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My thoughts

There's been a focus on new user retention. Which is pretty much what's been the crux of the issue since the welcoming blog all those months ago. The NetWork is concerned about new user attrition and the impact this is having on the site. This leads to the inevitable possibility there will end up being no viable site here.

These are observations and thoughts I've gleaned from reading meta and asking questions. They are not confirmed by the Team. They are not moderator endorsed. They're my observations as a regular user on the site.

I've been particularly curious as to why this year the network made such drastic changes to the formerly Be Nice Policy now Code of Conduct and a push to welcome new users. Then I read this. Are we creating divisions in our quest to make new users welcome?

Our attrition rate is concerning.

New users just don't stick around anywhere close to how they did a few years ago. I'm not going to post the exact rates, and I'm not going to post the exact metrics that we use to consider someone 'lost' as far as likely to re-engage, but I will explain it in very simple terms.

Let's say you have a bank account. Every month, $1000 goes into that account, and $960 goes out of it. You will never lose your income, and your expenses will always stay the same. Sure, you don't manage to save much, but year over year, it adds up, right?

Well, what happens if the income isn't infinite? Let's not talk about money, let's talk about users, the size of the market that we serve, and the rate at which it grows and replenishes. If we lose even 25% of the users we manage to convince to interact with our sites, and the number that try every day keeps going up exponentially, then it's only a matter of time before we burn through an entire market faster than that market significantly replenishes itself.

This is because people had really bad first experiences, and depending on how influential they are, we've lost them and possibly dozens more. It's difficult to calculate who won't try something because of this. But if we don't control this rate, we could (much sooner than later) say that the whole market uses, has tried and stopped using, or won't try our sites.

That is to say, there's a hard stop where you run out of people that are (1) interested in [topic] and (2) successful using your software, and the faster you hemorrhage new users, the faster you approach that point. This is where new users don't replace long-term engaged users that tend to just naturally move on after they've done all they came here to do. This "shrink" in communities is perennial and usually healthy, as long as you eventually move to more coming in than leaving.

My observations

From the beginning of the blog sequence, many long term users felt alienated and even criticised. It truly is a shame the network wasn't more mindful of this when they released the first blog. As yes, we do indeed need sustained quality, new blood into the community, but we also need to keep the backbone of our community strong.

It's a shame that the need to improve new user retention has been conflated with what has amounted to shaming much of the active community, the brunt of which has been felt by our active meta community.

As I see it, there's been a lot of angst and conflict. I'm looking to us as individuals and a community to shore up our efforts, to make positive changes. What can we do to look after ourselves as a community?

For many people it's ineffective tools. For others it's a lack of consultation. For other it's feeling ignored with a focus on the newuser that precludes the needs of the regulars. The rights or wrongs are unimportant, what we need to find are solutions. People want to know what unit is the 6-8? weeks, months, years? People need to feel heard.

One thing I am aware of is the network is listening closely. This is why I'm posting this. To give people a chance to speak up and say. Hey this is what I need. This is what we need.

So two questions:

What does our long term community need?

What does our long term community need to feel valued?

Note: Tim Post has written another answer which goes into further discussion about user attrition and site priorities that is relevant to this discussion.

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  • 18
    I've got nuthin'. Many suggestions have already been made on meta, and I have no hope that any new and useful ones will be added now. Makoto sums it up reasonably below:( Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:21
  • 23
    A high rep user said to me they thought the network needed to ask people what they wanted and needed. So I did.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:37
  • 26
    @YvetteColomb: Everyone seems to have freaked out behind the blog post and the CoC changes. (Oh yeah, I should add that below...) By and large the changes are realistically in-line with everything we've already done, but the tone and force in which the changes are coming feel like the long-standing members are just being...left out of the discussion as to the direction of the site.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:44
  • 69
    I think we're barking up the wrong tree. More and more users are not "professional or enthusiast" programmers. They are programmers out of necessity, working on school projects or an ad-hoc task in a non-programming role. Is the attrition rate in itself a bad thing? What I'd like to see is the attrition rate for those posting well-meant questions [no laundry lists]. Subjective, but important to differentiate.
    – jpp
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:48
  • 37
    @DavyM This is my last stand. There's been mammoth effort from the core users to help the site and it's too hard. Plus being insulted when trying to help really grates. It's like well. I'm not being paid and there's other things I enjoy in my life. I don't really need to come here and be downvoted and insulted. So.. well yeh. One last ditch effort. See what comes from it and decide.. do I want to keep trying here or spend more time doing other things. Which I think is what a lot of us are thinking.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:54
  • 16
    Isn't the elephant in the room the fact that we don't know how SE is monetizing the people that use the site. If we had more information on that, we (old users) might be more sympathetic to their problems - obviously, the site has to be paid for, and make a proffit for its investors, but its far from obvious that what they are doing at the moment will accheive this.
    – user2100815
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 16:02
  • 9
    @NeilButterworth aha yes read my answer meta.stackoverflow.com/a/373166/3956566 I suspect that the network traded views, site landings for quality as a source of revenue. Now they're ruing the day.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 16:46
  • 14
    Send a free T-shirt to all fanatic members.
    – Cœur
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 17:28
  • 12
    It seems to me the task ought to be to "make" better new users who ask good questions. This is the job of SO, not the users who act as tag curators. One key way - and one the site has done horribly for a long time - would be to prepare new users with some tips/bullet points on making good posts. Rather than abstract items, use the VTC list and top reasons posts are DVed: no code, image of code, too broad, no question, dupes, tools etc link requests and the like. If they read and act on it, great they should have a better experience. If not, its not my problem. Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 17:44
  • 12
    @YvetteColomb yes, I'm so, so tired of the whole issue. The buzzwords like 'welcoming', 'hostile', 'elitist', rude' etc. now just have me moving to the next post. I can no longer be bothered to reply. I can't even be bothered to close/delete the Sunday Slavery any more:( Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 17:47
  • 42
    @code " i ask a perfectly reasonable question" - you think it is reasonable, many others don't. This is the basic problem here.
    – user2100815
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 17:48
  • 26
    @codebeginner example please? The thing is, up/down voting is a necessary mechanism for quality control on SO. Would you believe that some users have never downvoted anything at all? Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 17:51
  • 7
    @YvetteColomb I certainly agree with your statement. I just only want to warn that flagging for every posts that they feel they get unwarranted downvotes (1 or 2 or 3 downvotes by different users?) won't be fruitful...
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 6:27
  • 8
    ... The bigger problem I see is the negative perception caused by downvotes. Downvotes are a very important part of how stack overflow functions/operates, and as such it's a rather difficult problem to solve. Nothing has been done yet towards solving that problem (plenty of things are in the works) and i'm not sure if there even is anything we can do about that problem short of educating the user asking the question before the question is asked or released to the wild
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 19:41
  • 20
    Methinks the hand waving may back fire. I watched 4 bad posts yesterday (varying levels and type of crap) all from hand wavers. All got DVed and closed but no one said a single thing as to why which struck me as very unusual. So, given that some people see DVs as "vicious", a form of "attack", a source of suffering (SUFFERING!), they at least do learn why the DVs/closure. People seem less inclined to engage with the hand wavers Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 15:21

24 Answers 24

160

2 years ago, SO the company reached out to the community with this:
Let's Plan the Second Iteration of the Stack Exchange Quality Project!

That thread is great as it holds all the answers. Really. The majority of the highly up-voted answers can be summarized as:

  • Better quality of questions, by helping new users improving.
  • Better tools for site moderation, such as easier ways to close posts, handle duplicates etc.

These two things is what we keep hearing over and over, in all these meta threads. It is definitely what veteran users are asking for. And so what to do next seems crystal clear: focus on those two things!

But what does SO the company do? Completely ignore everything said. Instead the focus during the past 2 years has been mostly peripheral projects like Documentation, Teams, Careers, Developer story, top/bottom/side bars, Welcome Wagons.

These projects didn't originate from the community and that's probably why they all met significant community resistance. Because nobody asked for these features and plenty found them... mildly useful. While the community would rather instead see focus on the two above mentioned things.

The feeling I've had since the "Let's Plan..." post until this day is that the SO community and SO the company have come to live in completely different worlds. The community and the company seem to have fundamentally different ideas of what the site is about. It's strange how we ended up there; the site didn't use to be like that. But I don't think it can be denied that there's an increasing friction between the community and the company.

A logical explanation would be that all these ideas nobody asked for originate from some pointy-haired boss who insists that their poorly considered ideas must be implemented, come hell or high water. I don't know if this is true - it is something that SO upper management & board must ask themselves.

Given that the current CEO's only participation on meta since forever was to post a highly controversial, off-topic post about politics in January 2017, start from there - that's not exactly how you lead by example. The post made a whole lot of customers lose further confidence in the company, even among those who agreed with the political, off-topic content.

On the positive side, recent projects like the experimental mentor project and “Ask a question” wizard prototype is exactly what the community keeps asking for. It took 2 years of fooling around until these landed though. But as long as such projects are given priority, instead of some "right side bar", the company is heading in the right direction.

The bottom line is that new users will go to where the most technical expertise is found, and that's currently among the veteran SO users. Currently, there exists no better programming site. By giving those veteran users what they want: better quality of questions and better tools, they will stick around and attract new users, or make the ones who left the site come back.

New user attrition is not nearly as serious a problem as veteran user attrition. If a new programming site with higher quality standards and better moderator tools pops up, guess where the veteran users will go. The new users will soon follow.

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  • 20
    I've upvoted every answer that is not deleted, as I appreciate them all, the contributions and perspectives, people still struggling to improve the site. I wasn't going to accept an answer. It's just you sum it up perfectly (for me anyway).
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 15:50
  • 17
    «The post made a whole lot of customers lose further confidence in the company, even among those who agreed with the political, off-topic content.» Absolutely; I am squarely in this bucket. And thank you for really highlighting the circumstances around "Let's plan the second...". This is an even more explicit rendering of what I was trying to say in my answer. That post is emblematic in my mind of what's been going on (read: wrong).
    – jscs
    Commented Sep 1, 2018 at 14:12
  • 10
    I wish I could bounty this. The amount of user tools that exist to work around the limitations of the site, especially the moderation tools, is remarkable. And the gap between new users' expectations and what's expected from a high quality question (or even just an okay-ish one) certainly hasn't become smaller. The powers that be have been told about the same issues for years now. Unfortunately, asking for feedback remains easier than actually listening. Or so it seems.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Sep 3, 2018 at 17:10
  • @BaummitAugen yeh I miss being able to bounty on meta. maybe we need rep rewards for meta contributions?
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 8:13
  • 1
    @YvetteColomb Maybe, but that would not exactly be No. 1 on my wishlist for this site. I'd gladly spend my rep from main, too.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 8:56
  • @BaummitAugen same, but there's that issue of translating meta rep to main etc etc etc
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 10:50
  • 2
    @YvetteColomb That's a problem we can tackle once reviews in the CVQ stop expiring. =D
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 11:05
  • 2
    I am totally agreed with the answer but I love last two paragraphs. Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 11:58
  • 12
    It's strange how we ended up there Jeff Atwood left the company and Joel is now, apparently, leading it like a VC capital driven company. The soul is bleeding out.
    – usr
    Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 20:44
  • @Lundin "The majority of the highly up-voted answers can be summarized as" might be the problem. Asking "what the users want" really only serves the entrenched users, not the new users. If you ask the new users what they want, generally it's just "help", not approval by a few hundred thousand random individuals. Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 15:35
  • 2
    @TerryCarmen: Sure, but SO isn't here for either new users or entrenched users. It's here for anonymous visitors from search engines. New users are highly unlikely to care about anyone but themselves; established users generally have somewhat less stake in their own (especially immediate) self-interest, and a lot more stake in general site helpfulness. Of course, this is limited by their different perspective on what actually counts as helpful. But that's still a better source than the endless sea of desperate deadline-evaders who need SO to give them a personalized answer right now. Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 21:45
  • 2
    @TerryCarmen The argument here is rather that if veteran users are kept pleased, the technical quality of the content will be upheld, which in turn will benefit everyone. For the user who just wants "help", it means that they could either get several high-quality answers by domain experts, or a few low quality answers from other confused students, if any answer at all. Similarly, those who stumble upon the SO post through Google will find high quality code, instead of the usual, factually incorrect trash tutorials you can find anywhere on the web.
    – Lundin
    Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 8:40
  • @Lundin We might be better off to issue voting rights periodically to random users so no individuals end up on a power trip or feel like The Guardian of The True Answer. I believe Slashdot does this. Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 12:45
  • 16
    I don't know how much of this I (am allowed to?) agree with, but it is a very, very funny summary. I do think Tim Post has explicitly acknowledged in his posts that there was a loss of focus on core Q&A, and that seems like a fair assessment from my viewpoint as well. One of the reasons I'm actually oddly excited about the social media controversy pushbacks is because they can energize and galvanize work on the core Q&A part of the system. There are many less-than-good ideas on meta (as always, the 90/10 rule) but also some absolute 💎 gems of ideas as well that really should be followed up on Commented Oct 24, 2018 at 11:20
253

How about a voice?

The new user indicator was implemented a record four days after discussion was solicited and the input of users who were critical or skeptical of its implementation doesn't seem to have been heard.

That alone has really put me off of this whole push towards user retention, because it doesn't make sense to me. Users are a dime a dozen. We want to be sure that the users who actually post good and answerable questions can stick around. Saying that they're a new user - as many of us pointed out - was addressing the wrong problem in the wrong way.

There are other instances in which community discussion is solicited, but it doesn't seem like that feedback is truly taken on board.

It's disheartening to want to come back and suggest improvements or voice an opinion on something just to get bowled over and feel like my voice wasn't worth anything.

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  • 138
    This, this, 1000 times this. We're at a point where new users are listened to by default, by the simple nature of being new. Older contributors, that were here for the summer of love (for example) aren't listened to anymore. We need more retention,sure. But what makes people come to stack in the first place? It ain't the newbies. It's the veterans. Don't alienate a big portion of your veterans to keep new users no matter what :/
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:04
  • 17
    You get the same treatment when you ring up Sky - “but I’ve been a customer for 10 years, why can’t I get the same deal as the one you’re advertising for new customers?” It’s sad, but that’s the way of the world now. Loyalty means sod all.
    – Clive
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:12
  • 21
    @Clive which is fair. But for your cellphone provider, you as a user is just a user, worth as much as any other customer with the same plan. On stack, a user with experience (let's take JonSkeet, randomly) is worth more than one new user, simply because of the number of other new users it attracts
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:14
  • 4
    @Patrice Yeah as analogies go it’s not the best :) But I see this same thing in all walks of life, not just SO and not just my TV provider. Everyone is bothered about attracting the new customer base, not looking after the existing one (however important they are)
    – Clive
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:19
  • 47
    note to readers who may feel like this funny "request for feedback" about indicator is just an isolated, one-off example: my recent study of the site features change log suggests the opposite, namely that it is more like a tip of the iceberg
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:19
  • 8
    @Clive I used it myself earlier somewhere, so I don't think I am in a position to really diss it too much lol. But it's definitely how it feels... If you're already a contributor, we have you we don't care. We'll turn heaven and Earth to make new contributors happy and make sure they stay though, no matter who we aggravate in the process... Definitely disappointing :/
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:21
  • 3
    Yes it certainly feels like that @Patrice, to some degree at least
    – Clive
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:21
  • 4
    @YvetteColomb without knowing more context less experienced readers may complain that single example is not enough to make such a big deal, like, you know, "we all make mistake, isn't it overreaction to make a big deal of it". I commented mostly to expand with more details on the part of the answer that says, "There are other instances in which community discussion is solicited, but it doesn't seem like that feedback is truly taken on board."
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:27
  • 40
    @Yvette honestly I couldn't do a better job than Makoto. I think a post asking for feedback for a new feature, where most of the reactions range from 'it won't help but I don't truly care' to 'i think it's bad' and yet it's still implemented after 4 days is the perfect example.... Your post says that the network listens to feedback.... It seems like they hear the feedback, they don't listen to it. The new contributor badge was a done deal when the question for feedback was posted. Whether the community agreed or not,it was coming. Is that listening? :/.
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:30
  • 5
    I mean, I am going through the answers, sorted by votes. I am at like answer 10 or 12 and so far no one said that it's a good idea, or that the implementation makes sense. How is that listening for feedback, really? :/
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:31
  • 3
    @gnat ah gotcha. Liked your mse answer btw. That's also why I link things in the meta posts, for newer or future readers who may lack context. It feels very much like repeating myself, but the context is important. .. maybe.. the people who are likely to read and vote are the same bunch of people anyway and we all know what's going on. It's hard. Too hard. And I don't know if there is a solution anymore. Sadly.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:33
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    @gnat: Your study was eye-opening. Wow.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 16:05
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    "and feel like my voice wasn't worth anything" It really isn't. What does constructive criticism of a design change look like?
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 20:11
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    @Patrice: "no one said that it's a good idea, or that the implementation makes sense." They didn't make this post because they were considering doing it; they made the post because they were going to do it, period, the end. My problem is not that they did it despite criticism against the idea. It's that they did it despite many suggestions for improvements of it. I can understand ignoring "don't do it" posts. But there were plenty of "maybe make it less obnoxious" posts that elicited no commentary from anyone. And if nothing about the design was flexible, why ask for feedback at all? Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 15:26
  • 17
    I think this extends, too, to the way that [feature-request]s are (or more to the point, aren't) handled. I've seen case after case of good, clear, relatively straightforward Meta posts requesting a sensible feature that just go unacknowledged for months or years. I understand that not everything can be implemented at all, let alone immediately, but a process where requests are given even the most basic of acknowledgement by the powers that be would go a long way.
    – Sam Hanley
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 20:38
159

I've only been around for about a year and a half, so I may not be a very good representation of the Long Term Community, but let me share what brought me in initially, what's kept me here, and what I need to stay (or rather, what's pushing me away).

Why I appreciated Stack Overflow from the get-go

My first question on Stack Overflow was a mess. I had something I needed to do at work, and I thought "It would be so much easier to do if x were possible." The main issue was this; I had experience with scripting languages, and recently had gotten this new job, and although most of my work could be done in scripts, some of the main components of the product are coded in C, which I had almost no experience with. And there was one process that had two versions; a C library function that was called routinely, and a script that did almost the same thing that could be called on demand. But there was an error in the script that worked in the C code, and I needed to fix it, and didn't know what I was doing.

So I made my question, posted it, and I remember clearly a user commenting "No offense, but it seems you have no idea what you are doing." At first I was taken aback. In my pride, I thought "How dare you accuse me of not knowing what I'm doing?" and I was upset for a couple hours about that. I'm both a proud and a sensitive person, and I don't ever like being told I'm wrong. However, after I let the steam boil down for a bit, I realized that yeah, I had no idea what I was doing. I had called C functions methods, I hadn't used the term Library correctly, and I had tried to hand wave away the possibility of just modifying the C code in my question to do what I want because I had no idea what I was doing and didn't want to deal with it.

Once I could swallow the fact that I was overreacting to someone who just pointed out the obvious reason why I couldn't solve my own issue, I realized what I needed to do. That I couldn't just hope people here would do my job for me, so I read up on the docs, figured out what I needed to do, and solved my issue.

So what of Stack Overflow? What was my opinion of them if I ended up solving my own question? I left that first day with a tremendous respect for the community who actually did help me help myself, and I deleted my poorly asked question. And I understood that if I had a question in the future, I needed to find out all I could about it before hand.

What's kept me here

From my first experience I learned something valuable: the importance of research before asking a question. And you know what? Nearly always I started asking a question, I never made it to the "Post your question" button. This is because as I tried to adequately explain my question so that it was simple to understand and showed that I had done my part in researching the question, and it turns out, as I would streamline the question, I often found my answer here on Stack Overflow already.

You see, I wasn't scared of asking a question, I was scared of not doing my research before asking a question, because how embarrassing would it be to ask people to waste their time helping me when I could find that same content with a few more minutes on google.

I learned that Stack Overflow has an amazing repository of high quality questions and answers, and often my searches turned into "xxx concept site:stackoverflow.com" instead of general google searches, because whenever I ended up on Quora or Reddit or Yahoo Answers or any other forum or other medium on which answers were posted, they often didn't work or were low quality or were correct but surrounded by spam. Sure, I would search the documentation, but I found strong, succinct, and understandable questions and answers here on Stack Overflow. Probably daily I was on here, not posting questions, but finding answers.

I've also enjoyed answering what I can. The gamification of rep didn't last long for me as something I was explicitly trying to attain, but when I see something I could answer, I did. With time, as I realized how the site works, I found that many of the things I could answers should be closed as duplicates instead of being answered, or that they were off topic to begin with, and I began helping with moderating. The more I moderated, the less I answered because I realized that often I was answering things that I really shouldn't have been, rather, I should have closed as a duplicate. Well, a few steps on the learning curve later, and I found Meta.

I've become very active and vocal on Meta. My introduction to Meta actually was a huge misunderstanding on my part, and I got into a bit of an argument with Servy, which, if any of you have gotten onto the wrong end of a discussion with Servy, you'll find out a few things; Servy is always extremely respectful no matter how you reply, and Servy is basically always right. I wasn't very respectful, and even though I had people upvoting my content, I eventually deleted my answer when I realized how wrong I had been. But I stayed around and have amplified my understanding of how Stack Overflow works, and why it is so amazingly good at what it does.

I've spent a lot of time on Meta since then, trying to help users understand what they're doing wrong, helping evaluate questions or answers that are getting downvoted, giving opinion on proposals for feature requests or other site changes, helping to verify bugs, and so forth. The reason being that I respect Stack Overflow and find it an essential tool at times to find the answers to things that I need to do my job, and I want to help preserve it and keep it high quality.

What I feel is pushing me away

Then the first welcoming blog came out with the big 'ol title: "Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming. It’s Time for That to Change."

What? What on earth was this talking about? What are we doing wrong?

I was confused because I hadn't ever seen anything on Stack Overflow that was trying to chase people away. I had only seen productive content and good moderation that helped to encourage good content and improvement to bad content. I also had no idea what people were talking about when they said that people are scared to post on Stack Overflow, because I had friends in school who used it without ever saying anything negative about it, and now at the workplace most people use it and no one has ever made any sort of comment about getting offended or treated badly by someone here. I mean, it's not like we chat about Stack Overflow over the water cooler, but with all this supposed negativity that is being emanated by users, I had at least 50 examples of people in real life who use the site and 0 examples of negativity.

When I asked about that, somebody linked me to a Reddit Rant about someone offended because their question was closed as a duplicate. Maybe it's because I'm a member of a church that has been persecuted greatly and I've come face to face with how misinformation about my faith gets distributed and thrown in my face with hate added in, but I'm immediately skeptical of some random person or people becoming very vocal about how bad something is. I do the same with politics, news, social media -- I let the rant pass by the wayside and try to find the evidence for myself. And the sore truth was that we had a few people on Reddit ranting about something that was ultimately the OP's fault for not searching their exact question title first. (Any why wouldn't they do that? Reading has always been a faster operation than writing)

I've gotten many more examples put into my face of Stack Overflow being unwelcoming, and I understand now that there are plenty of people who feel that way, I guess I was just in too small a sample size to see it for myself.

But here's the thing: The statements in the article make it sound like we as members of the community are at fault for being unwelcoming, that we must be doing something wrong, because people are getting offended. And that's insulting to people who are just here to help and have never bode any ill intention to users, new or otherwise. And the article and those that have followed have never placed any burden on the users who feel we are unwelcoming because they post bad quality content and get offended when we point it out and offer them suggestions for improvement or close their question as a duplicate. The people who are getting blamed are the users moderating and helping those users who are getting offended.

And even though we've had our quibbles about it, I think that the members of the Stack Overflow Community have been trying our best to be more welcoming.

But it's not working, reason being, people will get offended and take things as personal attacks if the want to, no matter how welcoming we try to be.

Take for example this question posted to Meta last week: Why are drive-by downvotes taken seriously when it is obvious what happened?. It's now deleted, so here is what I scraped before it disappeared for the <10K users like myself:

So much for being welcoming...

Nobody posted anything mildly offensive, and the OP had a couple comments removed that were offensive (If I recall correctly, their first comment had a term like "Dickheads" or something like that, but it was swiftly deleted). However, the OP managed to get offended at everything people had to say, and proceeded to insult people, calling them hostile and patronizing, no matter how much users tried to help.

And, to make things worse, that very same Welcoming blog got thrown in our faces again, as "evidence" that the person was right and we were all wrong for trying to help.

This isn't an isolated occurrence, I see it a few times each month and probably a few more get by me undetected. And the flow is always the same. A user who doesn't understand the rules posts an off topic or bad question. People comment with improvements on the post and downvote their question. The person comes over to Meta to ask why. The person receives responses as to why, and gets offended.

But instead of anything being done to help address this problem of long term users trying to help and being verbally abused for it, we get the Corporation telling us that we're wrong and being rude and mean and getting a few users' comments thrown at us as evidence that we're mean people and banners forced down our throat telling us that we don't understand the Be Nice policy.

Quite frankly, the more I'm told that I'm being mean no matter how nice and respectful I am, the less I want to participate. The only reason why I'm still around is because I know that Stack Overflow is an amazing repository of high quality questions and answers, and I don't want to just abandon that because the people in charge are forgetting the purpose of the site and are giving into trolls who refuse to follow the rules that keep the site high quality.

Disclaimer

Of course there are some bad apples. Just as there's this small very vocal community of Stack Overflow Haters who post all over the internet about how offensive Stack Overflow is, there are also a few members who get their kicks by trolling people and being rude to them. But lumping all of us Experienced users into the same group as those people and telling us that we're being unwelcoming, that we don't understand the code of conduct, that our moderation techniques are harmful, while at the same time validating the people who claim that downvotes are personal attacks and that closing a question is offensive... Well that hurts. And it's very discouraging.

What needs to happen

At this point, I really don't know. I've been vocal against certain changes and propositions that demonize the community for a while and have seen the changes stay and the propositions get implemented. I've tried to be a lot more diplomatic in my phrasing as of late. For example, in my recent post on the Meta Stack Exchange, which spurned from what was a criticism that there had been no publication about any sort of metric by which to measure the efficacy of the New Contributor Indicator, I tried to be more diplomatic. Instead of criticizing the issue I saw, I offered a solution, with the invitation for people to share their ideas on how we could gather data to evaluate the utility of the New Contributor Indicator: Let's use the Snark Detector to actually find out if the Contributor Indicator is having any effect where we want it to. But that post has been met with upvotes from community members and silence from any developers or people on the Welcoming Committee who could have said "We will do that" or "We are planning to do it another way way" or some sort of indicator that they care to evaluate if the New Contributor Indicator is useful or not. Maybe I'm at fault for not making that purpose direct enough, but more direct critiques of the feature aren't really getting much of a response either.

At the end of the day, I don't know what to do. I only can recognize the fact that I think you, Yvette, are the first person to openly recognize that much of the movement "has amounted to shaming much of the active community, the brunt of which has been felt by our active meta community." It feels nice for someone to finally recognize that all these efforts to make Stack Overflow more welcoming has been having a negative effect on the users who are making it more welcoming.

TL;DR

Yeah, this is really long and I don't really expect you to read all of it, especially in one sitting. So if you're just scanning for the TL;DR, here's the point:

Stack Overflow is an amazing repository of high quality questions and answers, and helps many many people. The general community is very welcoming, helps people improve their questions, and does a good job moderating the site. But people are still getting offended at things that basically aren't offensive at all. In an effort to help those users who turn away from the site, the long term users and their attempts to help people are getting labeled as unwelcoming and mean. And we don't have a very good recourse to do anything about it, and changes keep getting implemented to help the people who are getting offended at the site and validate their concerns, which at the same time validates their criticism of members of the community.

What people need to understand is that we don't get our kicks by being mean to people and downvoting and closing questions. We're earnestly trying to help, and we aren't attacking users. And I sadly don't know what we need to do to make that obvious to the users and the Management who keep implementing changes and features to tell us that we don't follow our own Code of Conduct.

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  • 3
    read the tldr, will go forth into the adventure of reading the full post. :)
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 15:42
  • 24
    Thank you for such a long and well written answer. Many of us have ricketty starts on the main site and meta. In terms of your answer, I think at this stage anything goes in terms of what you find helpful to make your point. There's so much unhappiness on the site that we need to at least be able to express that in free form (hence the open ended question). I'm hoping changes are made soon. As I can't keep this up either. It's exhausting fighting and pushing for change. For the record. I don't think I'm the first person to openly mention the shaming.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 16:00
  • 2
    Here's the deleted question (with a few more comments): i.sstatic.net/yz9fA.png
    – Rakete1111
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 16:11
  • 48
    @NeilButterworth With all due respect, I am a member of this community and I made it clear at the start of my post that I am speaking for myself. If new users ridiculing people who want to help and citing the Welcoming blog posts as evidence for their insults towards us and that affects me, then it is of course exactly on topic for the basic issue here, which is addressing what members of the community need. I need to stop being demonozed, and I need the corporation to stop giving ammunition to new users to justify their insults towards us. That Meta post is a good example of why.
    – Davy M
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 16:57
  • 5
    @Neil such a post can highlight part of the problem though: some users will simply never accept to not have what they want. If we try to be welcoming of everyone,including these users with unrealistic expectations, then short of becoming a code writing service, we'll never be welcoming to all. I feel like, partly due to expectations, and partly due to the rep stack sometime has online, people come here already on the defensive, almost looking for a fight, or expecting one at least. That coupled with the weariness of long term users isn't a good mix for anyone
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 17:11
  • 21
    The annoying thing about this answer is the fact I have to scroll so far to give it an upvote.... (for the non-mind readers: I think this is a good and useful answer) Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 17:20
  • 17
    Your comment at "49 minutes ago" from that deleted post (very near the bottom of the scrape) is precisely what I said when the new CoC had its first review. "It doesn't matter what you say or how you say it if the other person is looking to get offended." And that's what happened in that question, clearly: Carl took offense at literally everything. Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 17:57
  • 22
    <h1><blink><font color="red">Quite frankly, the more I'm told that I'm being mean no matter how nice and respectful I am, the less I want to participate.</font></blink></h1>
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 19:33
  • 4
    @NeilButterworth Far too long? Too long for what? For reading?
    – Clonkex
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 23:11
  • 16
    A long, but worthy, read. Your experiences with SO closely mirror mine - in my case, I have often found that writing a question has a "rubber duck debugging" effect whereby putting my problem and solution attempts down in a coherent format, suggests a new avenue of exploration that ends up solving said problem.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 9:08
  • 21
    If they cite Twitter or Reddit or any sort of forum in which people are complaining, that rolls off like water on a duck's back. But when they can say "Turns out that SO has even blogged about [this...] It's pretty bad when a company admits that it's own community have a reputation for hostility..." that's when it really hurts. And I can't refute that, because the person is right, the company is telling us that we are being unwelcoming, over and over and over for the past few months.
    – Davy M
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 16:09
  • 9
    @DavyM: It should also be noted that the person you're talking about was in part talking about the Meta Effect (ie: posting on MSO attracting downvotes from people who would not have otherwise seen the question). And I can't say that I disagree that the Meta Effect is rather unhelpful. Each individual user's actions may be justified, but the overall effect of their actions discourage people trying to get help. It says something about our community that we accept that, if someone genuinely wants to ask how to improve their question, they must sacrifice reputation to do so. Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 16:26
  • 12
    @NicolBolas People who are clearly putting forth as much as they're capable of into asking a good quesiton, but who fail, and who come to meta with specific questions asking for feedback and help in asking a better question, basically always gain reputation in the process. It's the people who don't take the time to craft a good question, and then when it does poorly, go to meta and just say, "my question got downvoted, how do I fix it?" and expect someone else to make it all better. Asking on meta for how to fix your question isn't a replacement for actually trying to ask a good question.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 21:01
  • 7
    @TemporalWolf I've seen thousands of questions of people asking for help fixing their questions. Often the questions are just bad questions, often their request for help is not well formed or well researched. When those things happen, they are indeed usually making a bad situation worse. But while that's the most common situation, I've certainly seen many a well asked meta question asking for help result in help, and people who are receptive of feedback and making improvements result in said positive feedback to their question (in the form of votes).
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 21:26
  • 6
    @TemporalWolf A lot of what is required is a willingness to admit mistakes when you come to Meta. If you don't come with a receptive frame of mind, it usually shows in your question, and people aren't stupid. I think it's a shame that it translates over to main sometimes, but only sometimes. Quite often, meta posts are rants about how SE works, and there's no learning going on. That reflects in posts on Main that are low quality and worthy of downvoting.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 13:49
101

I'm writing too many long comments, so thought I should turn them into an answer.

I myself am feeling drained and exhausted. The community started off with enthusiasm all those years ago. It was like walking into a den of lions at times true, but there was life and energy on the site. I've noticed this change, it's been gradual. People in particular rallying for the tool to reduce the close vote review queue. To burn unwanted tags.

The tools we were given were inadequate. People felt the need to form groups to moderate the site to delete crap.

Gnat's answer on MSE sums it up What does constructive criticism of a design change look like?. Interestingly I went through my meta posts independently around the same time as he posted that answer and deleted some of the feature requests as I could see they were clearly a waste of time. As were many of my posts.

These days it's starting to feel like the Network heads are an elephant and we're not going to move it unless it stands up and walks. I feel for the community team. They're the same people we loved and respected all these years. To me it seems the organisation they work for is unrecognisable to the one they started with (I could be completely wrong here).

The thing that has changed is the legal and financial structure of the organisation. I don't know the ins and outs of it, but have been around long enough for when they were accepting venture capital and I have noticed definite changes (I first lurked/joined here in 2011 or 2012). I wonder how much of the corporate culture has helped to kill off the site. With people pulling the strings and knee capping the community team, so they really cannot implement the things they know might help the site.

The penny dropping moment that I've been gleaning the site to find out what was wrong was Tim Post's post -> Are we creating divisions in our quest to make new users welcome?. It gave me the answer to why they were so vigorously acting upon external feedback. The in/famous tweet (and by a lady I respect for the record). I was so upset that it took a tweet for the site to finally do something about the obvious rudeness on the site. All these years of rallying for some changes and a tweet and that's it. Well now it's clear. The tweet was a symptom. What was really going on was the user attrition rate. It was no external prompt that compelled these changes, it was the site's internal stats. (this is all my thoughts and opinions).

So something that could have been clearly circumvented if a few things had been put in place years ago has turned into a crisis.

Give the users the tools they need to moderate the site. To keep the site clean of rubbish. To help maintain the quality.

Yes we need to be nice to new users. I've never argued with that. If the UX experts say a helping hand is going to help "prevent" people from striking out with impatience, use it (I and only one other person I've spoken to on the network like the helping hand). But the issue is deeper.

Support your core community and watch the site improve.

I for one am tired of posting suggestions, pushing the team in chat and emails to make changes. Spending time and energy asking the community what they want and having to endure the usual obligatory downvotes and occasional snarky comment. And I'm trying to actually get the tools these same snarky users need to clean up the site. I'm tired of them. They're tired of me. We're all tired of rude people coming onto the site with an attitude of entitlements. Your core users are tired!

The flip side is, it breaks my heart when I see a new user trying on the site and witnessing people being nasty. The person turns themselves inside out and tries to give the users what they want. Let's face it. The site is not that intuitive. When people ask, why don't you read the help centre? It because reading the help centre is like reading a text book. It's not exactly short.

I'm starting to feel dejected and losing hope for the site. If it wasn't for profit, I'd be less concerned. As it stands it feels like too little too late.

I'm tired. I want to see what the network decides to do. I'm sure I'm not the only one giving this whole thing a lot of thought. Sometimes I think maybe I should just focus on answering questions. It was going through the front page looking at new questions that brought me to meta and use of my mod privileges as a new user all those years ago. Maybe this site isn't a good fit for all programmers.

This is the question I fear many people may be asking themselves.

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    I half expect to be mod stripped for this post.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 16:31
  • 36
    if you are, then I think that would be the best indicator that they actually don't listen. I hope it doesn't happen :/
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 17:06
  • 13
    I think that's an unrealistic fear. The people at SE are not afraid of honest talk.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 17:52
  • 2
    @JoshCaswell yeh, you're probably right. I've gone out on a limb though. And they're my thoughts, I don't have all the facts... so we know where that can lead people?
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 17:54
  • 9
    Welcome to the right side of the fence ;) Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 19:29
  • 33
    "The site is not that intuitive." Understatement of the century! SO is the complete opposite of intuitive! The hordes of new users who fail to do basic things like formatting a code block are proof of that. It's really no surprise, then, that SO fails miserably at more difficult problems like educating new users about how SO works.
    – Aran-Fey
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 19:49
  • 39
    @YvetteColomb, Just for the info ... "If I went around stripping diamonds from every moderator with a bone to pick over that blog post, we'd be down half our moderators tomorrow." - Shog9 meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/367206/…
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 0:31
  • 28
    If that tweet was posted on MSO/MSE, it would violate the old Be Nice rule and the new CoC. Ironic. Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 12:12
  • 4
    @IanKemp April has had her fair share of vitriol from this site. It's natural that this will eventually spill over. Honestly, and there's no difference in what she is saying compared to what you are saying in your comment? The exception being, she's stating her opinion about the site, you're doing it about a person. I can hardly blame her if she hated this site. She has been maligned, sexually harassed and been dragged through the mud. These are things I have witnessed on the site. And then you cry foul on the site being accused of being hostile? omg I'm actually laughing - for realz.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 6:29
  • 9
    @YvetteColomb I agree that playing the person is not the right thing to do here, and as such have removed my comment. I hope you understand, however, that the difference in tone between the tweet, and this person's main Twitter profile, are incongruous at best - and incongruities make me suspicious of people's motives.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 13:56
  • 1
    @IanKemp yes for sure. She explained it later on. It was an outburst of the kind she doesn't traditionally make. But hey we're all human
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 14:53
98

I have spent a lot of time at this point rubbing elbows with various SE folks on Meta, and I know them to be smart, thoughtful people who want good things for the site. Unfortunately, I don't believe that the changes they're choosing are steps towards more good things. And I'm having a harder and harder time maintaining my presumption of good will in the face of continuing sulfur-like reactivity to any input except Meta.

The "welcoming" blog, the revamping of the CoC, the new user indicator, seem to have been triggered by an episode of outrage, itself triggered by a single comment that I really don't find worthy of outrage.* It is deeply concerning that the outrage of people who don't use the site holds far more sway with the company than years of feedback/suggestions/complaints from the most involved users. Users who contributed the very content that makes the platform worth being outraged over in the first place.

The Truth is Already Out There

There are hundreds of suggestions on the two Metas for what we need. There are any number of painful interactions caused directly by the software. (Duplicate handling is at the top of my personal list, but there are plenty of ideas to go around.) Just start there.

Now, many of those may be terrible ideas. Some of them may be good ideas that SE has no interest in implementing -- and that's fine. But we see well-received posts completely bypassed in favor of out-of-the-blue UI additions that just further exacerbate the appearance that existing users don't deserve as much respect as new ones. In at least two instances, ideas were actively solicited: What privilege should 30k users get?, Let's Plan the Second Iteration of the Stack Exchange Quality Project! There were enthusiastic responses from dedicated users, deeply invested in the success of the platform. To my knowledge, little to none of it has been acted upon. I don't think it should come as a surprise: that's just alienating.

(To be fair, the question wizard may be an attempt to address Robert Harvey's answer to the second post there. Please correct me if I'm missing something else.)

I Want to BeLeave

So what do I need? I need the well-documented concerns with Stack Overflow scaling and quality to take priority, not be endlessly displaced by...well, frankly, by changes and statements that imply I'm a misanthropic jerkwad who can't be trusted.

I'm largely checked out right now because of the way things have been going over the last few years. I want so badly to be convinced to come back, but most every post from SE lately does the opposite. I had actually decided to take some time off about a week before the great unwelcoming, and that just solidified things for me when I saw it.

I do want to make this point really, crystal, clear: I don't mean Meta. I've seen questions on main that I could have provided useful answers to, and declined to do so. (Editing, too.) I'm not interested in contributing any more right now, and it's because of the way that users like me are being addressed^Wignored.

I used to be frustrated but understanding that there just weren't resources to do all the things. But as Pekka recently noted, that doesn't appear to have been what was actually going on. Pekka's an active Meta member of very long standing, and one of the most moderate and reasonable on this issue that I can think of. Stack Exchange, Pekka may be the Cronkite to your LBJ. Not to mention Monica Cellio, an elected moderator and core user on several sites: Dear Stack Overflow, we need to talk. Please reconsider the effects you're having on your core userbase.

The Search Extinction

All that said, let me close with this twist: the core of my concern with quality isn't even about me as a power user answerer; it's about me as an anonymous nobody looking for answers to my own problems. Stack Overflow search hits have steadily become decreasingly useful. And that's directly because the site has become increasingly populated by bad questions and answers. It's taking way too many clicks to find original and relevant information.


*And which outrage was borderline astroturfing anyways: "Stack Overflow is so horrible! You should try this alternative: [link]!" O_o

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    I pretty much agree with most of what you've said. I do think the person on twitter had real concerns and wasn't astroturfing. Her site is fine and serves a purpose. There's room for both. There us an utter hatred of SO off site that I find disconcerting. SO can/ more so was unwelcoming. We can't deny that. But the low quality stuff - which is what lead me to using mod tools in the first place and ultimately to becoming a mod - is a bigger problem. Search results, looking for questions to answer.. the lot
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 18:00
  • 7
    «Her site is fine and serves a purpose. There's room for both.» I'll defer to your judgement on that. I haven't actually visited except for the thread halfer posted there about "can't we help each other coexist" and they said "lol no you're the enemy".
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 18:04
  • Interestingly I did note some of the content here being plagiarised there. BUT that is not unique to that site, it happens here and everywhere. I was a member of that site and didn't realise it until the blog. I had signed up for something I couldn't remember. I've not contributed there. My first love has always been SO. Maybe programming has changed. I don't know what has changed. Maybe less people who truly have a passion for programming? Someone here mentioned that somewhere.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 18:15
  • «less people who truly have a passion for programming? Someone here mentioned that somewhere» You're probably thinking of this post of Tim's.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 18:25
  • 1
    actually I hadn't seen that (well not lately), but it explains what I was trying to say. I did come into programming later in life and regret not learning it as a teenager. My only life regret actually. Yep and it shows how long it's been going on meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252506/…
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 18:28
  • saw your edits :'(
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 5:07
  • 8
    re: "Stack Overflow search hits have steadily become decreasingly useful." In my opinion, this is the result of calling everything "too broad", not only in closure, but through user comments. Many questions which should be valid are instead not allowed by a zealous interpretation of preventing broad questions. In such zeal, the result has been to create the perfect machine for producing refactored code. So, if you are looking to do something, and it was done before "too broad", then you will find it here. If not, then you wont. If you are looking to refactor something, its here.... somewhere.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 5:30
  • 1
    Hey @YvetteColomb what's this infamous tweet people are talking about? Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 7:14
  • 1
    Both of the different sites are serving different purposes. The other is a tech themed hugbox, and not really a serious Q/A site in the sense of trying to build something you can search through and find useful info from. It's designed to mainly benefit the OP.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 7:24
  • 1
    @PaulSamsotha I'll have to go and dig it up. here will update the posts
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 8:42
  • 1
    This really echos my experience, I started to get involved in SO in '14 after finding it when learning a new JS framework - just found the answers so never needed to join or ask a question. I joined in '15 as I was directing my students (was tutoring at the time) and classmates here for certain questions. I was pretty heavily invested by the time DOCs came out, and did my part with it, but the burnout on that was so much that I had to just take a break. After coming back, I keep just passing over questions and ignoring the main page...if it wasn't for chat I may not even open my SO tab anymore Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 14:16
  • 8
    "And which outrage was borderline astroturfing anyways: 'Stack Overflow is so horrible! That's why I founded an alternative: [link]!'" -- For the sake of accuracy, that site wasn't founded by April Wensel; she merely helps to spread the word about it.
    – duplode
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 17:27
  • 21
    Just as one data point, it appears we lost a brilliant user who was often rather short-tempered: EJP (user207421). His answers were not just good, they were outstanding. I learned much from reading them, and continue to learn from them when I stumble across them. He left or was kicked towards the beginning of this latest "be nice" extremism. Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 19:46
  • 5
    @JamesKPolk oh cr@p. I didn't see that. This is concerning.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 20:47
  • 11
    We lost EJP? S/he had considerable network knowledge and I, for one, am bitterly disappointed:( EJP was worth more than tens of thousands of Sunday-Night-Special homework-dump burner accounts. Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 12:29
68

Building off of Makoto's answer, give us a voice:

  • Stop posting controversial blog posts with comments disabled
  • Stop deleting criticism
  • Stop banishing criticism to chat (recall this comment)
  • Stop surprising us with changes, without our input, and then getting surprised by backlash
  • Stop dismissing meta as, "not representative of the community." I represent myself and the contributions I've made on the main site. Before dismissing meta participants as a small percentage of the user-base, you may want to determine whether their main site contributions are produced (and valued) at a similar scale.

Failing that, just come out and say (as diplomatically as you see fit):

Despite your many contributions, we don't really care for your input. We're going to do what we think is best. You can take it or leave it.

I don't begrudge the company that position; they just need to make it official. At least then we'll know exactly where we stand... and we can make decisions about our continued participation on that basis.

6
  • 4
    yep fair enough and I've listened to what people want. Did you notice the OP on the linked post has deleted their account? frightening
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 14:55
  • 4
    I totally get this "Failing that, just come out and say (as diplomatically as you see fit):" | "I suppose it's good to have your feelings validated, even if it's unpleasant.". I still support this answer. Thanks for the heads up. I'm still hopeful things are moving forward. I had a long chat (whine) at Catija which helped.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 17:52
  • 4
    I think my quote requires a bit of interpretation. I don't mean we don't care about your input, but more that meta input is one source of many and that unbridaled negativity threatens to pull us into a spiral where we struggle to listen to meta which only makes meta more negative. Tim explains better than I have.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 19:25
  • 5
    @JonEricson I've removed that quote because the full version takes up more real estate than it's worth, in context. Still, it's not the only instance of you (and others) acknowledging frustration with and dismissal of meta feedback. However justifiable, however understandable, however righteous that is... it's still a problem because we seem to be misunderstanding our relationship with (and/or value to) you. What role would you like us to play, if any? What are the parameters? Maybe that deserves a dedicated meta question.
    – canon
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 16:14
  • 1
    Have you see this meta post? Meanwhile, I'm working on an internal document that ought to help us get feedback from meta at the appropriate times.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 20:51
  • @JonEricson I hadn't yet, no. I'll have a look.
    – canon
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 20:53
61

Makoto posted a great answer about needing to be heard. The comments have expressed frustration with being ignored by Stack Exchange and having suggestions ignored for years. I really can't add anything to that aspect of this conversation.

The focus on newer members has been demoralizing. There is a very dedicated group of users who are here to curate the questions and answers posted. They take the "community moderation" aspect seriously and spend their time and effort to help keep the site clean. This group has been fighting an uphill battle for years in various areas:

  • Handling duplicate questions
  • Handling low quality questions
  • Dealing with review queue loads
  • Flagging inappropriate comments
  • Limited moderator tooling

Fortunately, the community didn't give up. There are multiple automated projects that help handle some of these, and more. These tools put problematic posts in front of users quickly so that they can be triaged appropriately.

This problem with this is that it's time-consuming and after the fact triage. Stack Exchange has promised, started, stopped, restarted and canceled many quality initiatives over the years. Very few have produced results that we see. One such example is Project Reduplication of deduplication. This project was supposed to help users find potential duplicate questions. The community was recruited to provide input and help validate duplicate pairs of questions. These have been no updates on this in the two years since the study/experiment was performed. What happened here? Duplicate questions are posted all the time. Eliminating some of those would be helpful. It'd help the users that are moderating and it'd help new users find answers to their question before they post it.

We are very reactionary on how we handling things around here. Posts are made. Someone finds a problem and flags it. At some point later, that flag is handled either through a review queue or through moderation action. Why don't we move some of the community built tools to earlier in the process and prevent the low quality stuff from getting posted and show users useful information on how to improve their post?

Moderation tooling is not great either. The network has 500+ moderators. There are multiple user scripts floating around for moderators to use the help improve the tools, but even that is limited. The problem with this is that some users don't have all the users scripts, others use conflicting ones, and some don't use any at all. Much like the community, we want better tooling too, so that we can help more effectively.

The short version of what we need: Tooling. It's been teased and promised for years. We get the occasional minor improvement, but it's not enough. It's not what's been promised. It's not what has been asked for by users that live in the trenches to keep the site clean. The focus on new and more users to fine, but it's only going to make the problem that long term, quality minded users are already seeing that much worse. September is coming soon. Are we ready for the wave this year?

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    "The short version of what we need: Tooling." Heck yes. I've been saying this since the beginning of the Welcoming Initiative - you can't ask a few million programmers to suddenly be awesome at social interaction. You can build tools that let you handle the cases that aren't.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 14:30
  • 6
    " At some point later, that flag is handled".... or not....(Thinking about my 800+ aged away flags) Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 14:37
  • 2
    "September is coming soon. Are we ready for the wave this year?" huh? Good answer btw. Tots agree.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 15:33
  • 1
    @AndréKool and interestingly, I've slowed down on handling flags, as I'm too tired to keep coming to meta for the complaints. "Why was my flag declined?" "Why was this deleted?" It's really hard.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 15:34
  • 6
    @YvetteColomb I don't blame you. Your (mental) health is more important than this site. Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 16:26
  • 4
    @YvetteColomb Students graduate high school in May, typically start college and their first programming class in late August. By September, there will be a massive influx of Computer Science 101 students asking low quality questions. At least, in the US. Not sure what kind of schedule the rest of the world is on.
    – mason
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 1:36
  • 3
    I broadly agree with this but am also quite pessimistic that anything will be forthcoming. Seems like the focus right now is squarely on effecting social change and the new user experience, and if you read between the lines on the various communications issued by staff that looks like it's staying for now. So I'm not holding out any hope for better tooling in anything in the foreseeable future.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 6:56
  • 9
    @Undo software enginers are already good at social interaction in general. Like anyone else, they have to interact with collleagues, managers, customers, clients etc, at work, and get on with friends and family when they leave the office/lab. What is hard to understand is when someone asks for their freely volunteered help with the soulless machinery that they have the training and experience to manage, they have inappropriate social rules forced on them by laypersons who cannot program computers at all, and encourage one-sided punishments/sanctions for non-compliance:( Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 10:50
  • 6
    Well said, @MartinJames. It's not fair to say we're bad at social interaction, more that we don't like extra social interaction in a place like this, beyond the minimum necessary.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 16:18
54

Be honest about what the site is for. Since the beginning SO has claimed to be for professional and enthusiast programmers. Not simply "for programmers".

A site that is simply "for programmers" will welcome anyone who has a programming question. A site that is for professional and enthusiast programmers will inevitably seem unwelcoming to a programmer who is unprofessional and unenthusiastic. Such a programmer might arrive, thinking the site is for them, and then leave, when they realize it is not for them.

That is, it seems to me that the underlying reason for the welcoming initiatives, the obnoxious blog post, and clamping down on snarky comments, is to retain programmers who visit the site but are not enthusiastic or professional. It seems the desire is to change the site to be merely "for programmers", not only for professional and enthusiast programmers.

If SE wants to run the site so it is for all programmers, we enthusiasts and professionals who wish the site was only for us will be disappointed, but as the site owner, SE can do this. If SE does this honestly, we professionals will understand.

If SE wants to continue to run the site for only enthusiast and professional programmers, it must accept that the site will be feel unwelcoming to some programmers, those programmers will complain, and there will be a low retention rate.

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    I wish I could upvote this a few more times
    – Vatev
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 12:17
  • 2
    If they were honest about site's purpose moving to "anyone with a computer and an IDE", we could propose a new site on Area 51 that is truly for professional and enthusiast programmers. Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 13:59
  • 7
    This has been going on far longer than the welcome wagon though. It started in 2014 when we were no longer allowed to close questions from people who didn't even know the topic they asked about. That is, questions from non-programmers were suddenly allowed. In comes the flood of crap that can be answered by reading the first chapters of the relevant programming book. SO stopped being for professional & enthusiast programmers, and became a site "about programming". Currently it is "Where Developers Learn, Share & Build Careers"... anyone else feel like they want to puke?
    – Lundin
    Commented Sep 3, 2018 at 6:46
  • 1
    @Lundin every Sunday, when I look at the 'questions' :( Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 17:25
54

Stack Overflow is a big boat which is tasked with riding through the ocean from location to location delivering fresh water which it is able to extract and convert from the salty ocean water during the journey; usually half the holding tank gets filled during the journey.

It had a noble purpose and even a backbone in its early days with a clear mission statement to deliver the finest water.

As time rolled on some inexperienced crew members noted that unprocessed water can be added to the tank and sold for a greater per-trip profit, but senior crew members despised the idea.

The inexperienced crew members complained to the idle rich financiers that the senior crew is not maximizing profits. Well, clearly not maximizing profits is bad, right?

When the senior members were asked about why profits are not being maximized they said that they need better equipment to increase per-trip profits. The financiers scoffed at the idea and said to make do without it.

As time rolls on, the ship will eventually transport 99% salt water and the need for its existence will cease.


Garbage in is garbage out. When I used to google stuff over 5 years ago I would get multiple Stack Overflow hits on page 1 for things to try which eventually solved my problem. This actually convinced me to join, contribute, and learn.

Nowadays I get 2 hits maximum on page 1.

This tells me that even Google is seeing less relevance in the content of Stack Overflow since so much of it is similar.

I do not claim to know the answer to Stack Overflow's longevity, but increasingly ignoring established users does send a clear message to just let the salt water come on in.

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    agree, agree, agree.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 20:43
  • 13
    This whole analogy really made me smile
    – Davy M
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 23:28
  • 1
    With regards to less Google hits... that is actually SO's fault. When they implemented "structured data", Google began collapsing their results and giving the result set in the same preview a forum would be given. So.... you can't really blame garbage on that, they did that to themselves.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 18:30
  • @TravisJ It could also be through fault of my own. Maybe I was just searching for more infantile problems back then and now my needs are more complicated. However, this could also show that Stack Overflow is failing to attract good programmers since good questions aren't being asked; my Google sentiment is honestly a double-edged sword. Maybe this site is destined to keep repeating a loop of it being okay to ask questions of low caliber which get answered by users of slightly higher capacity and established users just keep flinging themselves out of orbit.
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 18:40
  • @MonkeyZeus - Nope, no fault of yours. This happened last year (2017) around November. I am constantly having to click the "More results from stackoverflow.com" link. Why it hasn't been fixed yet is beyond me.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 18:44
  • 2
    Hmm. I wonder if educating new users about adding site:stackoverflow.com to the end of their query would be beneficial...
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 18:49
37

What does our long term community need?

A knowledge base of good questions and excellent answers. Tools that help getting rid of content that does not meet those criteria. Taking seriously an old, but very highly voted post from Meta: Question quality is dropping on Stack Overflow Good search system and some support for finding duplicates.
I find it frustrating when I find out it's much easier to answer a basic question than find a decent duplicate target from gazilion similar questions.
I find it frustrating when I find yet another "please debug my code" question that, after answered, may be freely deleted as no future visitor will find it useful (there used to be 'too localized' close reason some time ago).
I find it very frustrating when it seems that main issue for SE team is that I might react not gently enough for yet another homework dump. Does anyone care if copying homework assignment verbatim with expectation that I will do it (remember "do-my-job-minion" tag?) is gentle?

What does our long term community need to feel valued?

Appreciation of cleaning this site from poor content instead of accusing for being not welcoming. If you still want to build a base of good questions and excellent answers. If not, if this should now be a helpdesk, where everybody finds an answer to their problem, OK. It's your business. But not mine and I see no reason to invest my time in it.

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    You've hit on something interesting. The debug my code questions wouldn't be a problem if people could search on existing posts to find the answers to problems that already have answers. So if there's a way to sort out the clutter it would be most helpful. Then we can answer debugging questions and still find dupe targets. If that makes sense? Also OK. It's your business. But not mine and I see no reason to invest my time in it. I so totally understand you. times 1000 and it almost brings me to tears.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 9:51
  • 4
    @YvetteColomb sorting out the clutter is the main work to be done during debugging. Usually when you have this done, you don't need to ask anything - you have the answer. Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 12:56
  • most new programmers don't know how to debug.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 14:49
  • 6
    @YvetteColomb And hand in hand with that is that most new programmers don't know how to effectively search for their answer, hence so many duplicate questions. I feel like what this answer is challenging is: Do we want to be the people who teach users all of that and work individually on every question posted regardless of what has been asked before like a help desk, or do we want to keep our current goal of building a base of good questions and excellent answers? I'm not sure if those are the only two answers, but I definitely agree with the sentiment of this answer and your comments.
    – Davy M
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 16:32
  • @DavyM and also, I'm throwing around ideas, I don't pretend to know what the "exact" solution is. Yeh learning programming is hard. And you're spot on. How can you search for an answer when you're not understanding the search terms.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 17:57
30

There seems to be a huge disconnect between the hunger for new users when what is really being sought after are new contributors.

All of these changes to do with the Be Nice policy etc have made it seem to me like those that continue to try and uphold standards are the unwelcome ones and should instead turn into rep whores to feed the hungry vampires who clearly could use the vast amount of research material that has been created here if they would just be willing to spend one hour creating that MCVE that is asked for almost immediately upon their one sentence question to get their answer.

In my opinion, it's just that StackOverflow is the first steps into the real world of work outside of hand holding school for programmers (and enthusiasts) and that everyone will learn that regardless of their field of work. Once that dust has settled, the contributors that are really being sought after eventually come back again and again with increasing quality because this really is the best place to get help with issues.

So sorry, I welcome the attempt to get people to be more mindful when commenting.. but don't expect me to suddenly accept "it doesn't work" as something worth my time.

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    one thing that grates is when the same newcomers who don't provide an [mcve] then flag the comments asking for one as unwelcoming! decline
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 8:37
  • 2
    @YvetteColomb do they really? *long sigh*
    – canon
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 18:21
  • 7
    @canon a lot. Some people come onto the site, seeming to be well aware of the policy changes. Are really rude to people, then have the gall to flag other people's comments as rude or unkind. Like wth? Nope, Not happening. Sometimes a mod message to these same people will result in us being abused.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 18:30
  • @YvetteColomb :/
    – canon
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 19:49
29

To my mind, the community needs better questions. To be precise, well-researched questions. Questions are building blocks of a Q&A sites because there can be no answers without questions, so the 'A' in 'Q&A' cannot exist without the 'Q'. At the moment questions in some tags I follow (Python, C, C++) are getting weaker and weaker: there are many duplicates, and - this is just as important - more and more questions that can be answered with four letters: RTFM. Seriously, lots of askers can just open up a manual and get the answer themselves! So... Should we allow four-letter answers then? Or link-only answers?

Of course not, because if we do, Stack Overflow will become "man-powered Google", where people provide links to stuff and explain in unnecessary detail how to change some code so that it works. This is why, even in presence of so many questions, that 'A' in 'Q&A' fades away, and the very philosophy of the site seems to be falling apart. People who don't receive answers because the latter are easily "googlable" and, again, because we aren't "man-powered Google", may get mad and/or just leave for good.

Also, many questions are poorly written, namely they:

  • don't have a question at all
  • are poorly formatted
  • are just dumps of peoples' homeworks

These also don't receive many answers because there's nothing to answer or it's too hard to decipher what is being asked or the post meets some closing criterion. Those who didn't get a satisfying answer may get mad and/or just leave for good.

How to get these better questions, though? Make sure the askers understand how to ask questions and what to ask! Where is this topic discussed? In the Help Centre! Now the solution just boils down to making people read the Help Centre. We just need to understand how the community works and what it does and does not do. To understand this before posting questions because otherwise the asker will be told this explicitly (see their question closed/downvoted or via comments), which some may take as criticism and/or insult. Why feel judged or insulted after having posted something if you could've simply read the posting guidelines first?

All in all, I think the community needs better questions, and to generate better questions, people should be educated about the acceptable ways of asking them before they start posting. This will at least filter out some potential questions that meet closing criteria. So, RTSOM: Read The Stack Overflow Manual!

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    +0.85 : Is question quality a fundamental problem? Indubitably. Is the Help Center the solution? I'm skeptical.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 22:48
  • 1
    Question quality is the direct result of the set of close reasons. If you want to tweak question quality, and the response that the community has to questions in general, then you should consider focusing more on changing the close reasons.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 5:32
  • 2
    @JoshCaswell, of course, it’s not the solution, it can be an important part of a more complete solution, though.
    – ForceBru
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 12:40
  • Most new users only become interested in the quality of their question after they got their first downvote. That's why idownvotedbecau.se works - it gives the explanation when the new user is open to it. Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 12:20
  • RTFM is never an appropriate comment or answer ever. We want to welcome basic, newbie questions on StackOverflow! Absolutely! StackOverflow is supposed to be a repository of good questions and answers, just because a question is already answered in a manual somewhere doesn't mean it's a bad question.
    – Flimm
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 7:50
  • 7
    @Flimm: Nope. StackOverflow Documentation is a failed and buried project, but its aim was exactly to keep those basic newbie questions off SO itself. Documentation failed because still it wasn't good enough as real manuals. So we can transitively conclude that real manuals are definitely better than StackOverflow newbie questions.
    – MSalters
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 8:08
  • @MSalters SO Documentation failed, and I wasn't surprised that it failed, but its aim wasn't to keep basic newbie questions off SO itself, I would disagree with that. I do agree with your last sentence though, good manuals are better than SO questions, mainly because a good manual is well-written, comprehensive and authoritative. SO answers can be well-written and even comprehensive, but they can never be authoritative, which is one of the main reasons I thought Documentation was a doomed project. About RTFM specifically: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/23628
    – Flimm
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 8:35
  • 2
    @Flimm, if you want to be less rude, you can say: “RTFM (Read The Following Manual): <link_to_docs>”, but that’s kinda pointless because most people are capable of using search engines themselves, right? Also, the documentation is there exactly to answer the basic questions! What’s the point of duplicating the info already found in the docs on SO, then? If a question already has an answer somewhere, one should vote to close and link to the dupe (be it the docs or another question on SO), to my mind.
    – ForceBru
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 9:44
  • 1
    @TravisJ I think the close reasons are important too; the last set of close reason changes seems to have taken things in the wrong direct WRT quality, IMO.
    – Andy
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 20:56
  • 4
    @Flimm I disagree, I don't think we want super basic questions here from people that have not even some kind of baseline knowledge about coding. There are plenty of sites and tutorials for that. That is part of the "basic research" requirement that SO has (or did have).
    – Andy
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 21:00
  • 2
    @Andy - Yes, there were definitely unintended side effects. It has been 4 years, it should really be revisited.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 21:28
25

Me

I've been around for a while. Yet I have found myself on the bemused sidelines of this whole batrachomyomachia. Why? Because I stopped commenting on questions a long time ago. If I see an unanswerable question, I downvote, VTC, and move on. In fact, those are nearly the only actions I take on the site. Once in a blue moon, I find a question to answer. Much, much less frequently, I see a question where I believe that leaving a comment might lead to an edit that might lead to an answer.

A fundamental contradiction in the site's mechanics

I see an unanswerable question. The site solicits two contradictory reactions: downvote & VTC on the one hand, and comment on the other. If I choose the second, the site offers no mechanism to find out that the user has, in fact, edited the question. It would make more sense if I could register the idea that the question deserves a downvote & VTC unless gaps are filled.

Attrition as an XY problem

Once upon a time, we had posts on meta that looked towards a future in which most visitors to the site would find that their question was already answered. Google would bring them to the answer. They'd click their heels together and get on with their life; no need to make an account, no need to ask a question.

What if we have, in fact, achieved that beautiful status? If that were true, we might expect two groups of new questioners to hang around. People with novel and perhaps hard questions. And people who have problems that are not, in fact, questions. People who are looking for engagement, dialog, and help. Not necessarily vampires -- but with needs that this site was never designed to fill and which is does not fill at all.

Stack Exchange the Company sells the eyeballs of users who find an existing answer just as much as it sells any other eyeballs. So why so much anxiety about 'attrition' as opposed to a focus on total impressions?

My irritated fellow experts

Time and time again, I see a pattern. Someone posts a lazy question. A homework dump. A clear example of 'do my work for me, don't teach me something.' Or, sometimes, a plea for assistance from someone who does not know enough to frame an answerable question. And my fellow experts feel compelled to express their frustration in comments. They think, or claim to think, that their comments are neutral statements, but they are not. Their justified annoyance is transparent. And then we are off to the races. This is what The Company should be worried about -- that the passionate providers of answers feel so abused by the lazy questioners that (a) they dump on the innocent confused, and (b) they wander away.

Unless, of course, we're in the 'XY' situation. We've got plenty of answers. The company could make the site read-only tomorrow, and the money from impressions would roll in for a very long time. Not that I'm suggesting this, mind you.

A possible path to a solution

People who need more help than the answer to a clear question are not going to go away. They will keep arriving. They will keep getting tangled up in this site's mechanics and keep triggering the frustration of this site's long-term users. And keep creating bad press. So, perhaps The Company needs to put on its big-child underpants and create a feature to match up people who need help with people who want to give help. I predict that there will be little attrition from that apparatus, if it works. That will still leave the lazy and the entitled; Sturgeon's Law tells us that there will be plenty of them. But they don't get sympathy in the press. We can go back to the good old days of politely chasing them away with pole-arms.

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    +1, but I rather disagree with "the lazy and the entitled […] don't get sympathy in the press." Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 4:40
  • the type of new questions that are on topic and not duplicates related to changes in apis or new tech. As for the rest, as you've said, it's been long covered. Sometimes I think we should just allow people to ask and answer dupes without issue, as finding dupe targets can be difficult at times.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 5:59
  • 1
    You had me at the octosyllabic word that I'd never encountered before, but it's an excellent answer besides that too.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 18:11
  • 1
    @NathanTuggy: I think that's the proposed solution: Don't give them sympathy (which today they receive from the SO PR office) and not a statement about how the world is today.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 17:32
23

What does our long term community need?

One and only one thing: less than 200 questions in Close Vote Queue at any point in time achieved by having all questions that deserve closing being closed.

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    How are you going to inspire an army of close voters to actually achieve that goal then? (Try not to use an actual army...)
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 16:42
  • 8
    @Makoto We don't need an army, we only need better weapons :)
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 18:54
  • 6
    Joking aside, there have been numerous posts and propositions on Meta on how to make close voting more effective, as well as how to reduce amount of bad questions asked. But very little or nothing has been done in that regard. Whatever problems Stack Overflow has they will not be solved until there is huge amount of unclosed questions in CVQ.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 18:58
  • 2
    From my experience it has really always been about numbers. There's a lot of people out there who have the power to actively close questions. Only a fraction ever exercise it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 19:02
  • 3
    @Makoto There is no reputation for moderating. There is very little incentive to do so. Few badges are not enough.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 19:06
  • ...which is my point. How are you going to inspire an army to actually handle this task? Better weapons will only get us so far.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 19:07
  • 1
    I think your answer would benefit from adding your answers in the comments to it (i.e. rep for moderating, or some incentive, and better tools for closing questions) Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 19:21
  • 13
    I upvoted this, as we need to know what people want. My attitude (for me) is this is the last chance. I'm not putting more energy into it until we are handed better tools. The close vote queue is counter productive, destroys morale and doesn't effectively get rubbish off the site. The current tools we have are like moving a mountain with plastic teaspoons.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 20:50
22

What does Stack Overflow really need? It needs fewer questions.

No, I'm not joking. The problem is that the Stack Overflow model only works if the ratio of questions to expert answerers is high enough that each question can be viewed (and preferably answered or responded to) by at least two or three actual subject matter experts. However, subject matter experts are few and far between, while people who think they are experts (or aspire to be experts) are a dime a dozen (due to the Dunning-Kruger effect).

However, as the number of questions continues to increase, the ratio between questions and people who can answer them is decreasing. This leaves the experts an increasingly limited number of options. An expert can spend less time on each question, but that leads to issues where individual interactions are rushed, which exacerbates the problems of the site being unwelcoming. Or an expert can skip questions that they could have answered because they don't have time -- this leads to high-quality questions not getting answered at all, or only getting low-quality answers. And it makes low-quality questions even more destructive, since each low-quality question that an expert encounters takes time and attention away from a question that actually could have used it. To deal with this situation, it looks like most actual experts have either pursued a strategy which is a little bit of both (rush through questions, and skip lots of them), or have simply given up and walked away from the site.

Stack Overflow was founded on an idealistic model. The idea was that, if someone just reads enough answers to questions (their own or someone else's), then they will over time become an expert themselves and be able to provide expert answers. And there's a grain of truth in that idea, but it's ultimately an oversimplified model. Real experts don't become experts by answering questions, but by working in the field, by experimenting, by gaining experience. (I remember an old adage that "an expert is someone who, within a given area of study, has made every possible mistake at least once".) And of course there is also the distinction between someone with 10 years of experience, and someone with one year of experience repeated 10 times.

What is the solution? I'm not really sure. I suspect that ultimately the site may need a way to rate-limit growth: perhaps the community should not be able to absorb any new questions until it has also acquired a sufficient number of experts to answer them meaningfully (and without being rushed or overwhelmed). But that solution also has some pretty obvious downsides.

I suspect that much of the "unwelcoming" experience comes as a defense mechanism. Whether correctly or not, whether consciously or not, the long-term community is reacting as if it is under attack by new questions. New questions should be a sign of life for the community, but they're being treated almost as a sign of death: the site is being overrun with them!

Unfortunately, I think the idea of "community" here is part of the problem. Stack Overflow isn't really a community, so much as it is a loose collection of various knowledgable people. From the beginning the intention was never to form a social club or a way for people to interact: it was intended to be an impersonal knowledge-sharing transaction. But the group of experts that started the process off were highly respected and the "community" gained a reputation of knowing answers to things. That's great! But it set the bar at an unsustainable level. It's simply not possible for a new user who posts their first question in 2018 to have the same experience that they would have had in 2008 -- the "community" of 2008 doesn't exist anymore, not meaningfully. It didn't disappear overnight: it has been a long slow slide to where we are now, and probably will continue to slide for a long time before hitting bottom.

The emphasis on new users, and on improving the experience for new users, is focusing on exactly the wrong side of the funnel. Users don't come to Stack Overflow to have a good experience: they come here because there are experts here. If there aren't experts (or aren't enough experts), then the experience is bad for everybody, regardless of what efforts we might make.

Ironically, Joel Spolsky made basically this same point himself (although in a slightly different context) back in 2001 with the post Big Macs vs. The Naked Chef:

More important is our obsession with hiring the best… we are perfectly happy to stay small if we can’t find enough good people [...]. And we refuse to grow until the people we already hired have learned enough to become teachers and mentors of the new crowd.

Stack Overflow used to be The Naked Chef, and it's become McDonald's. And that's perhaps the biggest tragedy of all.

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    I completely agree. There are too many questions in certain tags (at least in all language tags). But there could be more questions in small tags. I know of at least 10 tags where experts are waiting daylong to answer the few questions (in some tags less than 5 a day). If you cut that down even more, these experts will be frustrated and leave.
    – BDL
    Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 17:37
  • In Dutch we have a saying: "a fool can ask more questions than ten wise men can answer" ;-) the number of questions continues to increase I'm not sure it is? As far as I know it's been pretty stable at about 7k to 8k per day for years (currently 6.6k). I don't disagree that this too much, but I don't think the problem is getting worse Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 20:38
  • @MartinTournoij: I don't mean that the rate of questions is increasing (you're right, as far as I know it's holding pretty steady), but the absolute number of questions definitely is increasing! The real issue is that the rate of answers is dropping while the rate of questions is holding steady, which is making the problem worse. I do admit that the problem is worse in some tags than others. Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 20:54
  • Since 2 years rate of questions and answers has been dropping, slowly but steadily (according to SO statistics). Question rate is dropping slightly faster than answer rate.
    – sth
    Commented Sep 5, 2018 at 15:37
21

Now about identifying and concentrating on the core problems instead of their (highly visible) effects?

The core reason for all the negativity on SO have already been identified as a conflict between groups of users with different interests.

So, the next logical thing to do here is to identify which of these interests are in line with SO's goals and support these while denying support to interests that conflict with the site's goals.

Since forcefully coercing a mass of users that is constantly changing into compliance is an experience in Whac-a-Mole, a sustainable way to go is "softly but firmly" nudge them into the right way of action by making it easy and away from a wrong one by making it hard.

The following is a sample outline, by those user groups, what specific objectives and measures could be used like this (this doesn't constitue a concrete suggestion, just examples of the initialives that already surfaced in the past, sometimes repeatedly):

  • caretakers

    • make it easy (aka fast) to point out common flaws in questions and help fix them
    • make it easy to quickly triage question as suitable/unsuitable quality
    • make it easy to locate and manage duplicates
      • a panel? allow multiple suggestions? better search (currently gives less relevant results than Google)?
      • mechanic to change the suggested/marked duplicate after edit?
  • askers

    • make it easy to ask good-quality questions, make it hard to ask bad-quality ones
      • wizard/template with entries for all the information required (including own research and efforts and MCVE); make them go through all the steps and compose something on each on the assumption that one-stoppers will go away as it's "too much work"
  • users primarily motivated by reputation

    • incentivise finding duplicates
      • award some reputation to the finder? more is the OP confirms it solves their problem?
    • disincentivise answering duplicates
      • take away all or a part of the reputation gained from this?
    • disincentivise giving poor quality answers?
      • make donvoting less taxing? make these answers officially deletion-worthy?
4
  • 1
    great answer. I wonder if any of these ideas will make a difference?
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 1, 2018 at 18:59
  • I do know that some of the suggestions made here were anyway discussed at Meta (and regretfully not all were well received), but I agree with the main culprit.
    – E_net4
    Commented Sep 1, 2018 at 19:27
  • 2
    @YvetteColomb since the negativity stems from a lack of resolution of pressing problems and these suggestions are resolutions, each should diminish the source of frustration (until another problem becomes the next pressing one to replace it ;-) (thesis-antithesis-synthesis. The resolution is the synthesis.). Commented Sep 1, 2018 at 19:30
  • 2
    It seems that whenever possible, the company prefers to treat symptoms rather than the disease. Commented Sep 1, 2018 at 20:22
18

Transparency.

I understand that most of the changes that have been made in the past 3-4 months have been focused on improving the perception of the site toward users who may want to become members of the community, and that our opinions of those changes don't hold very much weight compared to the feedback provided by the (potential) users being targeted, but transparency up front would go a long way to improving the acceptance of these changes to the existing community. Aside from the CoC change, I felt like I was blindsided week after week with some new feature that's going live right now that improves the perception/usage of the site for the new user, with no chance for seasoned users to provide feedback/participate.

I don't have a good solution to this.

The reality is, with or without our feedback, they were going to move forward with these changes regardless. While our feedback is valuable, it isn't as important as the feedback from the users that are the target of these changes. Even if we were asked for feedback 2-3 weeks before the "New Contributor" indicator was launched, the feedback and end result likely wouldn't have been any different. People would have still felt like it was a slap in the face implicitly blaming them for not being welcoming... even though the feature isn't targeted at people who are being welcoming already. I don't particularly agree with the "New Contributor" indicator, but that's another topic and hopefully the data from it will be useful.

It just would be nice to have these upcoming changes and projects that are being worked on more visible so at the least we're not blindsided by them on a friday morning/afternoon, even if they're things you don't necessarily want our feedback on.

1
  • 6
    yep. We're a community that is used to being consulted and things have changed. I'm not sure how the site is going to make people happy. There's a lot of repair needed as a result of mismanagement.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 20:54
13

Speaking as someone who's been pretty active on the site for about 5 years, I don't get all the moaning and groaning.

I mean, maybe it's because I'm primarily a JavaScript/Python developer, two languages marketed towards beginners (for better or worse) and thus the tags I frequent always have been and always will be full of garbage questions and garbage answers. So I don't really see things getting markedly worse from being nicer to new people (I'm unconvinced that they could).

And, mea culpa, since the push I've....been nicer to new people. Not that I didn't down-vote, vote-to-close, comment, etc....just...without the sarcasm.

And although I've already voiced the sentiment elsewhere here on meta, I don't understand why the tradeoff is always framed as binary, as if it's pristine-but-sparsely-populated-bastion-of-perfection on one hand and an anything-goes-garbage-dump on the other. Codes of conduct get a bad rap, and sometimes deservedly so, but is this the hill to you all really want to die on?

I mean, I'm on the site almost everyday, and have been for years. But you know what? If all the naysayers are right and this ruins SO, well, my life won't be over.

This is an existential crisis, a battle for the meaning of Stack Overflow. But does it need to be? Is your daily interaction with the site profoundly changed? For the worse?

12
  • 26
    I think a lot of what the community is reacting to is the sentiment of e.g. asking for better moderation tools for years, being ignored a lot, sometimes even having tools taken away (see: min. understanding close reason), and then being made out as the villain in this latest bunch of updates. It's not that people don't want to be nice, it's that the company is acting in a way that lots of people find demoralizing.
    – Radiodef
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 20:09
  • 3
    @Radiodef that seems a fair (if pessimistic) reading of history, and certainly explains some of the moaning and groaning. SO probably has gotten worse on some dimensions. I guess for me, as far as my participation on the site goes, I chalk it up to fundamental tradeoffs often implicit in these kinds of decisions. Sometimes the tradeoff goes your way, and sometimes it doesn't, and there's definitely a point at which it's no longer worth participating. But people seem to be taking this personally, in a way I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 20:16
  • 3
    And as for "made out to be the villian", I frequently see that claimed on blogs, but I have interpreted the official line as "we need to statistically shift the trend on thousands and thousands of interactions" not "witch hunt some troublemakers". Am I wrong? Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 20:18
  • 23
    It has less to do with this single change, than it being the straw that broke the camel's back; users are exhausted at the changes coming down the pipe, and their voice seems to be ignored. Add in the additional perception that many SE employees seem to think that established users and their focus on quality are the problem (see the welcoming blog kickoff and Nick Larsen's response), and many are asking themselves if it's still worth trying to contribute to a site that doesn't share their values anymore. And I don't think I can blame them for that.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 20:36
  • 2
    @fbueckert I certainly don't blame them. I wish them well. I guess what I'm trying to get at is this: are the shared values really gone? Or have they just been re-prioritized? To what extent? I don't think the site shares my values as much as it used to, but for my $0.02 the gap isn't wide enough yet for me to "abandon ship" to borrow a metaphor. Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 20:44
  • 2
    Well, your post seems to be needlessly challenging, then; you're minimizing the change as just one more thing to deal with. Like it or not, this is the last hill they want to climb before writing off the site entirely.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 20:49
  • 7
    «taking this personally» Well, it's sort of a simple syllogism. The Tour, among others, says things like "Stack Overflow is [...] built and run by you." The blog post says "Stack Overflow is unwelcoming!" Conclusion? "You are unwelcoming". Is this a completely fair and rational interpretation? Not entirely. But even those who don't want feelings to be involved in any way on SO still have them.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 20:59
  • 1
    @JoshCaswell reasonable. I certainly don't argue that the whole roll-out wasn't...ham-handed. Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 21:05
  • 3
    @fbueckert perhaps I was unclear, I don't think they're wrong to feel that way. I just wonder if they really feel that way, as in "I understand all the tradeoffs and motivations and don't impute any undue ill will but this just ain't my jam anymore" or if they've been swept up in a current of negativity (very hard to avoid). The black/white framing of the issue and high emotions are understandable, I just wonder if they're...I don't know, objective doesn't feel like the right word but its the best I can come up with right now. Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 21:08
  • 1
    Sure, I'll personally cop to not being completely objective. I feel very invested in this place, and I'm quite frustrated by things that are happening. I know that charitable interpretation is not my default mode right now. So I've been taking some time off. (Obviously with the exception of the last day or so.)
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 21:52
  • "I just wonder if they're...I don't know, objective doesn't feel like the right word but its the best I can come up with right now" -- It is very much emotional, indeed. (Right now I'm looking at a recent comment thread that is a crystalline illustration of that -- I won't link to it to avoid putting folks on the spot.) The presumption implicit in at least some people's views about that seems to be that experienced users, unlike newcomers and outside critics, have earned the right to be emotional about it due to their investment on the site.
    – duplode
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 13:39
  • 2
    "This is an existential crisis, a battle for the meaning of Stack Overflow. But does it need to be? Is your daily interaction with the site profoundly changed? For the worse?" No, but I remember having to search on forums and newsgroups for tech help. It was possible of course, but SO is so much nicer. Without SO, I'd manage, but my job could be a bit more frustrating. Actually with the quality problems, that's already started to happen.
    – Andy
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 21:16
9

Not a regular Meta user, but an active main site user for ~1 year. I have some ideas of my own on this one.

What does our long term community need?

So, uh, I think I might start this off from gaining reputation. I'm in an environment where few people knows Stack Overflow, and even fewer knows its meaning and value. I'm actively answering questions on the main site so I accumulate more reputation, which could serve as a highlight in my (future) curriculum vitae.

By far, the sadest thing to me is that, when you write a good, "professional" answer to a question in depth, you gain significantly less rep than you would if you had spent those time answering a few homework or basic questions. While I understand that professional ones gets less attraction and less people to just its correctness and/or validity, as well as that questions about day-to-day tasks benefit more people, it's really a bullshit to routinely or regularly having a +5 answer on a question that's caused by something as simple as forgetting to initialize a variable. That kinds of questions are just noise, nuisance, disturbance, interruption and lure to people who want to write great answers, unless they don't care 'bout rep, but not for me.

Subsequently, I'm seeing much less great answers than I saw years ago. Without great answers, Stack Overflow is just a "Homework Base", not a "Knowledge Base". I think we need some value. Value. Yes. Some value in the knowledge contained in Stack Overflow. Some value in the user community. Some value in great Qs and As. Not homework, not typos, not stupid primary-school level mistakes. They are NOT value.

Yeah, Stack Overflow is a site for Q and A. We're here to help. To help everyone who has a question about programming. We by nature don't refuse those newbie questions. But can they please don't pop up as +10 or +20, Wow? That's hurting value generators. People will get excited for gaining easy rep from those simple, regular, routine questions. Fewer people can calm down and write better ones.

What does our long term community need to feel valued?

After all, Stack Overflow is a knowledge base. The community is kind and honest. We want to improve the content quality of Stack Overflow. Can we please be equipped properly to help improve the qualities? We don't need the shitty ugly left nav-bar. We don't need the absurd "new contributor" indicator. Can we get some spotlight, some focus, or even merely some attention on our voice? I know you Stack Exchange gets profit from Jobs, SO Business and ads and I know why you spend more effort on those things. But I can't understand why Stack Exchange keeps carrying out controversial, or even unpopular "feature"s. They're more nuisance than "feature".

If your voice is repeatedly, frequently, consistently and constantly ignored, and your will, your desire, your passion is repeatedly, frequently, consistently and constantly hurt and discouraged, will you feel valued?

3
  • 4
    By far, the sadest thing to me is that, when you write a good, "professional" answer to a question in depth, you gain significantly less rep than you would if you had spent those time answering a few homework or basic questions. good point.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 16, 2018 at 12:08
  • @iBug: "By far, the sadest thing to me is that, when you write a good, "professional" answer to a question in depth, you gain significantly less rep than you would if you had spent those time answering a few homework or basic questions." OK, but whose fault is that? It certainly isn't the fault of the makers of the site, for this has been true since maybe 2010 if not earlier. What you're talking about is essentially "bikeshedding" (things that people easily understand get more focus than what they can't). And that's a social problem, not a site problem. Commented Sep 18, 2018 at 2:23
  • 1
    @NicolBolas Agree. General social problem, not specific to SO. That doesn't deny the fact that it has discourgaed prople from spending real time writing real answers, however.
    – iBug
    Commented Sep 18, 2018 at 2:27
9

Here's what I'm wishing for: for everyone to understand that some of this stuff is inevitable, and it's no one's fault.

I'm a relatively long-term user. I can completely see that new users are getting a tough time: I experience it myself on sites where I have low reputation. But I can also completely see that moderators, reviewers and long-term users are getting fed up with the deluge of questions that are really low-quality and aren't helpful to anybody. Maybe this isn't because the community (in general) is bigoted against women and minorities, and maybe it isn't because the staff and the mods are ignoring the needs of long-term users. Maybe this is just a reality of the stage of growth that we're in, and we have a lot less power to change our circumstances than we would like to think. It's OK.

My desire for this site is that we build a repository of knowledge, and I think we are doing that. I want this site to be useful to lurkers especially, maybe even more than new users. I love that everything is licensed under CC BY-SA, I feel like I'm contributing to Wikipedia and building a free encyclopedia, I love that. We'll go through some rough patches, and maybe our pace of growth will slow, but it's all OK, we're still doing good work for good purposes.

2
  • 1
    Love it, a balanced view. I find myself wondering the same thing. Is this inevitable?
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 8:31
  • 2
    @YvetteColomb Is what exactly inevitable? If you are talking about the stage of growth, I think that is inevitable because the entire industry is rapidly growing and the amount of people getting in to it is growing which in result generates more people wanting to learn/ask questions. I don't think there is any way for us users or SE to change that. The only thing that can be changed is the way that growing amount of everything (questions/answers/users/flags/votes/complains) is being handled. Commented Aug 29, 2018 at 10:12
4

I think we need challenges (also for new users).

I notice that I've been following the same tags for a long time. I've never been incentivize by SO to follow different tags. With some machine learning algorithm, it would be nice to have a message saying "Based on your activity, maybe you should follow this tag for new challenges" or "We need help answering question in this less known tag".

Maybe we see less people staying because they don't see the value of answering questions in popular tags. When new users post in tag with low followers or low answers something could incentivize that person to come and help answer “I see you have knowledge in this tag, come help us answers these questions”.

What I'm trying to say is; developers like solving problems. If the system could show us different places where we can be useful, there might be more people helping out. It could also be a new section where we see old question without answers that still gets activity from search engine (maybe there is already one that I couldn't find).

It's like a game where everybody is grinding at the same place, people see the top level killing enemies so they decide to just walk around and look. Without a good map, people don't know where there are good enemies to kill (questions to answers).

2
  • 6
    These algorithms usually manage to suggest completely irrelevant products / pages / text. In my experience, users follow a specific tag because they're good at that language. Not because they like solving problems. That's why I watch javascript, but not php.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 14:28
  • 5
    I cautiously agree with your first point (as I am well aware how hard it can be to gain rep as a new user or even when new to programming or a language). Cautiously because: 1. That feels like one of the reasons they started "DOCs" and that did not work. 2. When I found I wanted a new challenge I went to another SE site (Puzzles) so maybe advertise this option, which we already have, in more than just "hot questions" (could see something like a "cross-network challenge"). 3. It's not a game so adding features like "get double rep until you hit 2k" could take away from the focus of quality. Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 15:37
-1

I think I've figured it out.

Cowbell

9
  • 3
    Yep, this one pretty well just brightened my day. And really, can't we all use a little more cowbell in our lives?
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 21:02
  • 5
    Stackoverlow has...a fever...and the only...cure is... Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 21:03
  • 3
    @YvetteColomb I have seen weirder things than this being the accepted answer on (M)SO (and I missed it :( did you really accept it?) Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 21:17
  • 3
    @AndréKool Yes, she did. I saw it. Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 21:18
  • I would like to appolagize for taking so long to vote on this answer. I had to do some googling to get the reference. And I have to agree more cowbell does sound like a good idea. (Can't we put video's in aswers?) Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 21:27
  • 2
    @AndréKool it appears all the videos of the skit have been pulled off youtube. Dang nabbit. A really funny skit.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 21:34
  • 1
    @AndréKool you could find a thorough explanation nearby - at EL&U Stack Exchange :)
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 6:42
  • 2
    oh here @AndréKool. I put my pants on one leg at a time.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 9:54
  • 1
    @YvetteColomb That site is blocked here... But fortunatly I have already found another source yesterday :) Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 9:59
-6

I've had my hand in building and "leaving" several communities. These communities ranges from fora about asking and answering questions of faith, to poetry, gaming and various others. Although those communities were never the size of Stack Overflow's user base I have had through those some experience of what to do and not to do with new users.

These are some lessons I've learned from those communities:

TL;DR

Be loving, be gentle, be consequent, be clear, teach instead of purely answer, guide instead of shove.

Three(or N) strikes and you're out is important

Being up front that you're fair but strict. It is important to be upfront about the rules and consequent in enforcing them. People may rouse a ruckus when their favourite troll is banished, but they forget about it in a week and instil in other new users the "history" and that rules are enforced without mercy. People who blatantly ignore the rules need to have consequences as an enforcement method. This also needs to be communicated to the core of the community so they can warn newbies of the consequences.

For Stack Overflow I could imagine monthly statistics of how many users were banned/disciplined for which reasons. Add a badge after visiting these stats for x times in a row. This way people will be motivated and will hopefully take initiative for correcting/helping people, warning them about what consequences certain behaviours will have.

Be brotherly

Be supportive of each other, whether you're new or old. Try to teach your skills to the new ones without hitting them over the head too much. It's better to guide a newbie gradually into the community than to overflow them with all the "unwritten" rules and expectations. People have to grow into it. Have to notice for themselves how hard it is to answer a question without a code sample, have to experience that it hinders their own score growth.
Until a user reaches a score of (throwing up a ball here, could be a bit off, maybe its 500, maybe its 2000) 1000 points don't put too much expectations on them, under a thousand points they are usually just here to get their "quick" fix and are not fully inter-grained in the "SO community" after a certain amount of points people start to want more to with the community. They start to explore meta maybe, reading a few blog posts, start correcting people with what they learned to other new users.

Hearsay is a better rule enforcer than reading the rules

Click accept to continue aaand we're done with the rules reading and we can ask our question. People will hear to the corrections of others and gradually build a small map of what to do and what not to do. Hardly anyone will read the rules when they first come here because they have no motivation to learn about them yet. They have not built up a score, they have nothing invested, they have nothing to lose by not adhering to the rules. First you have to give them something to lose. Their upvoted questions and answers, badges, comments. They they start caring about the rules because they have something to lose. So the "core users" should give them some leeway until they start caring about their score, their profile, their badges. Then you can start teaching them about the ways they should behave.

Focus on helping, not on how to use the site

People who come here as newbie see Stack Overflow usually as "A place where I can get my problem solved" not as a "Community of people"
The community insight only comes after using it intensively. So with the new users to get to stay as part of the community, you have to give them a reason to keep coming back, and that is by giving them an answer to the problem they have.
My biggest gripe is the closing as duplicate which prevents anyone from answering the question in a way that the new user can understand or apply to the problem the user faces.

An example could be a question titled "How to hide a div with jQuery". This usually gets closed within 30 seconds as a duplicate of a question, leaving people responding in comments how to apply that question to OP's problem because OP lacks the fundamental knowledge how to apply the duplicate to his situation.
I would rather vote for an option that when a question is closed as a duplicate that the option exists to open one wiki answer that answers the question for OP's situation for those that wish to help OP. I would also make the closed message different, to something along the line of "This answer has been marked as a duplicate answer. A community wiki answer is possible to provide a solution to OP's specific case"
This discourages help vampires because there's no "reward" and gives community members who have to drive to help to actualy present a useful answer for the OP. This will cause the OP to return to the site because OP got the answer needed, will give OP the chance to grow into the community as a whole.

Teach how to use the site

Experienced users should also take the time to teach the new users how to use their site. Explain where their answer came from, how they found it and how they re-applied the answer from another question to this use case. Allow the new user to connect the dots. Teach them about the programming concepts required and link to relevant documentation points. New users really lack the experience on how to navigate this site, where to find the resources needed and usually they are so inexperienced in their skill area that they cannot see how to apply a solution from a different set of problems in their use case because they haven't learned how to apply the different concepts yet. We need to help them become better problem solvers, to enrich their lives with the new skills that will make it practically unnecessary to ask new questions because they can apply the knowledge hidden in older questions to their own problems, giving them "real" reasons to upvote questions and answers.

Be loving

Be gentle, be loving. Do upon others as you'd like others to do upon you. Do you like a curt answer that solves your problem but doesn't explain the underlying steps? Do you like it when people post a comment about the bad quality of your question without giving helpful hints? New users need to be held by the hand, guided to the process and given a lot of leeway to improve. Remember, the "community" doesn't exist for them yet as an important concept, only their problem. They need room to learn to grow and adapt. Imagine as a foreigner going to a different country and needing to learn the customs there. There are so many small rules and expectations. Newcomers are usually forgiven a lot of mistakes, but as you stay longer, more expectations are put upon the foreigner. It's never from the get go that they need to know all the rules, they're allowed to grown into it, pulled to the side and explained softly what they did wrong or should correct in their behaviour so people can grow into the correct behaviour.
I think it should also be made easier to start a private "chat" with a user to be able to correct/teach the user personally about what exactly went wrong in asking the question and how to modify it(without solving the question problem in chat) I could imagine this a privilege to be given to people with the Strunk & White badge and/or other relevant moderation badges, since these are people who seem to put site quality first and have show inclination of wanting to improve the site.

Bad Questions and the Search extinction

When questions are weeks old, question upvotes + accepted answer upvotes < 2 or closed or what helps best to determine a "junk" question add a no-index meta tag to the question. If a question is garbage or duplicate you simply don't want it indexed into google, bing, yahoo, duck duck or whatever. Stack Overflow should be very strict on what to be allowed to be indexed and what not. Google will still do it's magic with the links on the page etc.. it will just not index it into it's search results unless it decides it's relevant, but a no-index tag is generally obeyed.

19
  • 2
    I wonder if your suggestion of only allowing wiki answers in dupe-closed questions has been previously discussed here.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 11:12
  • 14
    Well, overall, taking all factors into consideration, after all the pertinent facts have been examined, and allowing for review of available options, I will just not bother wasting volunteer effort on new accounts. That avoids upsetting anyone, eg. deadbeat OP's with homework dumps and teachers unions, (I have no teaching qualifications, no experience and no union card). Someone else can teach 'Computers 101' continually, every day, over and over again:( Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 12:34
  • 2
    @MartinJames That is your good right and a very understandable standpoint. But there are also people like me, who "love to teach and explain" and those users usally get a lot of satisfaction from the fact that they helped someone on the path to better themselves. At this moment it's very hard to fullfill that need, since many times I foudn a question where I could explain things to the OP so he could learn, after having typed a nice and complete answer for 10 minutes, the question was closed, making all the work for naught. Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 12:38
  • 1
    @NisargShah The only one I could find via google is deleted with a score of -15 meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/369942/… and i'm not really sure if I should start an unpopular feature request like this seeing the rapid downvotes on that question. Also, since stackoverflow is blazingly slow with pickup feature requests, i'm not really a fan of making requests that will get never implemented or receive feedback from the devs/owners Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 12:50
  • 1
    @Tschallacka Thanks! I won't be able to see it. But yeah, if that's the case... Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 12:54
  • 3
    You really need to open a FR for the dupe wiki.
    – user1228
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 16:22
  • 4
    'Three(or N) strikes and you're out is important' - no, it's not. It's one-sided. The available sanctions are only effective against users with rep/accounts to lose. The deadbeats can be down/close voted, susepnded, banned, so what? It's easy to open a new account for the next drone-demand. Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 10:56
  • 12
    'Be brotherly' why? The OP's are not family, or friends. They are strangers who may, or may not, become friends. If they ask an obviously bad question, one that they know is bad, (eg. a requirement/homework dump), they are already foe, having dissed the volunteer contributors. Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 11:00
  • 10
    'Be loving' doesn't work well in a dark city alley on a Saturday night. It gets you stabbed, mugged, penniless and bleeding out behind a dumpster. On Sundays, SO is very dark and infested with those who would take you for every drop of blood you have and then, since it's only a metaphorical draining, they will do the same again next week, using the same weapons. If you fight back, and the cops show up, the thugs will just disappear and you will end up in jail for disturbing the peace and vandalizing dumpsters. Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 11:08
  • 9
    The focus on people instead of content is the source of the discontent for established users, I believe. We don't care who posts what. All we care about is the post itself. You can be Groot, for all we care, and as long as your posts are not just repeated, "I am Groot!", all is good. Making it about people loses sight of that aspect entirely.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 13:59
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    @MartinJames your last comment. You do make me smile at times. You're not a pinch dramatic by any chance? :D
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 17:58
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    @MartinJames That sounds like a good case for being loving. I mean, I love dumpsters, so any course of action that ends up within a few feet of a dumpster is fine by me.
    – Davy M
    Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 0:32
  • 1
    I love empty dumpsters, late at night or early morning, when I have a van load of rubbish:) Commented Aug 30, 2018 at 11:46
  • 1
    @fbueckert My suggestion addresses people and content, yet is universally disliked. shrug I'll just go back to trying to answer questions.
    – jxh
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 17:03
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    @jxh Presumably because you seem to believe rewarding low quality content will make a better user. At least, that's why I downvoted it. There's some merit to some of the ideas, but taken altogether, it makes for a very bad idea. The focus is far too strong on users, and not on content.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 17:12
-19

So, if you are firm in your belief that the purpose of downvotes is to punish users for creating bad content, you can go ahead and downvote this answer without reading further. If you are open to the idea that downvotes can both be used to reflect bad quality, but also positively reinforce creating good content, read on.

It is unrealistic to expect new users to understand how the site is supposed to work. On the surface, this is a site where the community offers answers to questions. New users, naïve by definition, will of course be taken aback when things don't work the way they expected.

Some suggestions to incentivize better behavior:

  • Create a super-protected mode for questions to limit voters and answerers to topic badge owners. Newbie questions and low-quality questions can stay in this mode for 2 days, unless votes promote it into a good-question status. In theory, those questions have a better chance of getting expert opinions on how to improve the question, a high-quality answer, or self-debug their issue out of existence. If the question is not promoted, the question is closed.
  • Give rep to new users if they successfully promote their question out of super-protected mode. Give rep to the gold-badge owners that help vote to promote the question out of super-protected mode.
  • Give rep to finding a duplicate. You don't get rep for finding a dup to your own question, though.
  • Give rep to a user that receives downvotes. This will definitely take the sting out of downvotes. It will also make long-term users more selective about when downvotes should be given. (And, I would probably start downvoting on SO.)

I'll add one more to the list above:

  • Rep gained on a question or answers to a question is lost if the question gets closed for any reason. All votes are removed and scores set to zero.

The votes are pretty much inline with what I expected.

So this is a fundamental point about the community: the only kind of contributor SO wants to succeed on the site are the ones that are able to overcome the negative reinforcement of downvotes. But, a user may just choose to no longer participate instead of trying to overcome it. I believe there should be a way to encourage users to overcome it.

My proposal is to remove the spanking from the teaching moment, use more timeouts and more positive reinforcement. The suggestions above are efforts to move in that direction, but perhaps it is confusing why I suggest what I am suggesting. So, below are some rationales:

  • A new user usually needs to be mentored. The more experienced users are usually the better choice to be mentors. The super-protected mode is meant to allow a new asker to be mentored by more experienced users, without the distraction of getting a FGITW answer.
    • The primary objection seems to be that high-rep users will also attempt to answer the low quality questions. I counter that after the two days, the question will be closed if it doesn't get promoted out of the super-protected mode. Any rep gained will be removed if my last suggestion is also implemented, so there would be little incentive to answer the question unless there is hope to turn it into a high-quality question.
  • Giving rep for successfully shepherding a question out of super-protected gives incentive to the asker to improve the question and the mentor to help.

  • Rewarding hunting down duplicates does not seem to be controversial. But, I think it is fair to remove rep on answers to a question marked as duplicate. The answers can be moved to the duplicated question, and voting on the answer can be started anew.

  • The most controversial suggestion is giving rep to the receiver of a downvote. The intention of downvotes is to reflect on the quality of the question or answer, not punish the contributor. I know that many feel without negative reinforcement, low quality contributors will not try to improve, but I challenge that notion, and I encourage others in the community to challenge it as well.
    As I explained in a comment, if we believe that rep is a measure of experience, then enduring downvotes should be reflected as having gained experience. But, any rep gained by an upvote can be lost if the upvote is undone. So, the same is true of the rep gained by a downvote. And all rep gained would be removed if the question is closed if my last suggestion is implemented.
    I am not thinking very much rep would be granted. Perhaps one rep point for every two downvotes.
    I argue that getting their question closed because it could not be promoted out of super-protected, or the additional rep gained from successful promotion, will be enough of an incentive to improve the quality of the questions presented, which I think is in everyone's interest.

  • Closed questions should cause rep gained to be deleted. This is meant to discourage contributing answers to a low-quality question. Instead, the effort should be spent trying to improve the question into a high-quality question.

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  • 1
    I expect a lot of downvotes for this post...
    – jxh
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 1:22
  • 12
    This won't work for smaller/new tags that sometimes don't even have gold badge holders. Also it really sounds like a the rich get richer situation with having only gold badge holders able to answer. Rep for dupes sounds nice. And seriously rep for downvotes? Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 5:35
  • 2
    I upvoted it. It's innovative. It may not be the exact answer, but it's offering a different system. It's only by brainstorming we will find a better system (if that's what people want). I'd prefer an improvement.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 6:22
  • 5
    Reputation for duplicate finding: Good. But why would anyone get rep for downvotes? That would mean you get privileges for not knowing how to ask/answer with good content. I also don't think that gold-badge holder are in any way better in not answering bad questions. In almost all major tags, I can show you some user with >20k who never have taken any moderator action and gain rep by answering mainly low-quality stuff
    – BDL
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 6:37
  • 3
    @jxh Idea is to slow down newbies from posting answers to bad questions. Theoretically a good idea, but you forget that there are many high-rep users that do answer bad questions.
    – Rakete1111
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 8:32
  • 2
    removing rep for closed questions sounds interesting, for sure.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 9:21
  • 1
    This sure adds a new dimension (and a lot of text) to your answer. It sounds interesting. Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 9:23
  • 1
    @YvetteColomb: How many downvotes before the post becomes totally transparent?
    – jxh
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 9:42
  • 2
    I actually removed my downvote because this sounds very interesting. But I have a really hard time wrapping my head around your idea of giving rep for downvotes. I think you see a downvote as feedback (correct me if I'm wrong) and getting feedback is a good thing (I think it is). But I don't think you should get rep from just getting feedback, because everyone gets feedback. I think you should get rep if you acted on that feedback (positively). Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 10:00
  • 2
    You're assuming all bad questions get closed. Even there, though, rewarding an attempt sends the wrong message. It says, "Thanks for trying, it's not what we wanted, but here's a treat anyways!" It just encourages the wrong behaviour. Then their question gets closed, we take it away, and now they're just confused as to what happened. It rewards initial behaviour, and then punishes them once curation is done with them. That's far more frustrating than just straight up telling them, "This is wrong. Don't do that."
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 17:56
  • 3
    Yes, respect is earned. And by dumping a homework or other low effort question on us, they show the respect they hold for SO. Removal (and application!) of rep is an understandable event, and effort gets rewarded, like it should.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 18:03
  • 5
    I don't think your view of new users is really based in reality. Everything negative that happens to them is arbitrary? I don't think so. Standards are applied at least somewhat consistently, or SO just wouldn't work at all. As for rep preservation...many of them don't care; they'll just abandon or delete the account, and make another once they have another problem. They're not here to help. They're here to get help.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 18:04
  • 5
    Mentoring such users does nothing but exhaust the mentors, thereby depleting the ability to actually help curate content that's at least somewhat acceptable, instead of the deplorably bad stuff.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 18:07
  • 7
    My stance is rooted in personal responsibility; users are responsible for their own behaviour. They are not entitled to an answer. They are not entitled to help. They need to invest enough of their own effort to generate a question good enough to attract attention to get help. None of your suggestions really help with those users; all they do is prop up those who already demonstrate the inability to actually put effort in.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 18:09
  • 2
    I disagree. You're focusing too much on what a user does, instead of the content they post. I don't think we're going to come to any agreement here, so I think we're going to need to respectfully agree to disagree.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 31, 2018 at 18:13

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