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Two comments of mine posted today have been removed. Here is the message I was responding to:

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because this should be asked the vendor. SO is not Microsoft support.

This was a message by a 10K+ user in response to a topical question by a new user about Visual Studio, so I believed it worthwhile to address it directly.

I cannot copy and paste the second comment I had posted since both have been deleted, but found the first one in Google's cached version of the question:

@[username] Ideally the fact that you had to type up a custom close reason when you found that none of the predefined close reasons applied would have been a hint to you to check what is and is not topical here. This question is perfectly acceptable. It is well-known that Visual Studio is not stuck in 1998, so asking what's wrong when a program suggests otherwise is fine. If Visual Studio were stuck in 1998, then I might agree that a question on why it is would be better asked elsewhere.

My comments were deleted.

Should I not have done that? Should I, when I see a 10K+ user being rude to a new user, remain silent?

Or was the way I responded too rude, and could a differently phrased message have been more effective?

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    Just refrain from commenting further, flag and move on. Sep 23, 2018 at 20:24
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    Without seeing the question and the exact comments, it's hard to say anything specific.
    – BDL
    Sep 23, 2018 at 20:24
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    The moderator message you received is a stock message; it doesn’t include any examples of the offensive behavior that prompted it. That behavior is not necessarily limited to the incident you have in mind. You should consider responding to that message if you want more information, rather than airing it all here publicly. If you want to discuss it publicly, okay, but that’s not necessarily the best way to handle this.
    – elixenide
    Sep 23, 2018 at 20:25
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    @EdCottrell If this message was prompted by other comments of mine, I honestly have no idea which comments might have prompted it. If my assumption that the comments I referred to were the cause is correct, I think it would be good to have a question on Meta addressing that. Nevertheless, you are correct that it is an assumption. I will edit my question to limit it to the fact that my comments there were deleted, whereas the original comment I responded to wasn't, thank you.
    – user743382
    Sep 23, 2018 at 20:32
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    I'm pretty sure I saw that comment. This is getting seriously out of hand, what the heck are we going to do with that giant pita? Of course that question was on topic. Great answer btw. I've got your back, gloves are off. I'm going to start flagging his useless criticism on any question he doesn't know the answer to. Shame on that moderator. Sep 23, 2018 at 20:34
  • @BDL I am intentionally not linking to the question here, but I have added in the fact that it was a question about Visual Studio. Most questions about VS are topical on SO, so I am hoping that that is enough information about the question. I would be happy to accept an answer showing an acceptable response (or why no response is warranted), which I believe would be possible to put in an answer without seeing the exact comments I had posted.
    – user743382
    Sep 23, 2018 at 20:51
  • @HansPassant Appreciate the sentiment, thanks, but at the same time I am worried that that comment is going to be misinterpreted.
    – user743382
    Sep 23, 2018 at 20:53
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    Not sure how it could. If it reads like I'm quite pissed-off about this then it got the message across. Sep 23, 2018 at 20:56
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    A diamond has recommended to discuss this non-publicly. If you don't want that you should probably explcitly allow mods to quote the offending posts. Only then can the "rudeness" be judged. Sometimes rudeness does not come from what you express (you got some convincing support there) but how you express. And if this is really a case of unjustifed flagging and deletion, then having the quotes is in your arsenal and won't make you look bad. But do not dismiss the invitation to non-public discussion too fast. Sometimes ones own memory is kind of selective.
    – Yunnosch
    Sep 23, 2018 at 21:04
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    @Yunnosch I initially asked about a moderator message I had received. I considered Ed Cottrell's comment and acknowledged that it is possible that the message was not about those comments, so I did take that bit out of my question and asked for more details about that privately. Other than that, I do not object to having my previously posted comments publicly available and have found one of the two myself and included it in the question.
    – user743382
    Sep 23, 2018 at 21:09
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    I'm not really happy with the amount of downvoting on meta questions lately, where the questions are on-topic and well formulated. I feel that if people disagree they should rather answer accordingly and upvote that answer than downvoting the question. I know, that they can do anyway whatever they like, it's just what I think should be done instead. Sep 24, 2018 at 10:52
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    @Trilarion Would you then say to people not to downvote the answer if they disagree, and comment instead? If the answer is fair game to be downvoted, why not the question? It seems you're aiming at the general idea that "downvotes should not exist" :) I personnally downvoted because the premises of the question are flawed (the comment is not rude, and the idea that custom close reasons are a sign of wrongdoing is incredibly laughable), and upvoted the answers that addressed that. What's the problem? What's to say that the other downvoters did not do that? Sep 24, 2018 at 16:07
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    @FélixGagnon-Grenier Does the question really have any premise? Sure there is an example and the reaction of the asker was rude by itself (so probably not a good example) but the question is well formulated and open ended. It asks for advice. I could interpret the downvotes as judgement on question quality or on interest in the topic but it's disagreement instead. I think the agreement and disagreement part are better reserved for answers while questions should be judged by their technical quality and appeal of the topic. Nowhere do I write that I'm against downvotes. Sep 24, 2018 at 21:13
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    @Trilarion I mean, yes, I believe the title, "How to handle other users' rude behaviour [...]", along with the first quote, quoting a comment that should be rude, is what the word "premise" refers to. That's what a premise is. The question is because of that situation, the proposition of this whole post is that rude comment. Said comment not being rude, makes the premise fall. The idea that custom close reasons shouldn't be used is just further erring. Sep 25, 2018 at 1:55
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    @FélixGagnon-Grenier You could write an answer pointing all that out or upvote existing answers with similar content. Of course you can vote as you like. In the end, I think the lesson is that askers should write their questions as free of premises as possible and leave it to the answerers to make any definitive statements. Something along the lines of "Is this rude and if so how to deal with it or in case of is not, what should I have done instead..". This would be absolutely premise-free. I guess, it would still be downvoted. Sep 25, 2018 at 7:34

3 Answers 3

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If you believe a user is being rude in comments, flag the comment appropriately. Directly responding to it is not necessary.

That being said, there is a difference between being "rude" and being wrong. The comment is incorrect; that was a legitimate question for SO. But the comment is not being rude. The person did not accuse the user of anything. The closest to rude it got was "SO is not Microsoft support," but that's not really rude as simply wrong (well, yes we aren't "Microsoft support", but that was still a valid question).

Users with closing privileges have the right to employ custom off-topic close vote reasons. Even if they're incorrect or otherwise against site policy with regard to topicality. Obviously, we'd rather they didn't, but that's their privilege. So if you were to flag such a comment for being wrong, odds are good the moderator would have to dispute or decline the flag.

If a user is consistently misusing their close-vote privileges, a custom moderator flag should probably be employed. Hopefully, the moderators can stop a user from repeated, malicious use of their close voting abilities.

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  • "Even if they're incorrect or otherwise against the standards of the site." -- Er... what? Try voting "I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because you're trash" and see where it gets you. I certainly expect a moderator to step if that happens: of course custom close reasons have to abide by the site's rules. You're right that being wrong is not against the site's rules. Being rude/unfriendly is, and it's in the same spirit as the CoC's example of "You could Google this in 5 seconds" which is considered unfriendly regardless of its accuracy.
    – user743382
    Sep 23, 2018 at 23:18
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    @hvd: The "standards of the site" I was talking about are for close "reasons" that don't actually exist. That aren't actual site policy. Like "because we don't answer questions about Java" or "because SQL is a silly language and everyone should be using <insert target thing here>". These aren't rude, but they're wrong. And as I said, this particular comment doesn't really count as "rude". "You could Google this in 5 seconds" is a personal statement, suggesting the OP is lazy. The close reason we're talking about only suggests that the question is not appropriate for here. Sep 23, 2018 at 23:50
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    Ah, okay, that makes more sense. Still have to disagree though. I never took "You could Google this in 5 seconds" as just a claim of laziness, it is saying "Don't waste our time with this, go ask this somewhere else." Which is exactly what "SO is not Microsoft support" is saying as well. This is exactly the sort of thing the CoC was supposed to stop.
    – user743382
    Sep 24, 2018 at 0:00
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Most questions about VS are topical on SO

After breathing into a brown bag for a while, I think that is the crux of the problem. There is a small subset of users that do not think VS questions are on topic in the [c] and [c++] tag. They are very loud and persistent about it. You encountered the loudest there is.

One basic survival strategy is to never get into a debate with him. There is no point to it, I've never once seen anybody able to talk some sense into him. Users get enormously frustrated about it, he gets a lot of downvotes but doesn't care about it at all. He's been suspended at least once that I know of, made no difference.

The moderators do not know what to do about him anymore, even Brad gave up. Looks like this one decided for the other approach and stop you from elevating the discontent. Could work, you are a very responsible SO citizen. But done poorly, nothing particularly wrong with deleting your comment (message delivered after all) but s/he left the obnoxious one. Boo.

Only other thing you could do is what he did, use the company-approved weapons. Just flag the comment, you get to pick from "unkind" and "no longer needed". Tit for tat has some merit, but it is no longer needed. Your answer was fantastic, glad to see that 39 users in the [c++] tag thought so as well. Just a few loud ones that tried to stop you from posting that answer, sometimes they lose. You are a better man than me for trying anyway, after 13 years I lost my MVP award. Respect.

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  • VS is an IDE. I can understand that there could be questions that concern VS alone and not the underlying language used. Similarly, there are doubtless many questions about the source language used, C, C++ or whatever, where the IDE, (or not), is irrelevant. Some questions will cover both. Surely, it's not that hard to decide on the appropriate tag/s? Sep 24, 2018 at 1:00
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I'm the moderator who deleted the comments in question and sent you the private message that you mentioned in the initial version of this post. I'll try to answer your questions here.

Big Picture

As I said in the message I sent:

This is just a friendly reminder . . . . If this is a simple misunderstanding, no harm done.

This is not a major situation, and the comments in question weren't huge problems. That's why I just deleted them and sent a reminder message (without issuing a suspension or anything like that).

The Comment You Were Addressing

As you wrote above, the comment that triggered all of this was a custom-close-vote comment. It has been deleted, but it said,

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because this should be asked the vendor. SO is not Microsoft support.

This is not inherently rude. The second sentence is a little snarky, but the point is to express an opinion and give the (required) reason for the close vote. Whether the reasoning is correct is irrelevant; people can and do get these things wrong. I know I've done that from time to time.

In any case, the subsequent voting and other activity on that post make clear most users disagreed with the close vote. Generally, there's no need to address another user's close vote reasoning, even if it's wrong. This is especially true if it's clear that the close vote doesn't matter because most people disagree.

Your Comments

As you said, you had two comments. The first was,

@[username] Ideally the fact that you had to type up a custom close reason when you found that none of the predefined close reasons applied would have been a hint to you to check what is and is not topical here. This question is perfectly acceptable. It is well-known that Visual Studio is not stuck in 1998, so asking what's wrong when a program suggests otherwise is fine. If Visual Studio were stuck in 1998, then I might agree that a question on why it is would be better asked elsewhere.

I bolded the problematic language above. Frankly, it's snarky and condescending. It's certainly not constructive. It's also based on a false assumption that only the standard close-vote reasons are legitimate (or at least that exceptions are rare). But we allow custom close votes for a reason. We get wildly off-topic posts all the time that don't fit a standard close-vote reason; that's why the custom-reason option is here. Does it get misused? Sure. So do all of the others.

That first comment drew multiple "unwelcoming" flags, and I deleted it.

After your first comment, another user wrote,

@hvd: Non sequitur! Why do you think custom close reasons exist?

That also got flagged, and I deleted it.

You replied to that comment with this one:

@[username] They exist for when questions are off topic, but do not fit into any of the predefined reasons. They do not exist for when questions are on topic and therefore do not fit into any of the predefined reasons. When you want to use a custom close reason, please double-check which case you are dealing with.

That comment got flagged as "unfriendly or unkind." It was, frankly, kind of pedantic. When users simply disagree with each other about what is on-topic versus what is a question for a vendor, there's no need for a lecture about it. In any case, it was also obsolete after I deleted the comment you were addressing, so I deleted it as well.

For what it's worth, we (the ♦ moderators collectively) have also deleted some other comments on that post. The comments generally were getting a little out of hand.

Important point here: Your two comments were drawing flags, and they were both just a bit over the line in terms of the tone you used. That's why they got deleted. Neither one was terrible, and they ordinarily wouldn't result in a private message from the moderator team. We'd just delete them without contacting anyone, and everyone would move on.

Other Reasons I Sent a Message

The comments I've discussed were the immediate trigger for the message we sent, in that they are what brought you to our attention today. But, as I've explained in a private message, there are other, older comments that we also wanted to call to mind. I won't recap those here unless you ask me to do so because that conversation is confidential.

Conclusion

It's fine to disagree with another user's close-vote decisions, but we don't want Meta arguments to take off in the comments. The comments I deleted were heading that way, and the tone was off. Sometimes a comment isn't so bad, by itself, but experience tells me that the conversation is one reply away from jumping the rails, so it's better to go ahead and delete the entire back-and-forth. That's why I deleted the comments that looked like they were heading to a bad place.

This is not a big deal; please don't take it personally. We really do appreciate your contributions to the site, and our message was just a friendly reminder, nothing more.

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    "That's why I deleted the comments that looked like they were heading to a bad place." -- You didn't though. The original comment that I responded to you left up. That was exactly the sort of unwelcoming behaviour towards new users that the CoC was meant to address, as I explained on Nicol Bolas's answer. It has now been deleted. (I also have concerns about your decision to use a mod message for this, and have responded to that part in private.)
    – user743382
    Sep 24, 2018 at 5:16
  • As for "Generally, there's no need to address another user's close vote reasoning, even if it's wrong. This is especially true if it's clear that the close vote doesn't matter because most people disagree." -- That is the answer to the question I asked here, so thank you for answering, but it only became clear that most people disagreed after the comments had been posted. The comments were posted when the question had zero or one upvotes, plus another close vote for another reason.
    – user743382
    Sep 24, 2018 at 5:19
  • Anyway, understood that your answer is not to respond to such comments and if a close reason uses unwelcoming language, to do nothing about it, neither flag it nor respond. Not sure yet if I will agree, but I will keep in mind what you answered here.
    – user743382
    Sep 24, 2018 at 5:27
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    I flagged that comment, it was declined. "Do nothing" seems the proper course of action. It now looks like a perfectly normal Q+A anyway, that was harder than it could have been. Sep 24, 2018 at 6:55
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    @HansPassant Wow. So we have diamond moderators not only not enforcing the CoC, but actively using their powers to protect those who violate it. I was happy to consider the option that a moderator did not see fit to delete the original message because it wasn't flagged, but if it was, that is seriously disturbing.
    – user743382
    Sep 24, 2018 at 7:41
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    It might be too early to jump to that conclusion. Abusing the custom-close reason to post snark is, erm, innovative. I haven't seen it done before, not so sure the mods know what to do with it. This answer may well encourage a lot of other SO users to use the approach, that eventually ought to solve the problem. Sep 24, 2018 at 8:27
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    @HansPassant It is not too early to jump to that conclusion. At least one moderator is abusing the powers and trust given to them and I will not be accepting this. I have visited this site every day for over six years and worked hard to be a good citizen here. If the moderation team is not prepared to take their responsibilities seriously, my time here ends today.
    – user743382
    Sep 24, 2018 at 11:18
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    As I’ve explained, the close-vote comment was not great, but it’s a stretch to say that it was a clear violation of the Code of Conduct. It was not, by itself, an indicator that the entire comment section would soon go off the rails.
    – elixenide
    Sep 24, 2018 at 11:18
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    @hvd - the user is suspended, I'd count that as a satisfactory outcome. Looking forward to your future posts. Sep 24, 2018 at 15:51
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    @ FélixGagnon-Grenier feel free to flag passive aggressive comments too. A comment clean up is not difficult on the main site. On meta, people like the keep the comments. But debates and prolonged discussion on main is usually better off being trimmed and solved by posting an answer or closing the post.
    – user3956566
    Sep 25, 2018 at 1:17

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