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For the past few years, we've been following a very well formed system for burnination based on Shog's long-term vision. The system has been very successful, and we have managed to complete many burninations successfully. However, while going through the meta posts on burnination proposals, I realized that the present system does not encompass all the questions. There are few posts where we, as a community, have no idea what we have to do. Check out this table:

----------------------------------------------------------
| Score    | 50+ questions     |       <50 questions     |
----------------------------------------------------------
| 20+      | Use Burn process  | Do it directly yourself |
| 0 - 20   |                   | Do it with top-user help|
| < 0      | declined          | declined                |
----------------------------------------------------------

We can now clearly see that there's a hole in the process which we are following. There are 233 questions which are scored between 0 and 20, and most of them fall into that gaping hole left in the burninate system.

What do you think would be the most effective way to handle the burnination requests which do not have a high enough score to follow the complete burnination process or are too small to take care of it ourselves?

"Do nothing and wait", seems a straightforward answer, but most of these are already many years old. Newer requests are being marked as duplicates of older ones which will never be heard of again. Most of the newer users would not know what the situation was back then, which prompted the request. Adding a [status-] tag to these would be very effective in not making users blame denvercoder9.

A few things to be kept in mind are:

  • adding a on a doesn't mean it is rejected outright for the rest of eternity. We can always recreate a burninate request, if the times have changed.
  • burninations take up a lot of our community's time, make sure you propose something which we all want to spend time on. (extending the present complete system to cover the <20-scored posts is not practical. With the current set of requests and no more, we need nearly 3 years to complete just those scored >20)
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    Another thing to keep in mind: How long after a request is made do you wait to do whatever is decided? A month? A year? How long do we give the request in order to get the required 20+ score? That could also be an important thing to consider. It should at least be written into the system that the minimum wait time is x but the action time could take longer. And so long as the action hasn't been taken yet, the request should be considered active.
    – Kendra
    Sep 4, 2018 at 16:30
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    The problem with this problem is that we are trying to give structure to the control mechanism of a system which was designed to be essentially unstructured, and are very inefficient about it, investing many humans/hour into stuff that shouldn't be needed to be invested in the first place. The actual problem is that the same criteria that is applied for tag destruction isn't a mirror of the one that is applied to tag creation! Fix the criteria for tag creation and suddenly tag destruction isn't that problematic.
    – Braiam
    Sep 4, 2018 at 16:35
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    If there aren't 20 people who support a burnination request, how high is the chance that enough people would participate in the burnination. Also, if there aren't 20 supporters, than the removal can't be that important.
    – BDL
    Sep 4, 2018 at 16:45
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    @BDL, Yup, that's one of the reasons why the 20 score cut off was proposed. Sep 4, 2018 at 16:58
  • @Braiam, see my post on that topic here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/366403/…
    – Luuklag
    Sep 4, 2018 at 17:40
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    or are too small to take care of it ourselves Do you mean "and are too large"?
    – BSMP
    Sep 4, 2018 at 18:01
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    @BSMP, I parsed it as "burnination requests which do not (have a high enough score to follow the complete burnination process) or (are too small to take care of it ourselves)" ... re-reading it, it does seem a bit unclear. I want to imply that we need a way to handle the requests which 1. Do not have a score above 20. 2. Do not have <50 questions in the tag (i.e. have >=50 questions in the tag). Sep 4, 2018 at 18:25
  • Well, you can remove one 20-vote burnination request: [no-duplicates] has apparently been made a synonym of [duplicates] so I guess that means it's been dealt with. Sep 5, 2018 at 2:13
  • @m69, I've actually seen that before, but the comments didn't want a synonym, so I left it without adding a tag. Sep 5, 2018 at 2:18
  • @Kendra Per the first link in the post, moderators wait until the score is 20, and then it is immediately added to the list. Once it's next on the list (a >1 year wait time, currently), it is featured. IIRC the wait time to get it to a score of 20 is 1 year; I agree it should be written out. I don't think we have a minimum wait time before featuring, out of practicality; the minimum wait time is effectively over a year anyway. If the list of >20-score burninations ever shortens to less than a month, maybe a minimum wait time will be warranted.
    – TylerH
    Sep 5, 2018 at 16:39
  • @TylerH I meant a minimum before whatever's decided here is applied- If it hasn't met 20+ by x time, apply whatever is decided on here. (I'm aware how it works now, sorry if my first comment was unclear.)
    – Kendra
    Sep 5, 2018 at 16:59
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    Burnination as a process is broken. The load is far too big for the user community to handle, and several tags have been recreated after being burned. What we need is for it to be harder to create all these bad tags to begin with. This would also allow a shift in focus, from demonstrating the harmfulness of a tag before burning it to instead demonstrating up front that it would provide value.
    – jpmc26
    Sep 5, 2018 at 18:10

3 Answers 3

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I honestly think that we are on the right track by putting tags up for burnination where the community clearly is in favor of removing those tags and declining those requests that don't get traction.

I also believe the community can be much more vocal and unsupportive towards burnination requests that have no use, is a waste of time, will not help anyone. Votes can be used more frivolous there, specially the down and close variants.

Looking at the criteria and the type of burnination requests in the identified gap I propose two extra process steps/actions:

  1. The gap you have identified is the no-one cares or the not a real problem category. For a tag that has enough traffic to have plenty of questions but doesn't generate enough annoyance for anyone to support its moderation, I would say a is in order. I see no reason to wait very long to make that call, let's say 6 to 8 weeks, given there is no answer.
    That will remove 128 results from the burnination backlog.

  2. If a burninate request has an answer (maybe also comments?) that is in support of burninating and has a defined approach of how the burn should commence I would argue that those requests can be kept around and allow them to reach the threshold over time or be handled when an interested party is volunteering to do the burn. For that we might need some stats to see how many users you need to burn x questions in y weeks. This is to prevent we burn users instead of a tag.

    When an interested party volunteers I propose they can be fast-tracked into the formal burnination process.

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    "declining those requests that don't get traction" note however, that sometimes, tag burnination wouldn't get traction if they are requested during high post featuring. I know I avoided posting tag burnination request if I saw several post featured to allow my request appear in the CB.
    – Braiam
    Sep 5, 2018 at 11:36
  • @Braiam Then again, if not even net 20 people click that upvote button over several years, the problem is probably not that big. If you wanted the tag gone, you'd probably find the request, even if it's old.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Sep 7, 2018 at 15:57
  • @BaummitAugen how can 20 people share their opinion if they don't know it even exist?
    – Braiam
    Sep 7, 2018 at 18:08
  • @Braiam My point is that they'll go looking for it if they care. If know one cares, there is probably no problem worth investing the effort of burninating a bigish tag.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Sep 7, 2018 at 18:09
  • @BaummitAugen What the eyes don't see, the heart doesn't grieve over. Most of the tag burnination request start because someone saw something and grieved over it, if others don't see it, they cannot grieve.
    – Braiam
    Sep 7, 2018 at 18:32
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A part of the solution lies in renewed exposure for long standing requests. Everything that is off the first few pages doesn't get exposed, so can't get any upvotes. To overcome new requests being dupe-hammered against fossils, we might want to consider adding a new status tag. [Status-Aged-Away]. We could implement this on requests older then 6-8 months, and then prevent them from being used as a dupe target. This would allow new requests to stay open for a period of time, possibly gaining 20 upvotes. During 6-8 months such a post is [Status-Pending], being available as a dupe target, preventing 6-8 simultaneous burninate requests for a single tag.

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  • I'm not sure if adding new status tags is clarifying a lot, specially if that needs code implementation on the SE side. That is not likely going to happen Soon™ (the CoC friendly version of 6 to 8 weeks). I also don't understand why duplicate closing against a fossil is a problem? If you want to wait for questions to reach the threshold (which seems to be the gist of your proposal) wouldn't duplicate chains be helpful to get more votes on the original proposal, leading to it reaching a score of 20 sooner?
    – rene
    Sep 4, 2018 at 17:53
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    To me, seeing a post being dupe-hamered means that its chances have been long gone. I lose intereat right then and there. Exception might be in case I feel really,really strong about something. In such a case I be more willing to support an exposed (on the first few pages) and open request, rather then something burried deep down in the caves of Meta. So my guess would be that posts on top of Meta gather upvotes faster, as they are more likely to ve seen, and perhaps exposed to main SO, through the interesting posts.
    – Luuklag
    Sep 4, 2018 at 18:00
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    I somewhat can see what you are implying, and I think it does make sense. There is a status-deferred which is already available that can be used instead of status-aged-away (which would need SE side implementation that can take 6-8 weeks as @rene mentions). I'm more concerned about the 6-8 months, do we really need to wait 6 months for a score to reach 20? In about 2 weeks, a burn request would get hidden in the abyss. I think 30 days is ample time. If you can't get support within 30 days, then it's clear that no one is that bothered by the tag. Sep 4, 2018 at 18:30
  • @BhargavRao, 30 days might also be fine as opposed to 6-8months. It was just a guess as to keep somewhat of a balance, as not to start a new request on the same tag every other week.
    – Luuklag
    Sep 4, 2018 at 21:54
  • It would be nice (but "Isn't Going To Happen Soon™") if the old burnination question were duped to the new and the upvotes of the old question were immediately transferred to the new (or were counted with the votes for the new question towards the vote count needed to activate full burnination). If the new question mentions that it is renewing the request from the old, and people didn't dupe-hammer it, it would help — but if an old request is renewed, it should immediately count towards the overall "this tags needs burninating" score. Sep 5, 2018 at 0:26
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    A 6-month cut off is in the right ball park. Longer than a year is really too long. I'd be OK with a lower limit of 1 or 3 months, but less than that doesn't give enough time for people to dwell upon a non-emergency issue (though in practice, after a week or so, those who are likely to get involved are involved). With a very few exceptions, burnination is not an emergency issue. Sep 5, 2018 at 0:29
  • @BhargavRao remember, that post that doesn't get to the CB, would not get much attention. A featuring for a couple hours is enough to give a request enough eyeballs to make sure anyone that was a stakeholder to know about the discussion.
    – Braiam
    Sep 5, 2018 at 11:38
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I think if it doesn't have 20 votes yet and it's too big to do yourself or with a few trusted individuals, then it needs to wait in line. We have plenty ouf outstanding > 20 votes ones to do. As its annoyance slowly becomes worse it will get more votes over time.

Just leave the burn request alone. It'll accumulate votes over the years. Then it will get done.

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