-41

I've been thinking. New users start with 1 reputation. This means downvotes have no effect on their reputation, at least until we get their first upvote.

This network is gamified for a reason. There's a psychological effect on us when we see those reputation points rolling. It motivates us to create content with good quality.

But with 1 reputation point, there's no change in reputation from downvotes. Aside from the question/answer score, there's really no negative impact on content with bad quality.


My proposal is that new users start with 10 reputation. It's not much: Just enough that downvotes have a more distinguishable effect on first posts. Think of it as a small starting credit we give to new users, so they can better see the effect their content has on their reputation here. Much like the starting credits some paid platforms give so new users can get acquainted to how the platform works.

Naturally, I think this should probably come with a change on the thresholds for the first privileges one can acquire:

current threshold | new threshold | privilege
                  |               |
20                | 30            | talk in chat
15                | 25            | flag posts
15                | 25            | vote up
10                | 20            | remove new user restrictions
10                | 20            | create wiki posts
5                 | 15            | participate in meta
1                 | 1             | create posts

The other thresholds could be left as is, I think. Ten more points won't really make a huge difference for them.

It seems my proposal came of as "being more mean to newbies". Let me try to correct that.

This is not about "better punishing new accounts". It's about better teaching new users how the network works. Arguably, losing 10 points that you acquired via an upvote is harsher than losing 10 points that you already got for free. This also won't change a thing for new users that actually post good content: All the initial thresholds take the same amount of upvotes to obtain. Even better, they could feel the network is more open, since we did give them an initial 10 "we trust you" reputation points.

10
  • 3
    How would new unexperienced users notice the difference actually? Sep 19, 2018 at 18:52
  • @πάνταῥεῖ for one, It would show on your reputation history. Sep 19, 2018 at 18:53
  • 16
    They just want answers in 1st place. Unlikely they're going to look at their rep history. Sep 19, 2018 at 18:55
  • We can't for certain know that without actually experimenting. Even if it changes nothing for, e.g.: help vampires, some new users do care about their rep points. Implemeting this proposal would give them 10 points to "experiment" with. Sep 19, 2018 at 18:59
  • It would also make bad users more easily distinguishable: They probably would end up with reputation below 10. Sep 19, 2018 at 19:00
  • 2
    It's already easy enough to identify them by their question history. Sep 19, 2018 at 19:03
  • That requires a visit to their profile. Still more work than looking at their user card just below their post. But this is not even the point: It's not about finding bad content, but instead it's about stimulating good content. Sep 19, 2018 at 19:06
  • Related: Why doesn't rep go below 1?
    – Davy M
    Sep 19, 2018 at 20:05
  • I could have sworn that there was a feature request to let user reputation go negative, which was basically the same idea as this although this question starts 10 points higher. If anyone can find that other feature request, the answers there probably apply directly to this question.
    – Davy M
    Sep 19, 2018 at 20:16
  • @Davy I did see that question, and I completely agree with the answers. It's a lot harsher for new users to bury their account in negative points. I find a 10 point threshold (just a single upvote on an answer, or two on questions, to revert) is much nicer. Sep 19, 2018 at 20:20

5 Answers 5

8

Negative reputation systems are dangerous; Jeff knew this when he built the gamification aspects into Stack Overflow. In many video games, you have something like 'spawn protection', where you can't take damage for a little while until you move a few spaces away from where you entered, or a certain amount of time has passed. This prevents players from losing interest because they can't even get to the most basic of achievements.

For the site, we really need people to have and care about one account, as you said. If people went into 'debt' and their very first sense of positive ownership in the site simply went to 'pay off' some initial mistakes, well, that's not really all that incentivizing.

For reference, I recommend you read up on some stuff F. Randall Farmer has published, his insights into reputation systems are pretty closely aligned with quite a few assumptions that were made as the game aspects were built.

If one with a diligent and curious mind found themselves with sufficient spare time, they might even uncover a funny fencing match between Randy Farmer and Jeff Atwood, specifically about their respective levels of progress in said game :) But, that's an exercise for the reader.

20

I thought we wanted to get away from looking like we were mean to the newbies...

This doesn't work for a couple of reasons.

  • Downvotes aren't meant to be treated as a visible or public lashing of a person. If someone gets downvoted on a question or answer, then the question or answer is poor. End of.
  • Downvotes still count against someone in the context of a question or answer ban. In spite of their reputation not moving below 1, the likelihood that they get a question or answer ban increases with each poorly received question.
14
  • Sorry if my proposal came of as "being mean to the newbies". I mean quite the opposite: By giving them some starting reputation, we basically say: we trust you, have some points to get started. Sep 19, 2018 at 19:10
  • 1
    @CássioRenan: You say that wasn't your intent. You state that you want downvotes to have a more "visible" effect on first posts. Given that the vast, vast, vast majority of first posts are explicitly downvoted, what justification/good does it do to magnify that effect?
    – Makoto
    Sep 19, 2018 at 19:12
  • My justification is teaching. It is much harsher to lose 10 points that you gained via an upvote, than 10 points you just got for free. Check my edit. Sep 19, 2018 at 19:17
  • 2
    @CássioRenan: What are you teaching, though? "Your question was bad so I downvoted you and you've lost the trust the system gave you implicitly" is a pretty poor lesson to learn. Stack Overflow has an issue with teaching anyone anything at all about how good their question is, frankly. Let's not make that effort harder. Also, the network gives you 100 rep for free for every other site you visit if you have more than 200 on one, so you already get free trust rep for other sites. Not sure I see the benefit.
    – Makoto
    Sep 19, 2018 at 19:18
  • 1
    We're teaching, basically, that you lose reputation points if you post bad content. My reason stands: It is better to teach that by the user losing 10 "free" points than by him losing 10 "earned" points. For users that earned upvotes and care about their reputation, I think this is more welcoming, and for users that don't care and just want their answers, nothing changes, really. Sep 19, 2018 at 19:23
  • Yes, but people lose their keys all the bloody time. If downvoting actually carried the clear and precise connotation of this being poor content, then sure, this might work. Since it doesn't, and there are active groups out there which use it as a way to punish others, then your approach cannot work.
    – Makoto
    Sep 19, 2018 at 19:24
  • I really don't see "accidental" downvotes happening that often. Sure, it does happen, but it's debatable whether it does on a significant rate. The alt text for the downvote button is "This question does not show any research effort; It is unclear or not useful". I can't see anything being more "clear and precise" than that. It would also take 5 "accidental" downvotes to drain 10 reputation points. This would mean a lot of keys were lost that day. Sep 19, 2018 at 19:29
  • @CássioRenan: It doesn't take much. Questions get downvoted in spite of the fact that they're clear, explicitly on-topic, and reasonably scoped. Here's an example of one I answered yesterday. If everyone had listened to that first commentator, in spite of them not claiming to have cast a downvote, then it would be downvoted and closed by now. Effectively, I don't see anywhere your proposal actually helps someone like in the above question; they got dinged because two people didn't take their time to read their question.
    – Makoto
    Sep 19, 2018 at 19:36
  • Your evidence is anecdotal. It has no statistical significance. Sure, my proposal isn't perfect: It couldn't possibly help every user in every situation. I agree it would not help this user specifically (well, he would have 191 instead of 181 reputation, but I digress), but that's not really the point. In fact, it wouldn't make a difference to this user at all. Let me make a conjecture: New users, seeing the (small) loss in reputation, could be more inclined to delete first posts that are of bad quality by themselves already. Then try again with a (maybe) more well researched post. Sep 19, 2018 at 19:54
  • 2
    @CássioRenan: Deleting your post doesn't take the downvotes away. Downvotes only send the message that your post may be poor. It doesn't send the explicit message, "Your post is poor." This will likely exacerbate how often people run into the rate limit/ban wall, and won't guide them at all.
    – Makoto
    Sep 19, 2018 at 19:58
  • I do agree on the question ban argument, but deleting your post does give you your reputation back. Plus, if you argue that this won't guide anyone (you can't possibly know that, but I digress again), then for sure it isn't guiding anyone as it is. I also find that the message "your post may need improvement" is already a pretty good message, given that the "perfect" message you mention is impossible to achieve. In fact, since you assert it is already impossible, I don't see the relevance of discussing it. Sep 19, 2018 at 20:08
  • Anyway, I see people strongly disagree with me already, so I don't see the point of continuing this argument. I'm happy to let this question sink into oblivion. Thanks for lending me your time, and sorry if I came out as rude in any of my comments: It's definitely not my intention. Sep 19, 2018 at 20:12
  • That's fine; this was quite pleasant for a feature request which had been panned.
    – Makoto
    Sep 19, 2018 at 20:21
  • Thought I would find shingeki no kyojin or steins;gate in your anime list but no :/ .. there is at least Sword Art Online :p Sep 19, 2018 at 21:16
6

One reason why we don't let users drop below their initial reputation (Whether we let them go negative, or if they started with 10 and we let them drop to 1) is because we don't want to just label people bad users. Our hope would be that users edit their questions into good shape and learn to ask better questions. Hence the first line of the How To Ask guide: "We’d love to help you. To improve your chances of getting an answer, here are some tips..." (link)

This change would also make bad users more easily distinguishable. If bad users feel like they're being targeted, they are less likely to stay around the site, and thereby they are less likely to clean up their mess... I mean clean up their old questions through editing to improve them to the site's quality. They might leave the site altogether, or worse, create a new account and continue to ask bad questions. But if a user is able to retain their 1 rep and know that their questions are being judged on a per-question basis, then they are more likely to stay on the same account and try again, and hopefully improve.

1
  • Yes, that comment was unfortunate. I didn't mean it at all. You do have a good point, and I'm not sure I have an argument against it. Sep 19, 2018 at 20:16
6

Probably not a good idea.

The users who care are already frustrated enough by downvotes on their question, we don't need to make it worse.

The users who don't care don't care one way or the other.

-11

I like this idea because it would allow the reputation based filters like this one and the one I use to differentiate between new users and users who posted bad questions before.

Also, at present, three downvotes for a new user, followed by a (seemingly inevitable) pity upvote add up to 0+0+0+5 = +5.

With the proposed offset, they will be -2-2-2+5 = -1, closer to reality.

3
  • With the proposed offset, 10, -2-2-2+5 would result in 9...
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 19, 2018 at 21:48
  • It's the rep change, not the amount (in both cases)
    – user6655984
    Sep 19, 2018 at 22:33
  • 1
    @Welcome Well, the pattern New user, single post with 0 or lower score, and 6, 4, 2 or 1 rep is easily enough to spot for anyone experienced with the site. Sep 20, 2018 at 1:05

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