52

I remember a time before Stack Overflow. Not much, and not well; there are certainly people with more and longer experience of those dark days than me (I've even heard that there was a time where people were able to write code without access to the Internet!), but in those days there were thousands and thousands of random forums and other communities that were doing the job that Stack Overflow does now, with an only-slightly-smaller number of search engines trying to collate the vast amount of mostly-incorrect or outdated information.

A large number of those forums were definitely toxic environments. All the accusations that I understand are flying around about Stack Overflow recently applied to many if not most of those communities to an infinitely greater extent than I've seen them here. Yes, I say that as an 18-34 (OK, OK, 18-36) year-old white male, but I was also in the same demographic before Stack Overflow, and genuinely believe that this community is orders of magnitude friendlier, less toxic, more welcoming than those communities were.

When I discovered Stack Overflow, I lurked, I stumbled upon answers here via search engines. Long before I had a question to ask, I'd probably been here hundreds of times and had a general idea of which questions I'd seen that were good and which weren't. Still, when I eventually asked a question, I think it was a dupe or stupid in some other way and was downvoted fairly quickly. I guess my pride was probably dented a little but I deleted it and learned from that. I honestly can't remember if that happened once or a handful of times before I found myself with a positively-voted question, but eventually, I got the hang of asking half-decent questions.

That was the normal way of joining a community. All communities - virtual or real-world - have both written and unwritten rules and generally-speaking you only learn them by watching from the sidelines and/or getting it wrong a few times. Stack Overflow handled that universal fact of human nature significantly better than any other forum I'd encountered until then. It also happened to be a much better quality repository of information.

From the criticism, I see referenced here - and I've only discovered it from other people's links in Meta posts, not once have I encountered that criticism in my normal (yes, echo-chambered) life - it seems that the conventions inherent here are problematic for people. Like there's some other way of joining a community that I'm unaware of. How, for example, does one get started in the Twitter community, or Reddit, or Instagram, or Snapchat, or whatever other new-fangled things that I haven't ever really tried? Do they have indicators to show that someone's new, and does the community gently and delicately guide them? Do they have some sort of buddying system? Maybe people just ignore the content that doesn't fit the communities standards, because it's all so transient anyway, so it doesn't really matter? So - I guess maybe you don't ever get a negative, just nothing, or positive?

I hope this doesn't come off as a rant, or even an attack on the policy changes - I really don't think they're awful at all. I'm honestly not sure what my question is, other than "what's the alternative, and is that something Stack Overflow can learn from"?

9
  • 14
    I wont down vote, but I'm tempted to VtC. Not really sure what kind of answer do you expect. (Not that I agree or disagree with you, just that I'm not sure this works as a question).
    – yivi
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 10:32
  • @yivi Totally fair - I just felt like it wasn't something I've seen anyone say, and it feels sort-of relevant, and it's too long for a comment and doesn't make sense as an answer :) Also, I'm genuinely interested - is there some new way that people join communities now? Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 10:35
  • 2
    Interesting topic... I went through CompuServe and newsgroups before ever encountering a "visual" forum. CompuServe was monitored/moderated, newsgroups not at all. I've never even tried Facebook, Twitter et.al. - the "social media" so I have no idea beyond what I read about young people getting addicted and stressing out and having depressions due to mobbing or getting "down voted". Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 10:47
  • @DaveyDaveDave I can certainly tell you that some of those named communities are not necessarily welcoming either. Namely Reddit Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 12:17
  • 31
    Lol, the people on twitter, up to and including most of those that criticized SO the most harshly, are orders of magnitude more mean, condescending, and pretentious than any of what we see here. Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 13:24
  • 2
    This is an interesting question but not really about SO so I agree with the on-hold. Also, PerlMonks was fun so I wouldn't call the days before SO "dark days" ....hard to find answer days would be appropriate though ;) Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 14:07
  • @JGreenwell - fair comment, I've made a small edit that I assumed was implicit - by asking about the alternatives I was really trying to understand why some people consider Stack Overflow to be unwelcoming. Maybe that makes it a little more on-topic, maybe not. Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 14:11
  • 6
    @FélixGagnon-Grenier: For example, qualifying a project of "toxic wasteland" would get a question/answer downvoted or deleted here; but if you qualify SO of "toxic wasteland" for being "mean" on twitter, then hypocrites nod heads vigorously, and anyone highlighting the irony is quickly and harshly crucified by the "well-thinking" crowd. My only conclusion is that Twitter is a "toxic wasteland". Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 6:50
  • 3
    @DaveyDaveDave: From the behavior I have seen tolerated on various subreddits such as r/javascript where public shaming is endorsed by the mods or r/programming where FUD/ad-hominems are part for the course, I would think reddit in general is a wild-wild-west; best come with your guns, and only if you've got guts of steel. There are exceptions; r/rust for example enforces the Rust CoC... however I am not sure if this will scale well (disclaimer: I am a moderator of r/rust). SO, in comparison, is a haven... and I wonder if maybe, because it is better, it's not held to a higher standard. Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 7:00

2 Answers 2

33

Not that I'm an expert, or even use any of those services (except Reddit, sometimes), but:

Twitter, Instagram and Snapchat are about your individual account rather than some global board - I'm not sure there is even a global view of all the things. As such, any user enforces their own quality based on who they follow, thus their rules are more about gross violations than quality enforcement, where Stack Overflow tries to enforce both (and Stack Overflow is pretty harsh on gross violations, e.g. spam, account abuse or clear harassment). No-one will bother you if the quality on your account is terrible (generally speaking). I'm not sure all of those services even have the ability for users to communicate with each other.

Reddit is more similar to Stack Overflow. Reddit has, I believe, some general rules of the gross violations variety, but for the most part it's up to each subreddit to decide upon and enforce their own rules (whether gross violations or quality enforcement). The rules tend to be more easily accessible, in that they often appear on every page in the sidebar and/or in pinned posts, simpler, in that they tend to be fairly objective and easy to understand things (unlike "unclear what you're asking", "too broad" or "opinion-based", which is subjective and can be vague), less strict, in that they're not really trying to build a high-quality repository of questions and answer - it's about new posts and no-one cares about duplication or old posts in general. But even then it's often not exactly a welcoming experience. Plenty of people don't read the rules, plenty of people leave some pretty rude comments about that and plenty of people walk away in shame after their posts are downvoted into oblivion (even if "0 score with 5% upvoted" is harder to decipher than "-20"), although most of this will depend on the individual subreddit. Although it's not community moderated (not exactly, anyway) - you need to be chosen to be a mod, upvotes get you no privileges.

So, in summary, Stack Overflow:

  • Does different things

  • Is way more strict about quality

    This is probably the main cause of people thinking we're not welcoming, because no-effort posts tend to be fine on most other places on the internet, but it's also what makes Stack Overflow "good".

  • Has more welcoming comments

  • Does a better job of hiding the rules

12
  • 1
    reddits general rules are extremely seldomly enforced, if you look at what goes on in some subreddit and is publicized sometimes for years before reddit itself takes action.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 11:32
  • 3
    Hmm. Matches my expectations pretty much, I guess. So, if I understand correctly people using platforms that are just different, and maybe more toxic and less welcoming are complaining that this platform is too toxic and not welcoming enough, and we're getting all upset about it. I don't understand the world any more. Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 11:34
  • 21
    "hiding the rules" +1
    – Luuklag
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 12:36
  • 1
    I don't understand what you mean by "hiding the rules". Can you give examples? Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 13:30
  • 7
    @PaulRougieux Can you find where it says to not include "Thanks!" in questions? Would a beginner have read it before posing their first question? Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 14:20
  • 14
    @PaulRougieux Reddit displays all the rules on like every page (on some subreddits, at least). Stack Overflow displays like 2 sentences about rules when you ask a question, that's only displayed when you're busy typing the title, with 2 links titled "help" that points to the rules, which appear in the "help center" (rules are rules, not help). Then there's also all of the rules that only appears on Meta, which you generally need to go looking for specifically to find, or have someone give you a link. Seems pretty well-hidden to me. Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 14:37
  • 1
    @PaulRougieux As in Andrew's example, many of those things you find out by seeing someone has edited your post: an example of "the way we do it here", without criticism or rebuke.
    – Jan Doggen
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 15:32
  • 1
    Not exactly about the rules but asking for an "SE for dummies" reference where my answer nicely shows where we're hiding the stuff ...
    – rene
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 16:36
  • "This is probably the main cause of people thinking we're not welcoming" ? SO is 'not welcoming' because it's the famous place on the internet where expert programmers slam newbs. If you want to read (hilarious) scathing, sarcastic comments directed towards newbs, you come to SO and enjoy.
    – Fattie
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 7:12
  • @rene yes, when the main rule is to maximise the "value for future visitors" any contribution can be good, no matter what level of experience. If you don't respect other hidden rules, there are tools to correct or filter the trash you produce. For those who produce too much trash, send them a friendly reminder to refresh their mind IRL by walking a few days in the woods. ... This comment will probably be moved to the chat. Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 8:16
  • @Fattie As far as I'm concerned, it's infamy comes from the perception that experts are mean to newbies for being bad at programming (because some of our rules can make it seem like newbies aren't welcome) or nitpicking apart posts. If we can get outsiders to agree that the people we're mean to are doing the equivalent of taking a dump on the carpet, I reckon that perception will disappear (because I'm sure most people can empathise with being mean to someone taking a dump on your carpet). I think I've seen way more complaints about closed posts than mean comments. Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 8:34
  • 1
    @DaveyDaveDave Maybe it's a combination of not being used to rules being enforced, and that this community is focused on peoples knowledge and competence. It probably hurts more getting burned trying to contribute in a serious context than writing hogwash on twitter.
    – Alex
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 8:35
24

The big thing that your question overlooks is that it is stupid easy to join the Stack Overflow community. What's less obvious is how to be a valued member.

Stack Overflow was formed by programming professionals and enthusiasts for programming professionals and enthusiasts which has garnered a lot of attention from the outside world. It has become an easy target for people with an agenda.

Unfortunately, the people running the show do not care about the roots of the site and just want to turn this place into something like Planet Fitness and hope that established users just take the brunt of onboarding sub-par students, clueless project managers, and others.

As the Planet Fitness goal is realized (it's already started and moving in that direction) then all you will have left is the "blind leading the blind".

In regards to your social media question. People join those because they already know people who use it so in general your friend won't tell you to RTFM so you get this feel-goodie vibe because you are with people you know.

Let's face it, programming and general programming knowledge is a hot career prospect and everybody wants a piece so they come here with infantile questions because they have mistaken the question's subject line as Google search.

10
  • 4
    "so they come here with infantile questions because they have mistaken the question's subject line as Google search", right this is a precise example of the "SO Attitude". Top expert programmers like Zeus and myself, hate newbs. It's just how life is. The final paragraph here is a precise example of it. Perfect example.
    – Fattie
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 7:14
  • 5
    @Fattie That's not life, that's a bubble ...
    – Teemu
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 8:07
  • 2
    @Fattie I don't hate any person, I just really don't appreciate the crap content that flows in every minute and the indecency of the people's attitude posting the content. Recently, I came across an infantile question from a 25k user. How many more times could I possibly close syntax error questions with literally hundreds of answers already existing on this site? I think closing questions as dupes should be offered to users of 500 or more and incentivized with 1 point per successful closure until they reach 5,000 rep.
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 12:23
  • hi @MonkeyZeus . I would just say that everyone hates/dislikes, what you describe. However most folks on here, when addressing such issues, are (hilariously) scathing and sarcastic. That's why SO is famously scathing and sarcastic, when dealing with such, uh, idiots. (JOKE.) {I have no idea, and don't care, if you personally are. But overwhelmingly, SO is.} Regarding the point you make in the closing sentence of the comment, I'm sure you're 100% correct. There needs to be mechanisms to close/etc WITOUT adding funny (ie scathing) comments.
    – Fattie
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 15:30
  • 3
    I'm glad you found my post accurate. The biggest issue is that all of this is exhausting. If I had to put it into an analogy then pretend there is a swim team coach who is helping swimmers improve their free-style technique so random non-swimmers take notice of his/her coaching prowess and inundate the coach with questions which state "Please teach me how to move my arms in a circle while in the water. I see that they can move their arms in a circle, but how do I do it with my arms?" How many times do you expect the coach to be nice before saying GTFO to each person waiting to ask the same
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 16:00
  • 2
    There used to be a requirement of "minimal understanding".... It was banished. Many of the protections that we had were banished (Too Localized, NARQ, etc.). Close reasons are the gatekeeper to question quality.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 7:58
  • 1
    Finally an answer, I can wholeheartedly agree with (+1)
    – jAC
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 8:20
  • @TravisJ I think they should just cut the crap and rename the domain to halpMeOverflow so that competent programmers know to not waste their time here and just let the remaining users enter a "give me teh codez" rat race for reputation.
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 11:45
  • @MonkeyZeus - Meh. If you think about it, questions asking about refactoring are the primarily on topic ones. Questions which are, as you state, "gimme teh codez", can actually be very beneficial; even to competent programmers. The issue with code request is that it is truly involved in problem solving. The downside is that sometimes you get people who wrote no code asking for coded solutions, not very ideal.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 18:27
  • The upside though, is questions where there is relevant code, sometimes brilliant code, and the problem being solved is very complex. You just don't see those anymore, because of people being all up in arms about giving out code to others. But, let's be honest... competent programmers want to solve real problems, and they don't honestly give a crap about if it requires writing code.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 18:27

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .