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In reflection of the new Code of Conduct, would allowing a "hi" in questions (and a "thank you" in comments) help create a welcoming atmosphere? I've had such type of wordings either removed, or not meet the minimum length critera, when using Stack Overflow (I'm sure for good reasons of conciseness). Thank you!

PS: Downvotes of questions which are formulated wrongly, or lack detail, feel similarly unwelcoming to newcomers (and again I'm sure there's good reasons to have them).

PPS: The "Hi!" that preceded my question here was auto-removed.

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    Stack Overflow is not a social network, it's a knowledge base. For the same reason Wikipedia articles and MDN documentation don't start with "Dear reader" or "To whom it may concern", so don't questions and answers here. It's noise. See also Should 'Hi', 'thanks', taglines, and salutations be removed from posts?.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 12:21
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    Question should provide an MCVE and that's it. It doesn't need all the other noise to go with it. Remember to a programmer we need details, not formalities. A hi or a thank you doesn't help me help you.
    – Bugs
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 12:24
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    Removing "hi" is a feature and a good one IMO. See also: meta.stackexchange.com/a/93989/158100
    – rene
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 12:29
  • Some users like the human formalities, some do not. SO policy says that they are unwanted noise and, since the tools that are unavoidably used for software development don't use such language, it's a reasonable and defensible POV. Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 12:31
  • IIRC, the "be welcoming" blog post explicitly said we shouldn't be editing "thanks" out of posts (any more). Not that I agree. Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 13:46
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    @Dukeling: That blog post said more things the community isn't too happy with.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 13:46
  • CodeCaster & others, I understand it's noise, as I said in my original post (see title). My question was merely whether it would create a more welcoming atmosphere as per StackOverflow's recent aims. Whether that better atmosphere would then in sum be worth it to justify more noise is yet another question. Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 14:13
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    @Philipp and I think the response you’re getting is something along the lines of: it’s a moot point - it’s noise, so there’s no need to discuss whether an arbitrary volume of people would consider it “welcoming” or not
    – Clive
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 15:26
  • @Clive, thanks. I'd have loved to have an actual discussion on my question of whether it would be more welcoming, though (not whether if it's then more appropriate in sum, welcoming-ness being just one property in the mix of properties, such as conciseness), but can't see any as of yet. I guess the downvotes may also suppress further discussion as the question is lowered in visibility, but maybe it's not, and StackOverflow treats downvoted questions with the same visibility. Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 15:32
  • I think that’s going to be difficult; not through any fault of yours, but this is a sore subject at the moment. A not insignificant proportion of the community do not agree with, and have actually extensively spoken out against, these new ideas from the company. This is not an easy discussion to have when some people have no intention of even reading this “Code of Conduct”, let alone following what it says :)
    – Clive
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 15:46
  • Right gotcha! What I'm most interested in really is why the StackOverflow powers that be themselves don't foster a basic level of humanity if their aim is, quote, "kindness", but rather enable systemic undermining of those in their UX (removal of "Hi" etc.). If tenseness is what they're going for, that's what they get, not necessarily kindness. It would have been nice to have an actual discussion of all that here, as all UX is a gradual balancing and rarely black & white, but I fear that downvote-based systems often suppress diverse perspectives, perpetuating groupthink without nuances. Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 16:29
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    You’re probably going to find even bigger contradictions than that at the moment, I think it’s fair to say this is something of a transitional phase. Quite what it will end up transitioning into is anyone’s guess right now
    – Clive
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 17:33
  • I'd be curious what those other contradictions are. Not sure the comment section is the "allowed" place to discuss that :) Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 17:51
  • @CodeCaster, thanks, that link was super-interesting to read -- it shows this was actually a debate which once showed two sides, and its accepted answer can actually be counter-argued, i.e. 1) "hi" could simply be removed from previews only, 2) it equals greetings with "snarky humor" when they may even help prevent snark by being friendly, and 3) it's a slippery slope fallacy to presume that "hi" would lead to having to read short bios in questions. It's almost an Onion headline, "Website which automatically removed 100,000 of greetings and thank yous faces issues of feeling inhuman." Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 18:03
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    Related: Should we really allow thank-you comments?
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 19:47

2 Answers 2

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No, it's noise.

We shouldn't be lowering our standards of quality in order to make the OP feel fuzzy.

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    Thanks everyone. To clarify, my question was not whether it's noise, but whether it would help create a more welcoming atmoshphere as per StackOverflow's recent aims based on the Code of Conduct. At -20 downvotes it's clear that my question isn't welcome, and that's fine of course, but I just wanted to explain what I meant by it -- i.e. whether being welcoming is also a balancing act in counter-relation to conciseness... and I wasn't even asking what's better in sum, merely if it were to create a more welcoming atmosphere. Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 14:07
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    @PhilippLenssen The answer to wether or not it would create a more welcoming atmosphere is no, because it's noise. Also, I'd suggest you revisit your understanding of downvotes. -20 does not mean unwelcoming. -20 is a signal that we disagree with your question / opinion, not that you should not have asked it. Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 15:20
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    @PhilippLenssen Right, "disagreeing with a question" as in "disagreeing with its proposition", is what is generally meant on meta. (There are quirks, and not everyone agrees, but it's the less broken definition of votes on meta I can come up with). As for the relation between the two, it's because I sincerely and completely believe that noise, as opposed to signal in a question / answer, is unwelcoming. I think that is some kind of consensus. Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 16:03
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    Right, thanks. So just to understand, adding a "Hi" and "Thank you" would, in your opinion, make the tone of StackOverflow feel less welcoming as per StackOverflow's recent aims of kindness, right? Mind you, I'm a programmer, I want to get to my information fast too -- but in my opinion, a preceding "Hi" takes away nothing from getting to it, and a final "Thank you" will indeed make me feel better about having helped. Though I guess as per StackOverflow majority opinion (which is often all that is seen in heavily up/downvote-based systems), that would be sorted into useless "feeling fuzzy". Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 16:21
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    @PhilippLenssen When you open up a dictionary and go to look up the definition of a word, do you expect to see, "thanks for reading" at the end of it? (Not at the end of the whole dictionary, at the end of every single definition.) Do you expect to see, "Hi, thanks for reading my definition" at the start of each one? Are dictionary authors that don't do that being unwelcoming to their readers?
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 19:13
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    @Servy I actually hate noise, but your argument is flawed. A dictionary definition doesn't have a signature "Servy 173K rep". You wish it was an apples to apples comparison but it really isn't
    – D-Klotz
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 19:23
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    I would like to apologize for using a "wolf in sheeps clothing" image in my answer. I only noticed your avatar when I re-read your answer. Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 19:27
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    @Servy the layout is different. Open your dictionary. Do you see any signature after each definition? Obviously not. Here you do. That means the comparison isn't the same.
    – D-Klotz
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 19:37
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    @D-Klotz Yes, I explained why one needs a citation after each entry and the other doesn't. I didn't say that there are literally no differences between the two, I said, the differences don't apply to the issue at hand. How does the legal requirement for a citation below SO posts affect the appropriateness of pleasantries in the content itself? When comparing any two things you aren't limited to only comparing things that are literally indistinguishable; that's pointless. You compare things where the differences don't make the comparisons invalid.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 19:39
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    @D-Klotz That's a post explaining why they don't belong in posts.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 19:45
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    @D-Klotz It opens by explaining why we don't want them in posts. Yes, it goes on to say why some people keep trying to post them anyway. That doesn't change the fact that they don't belong there. The last line, again, also specifically says that we should be editing this kind of content out of posts.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 19:58
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    @D-Klotz I think your interpretation is off. Yes, we want to be more welcoming, but not at the expense of signal over noise. Pleasantries are noise. Human nature wants pleasantries. There's no need to bite someone's head off for saying thanks, but neither is there any reason to keep it. Strip it out, and continue with your day.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 20:28
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    "I think the point of what I linked is to accept that and let it slide." The post specifically says the opposite. Very explicitly.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 20:45
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    Haha, @JonEricson, at least I’m not disguising myself... or am I?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 22:52
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    What's not considered in this whole "wecloming" debacle, is how much less welcoming this site becomes to experienced users, when we're hindered in the site's moderation.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 9, 2018 at 6:54
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Clearly "hi", "thanks" and other salutations are a distraction from the content of the question (and, by extension, answers). It won't do to encourage them as they'll need to be edited out either in the text itself or mentally by all future readers. Not including them in the first place is, of course, the ideal solution.

And yet humans have these sorts of conventions for a reason. I have a friend who greets others with a big smile, firm handshake and "How are you, coach?" I have another friend who finds a way to give everyone she meets a hug. And I know a guy who starts off meeting people with a serious face and folded arms. (It's a joke. He plays it as long as possible before breaking into a laugh.) These expressions let me know what sort of relationship the other person is interested in pursuing.

So when new users use words like "thanks", they are trying to convey something like:

I'm new here and I don't know the rules. But I want a positive relationship between us and so I'm trying to communicate that.

Cruelly, our culture interprets those words to mean:

I'm new here and I don't know the rules. Also, I'm not interested in learning your culture and just want to get a quick answer.

I submit that's a tragically broken interface. As an American (USA! USA!) I've visited a dozen or so foreign countries. I've used my broken Spanish, three words in Italian and non-standard English to talk to folks and in every case I've been greeted with compassion not derision. When outsiders come to a place I'm comfortable in, I similarly give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to cultural differences. It's sorta like Postel's Law for human interaction.

Wolf in a sheep skin.

So what is the relationship between askers and the community supposed to look like? Well, there are askers who legitimately don't care about Stack Overflow, just want someone to write their code (i.e., outsource their job) and mask it with pleasantries. But it's pretty hard to spot bad actors right away. Humans have a natural tendency to attribute hostile intentions in others. Wikipedia's assume good faith principle goes a long way to fighting that bias. And so, we should mentally add whatever pleasantries we'd expect to questions and edit out pleasantries when they distract from the content.

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    I find that the argument about this is a reference site and dictionary reference to be off the mark. As I said earlier, people see signatures. I see "Jon Ericson", that to me means I should extend a common Hello or Thank you etc.. Perhaps the answer should be that the "hi and thank you(s)" are stripped by javascript. It becomes an option.
    – D-Klotz
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 19:33
  • @D-Klotz: Howdy! The miracle of the site is that content that starts off as a transaction between an asker and a handful of answerers can become a a valuable resource for millions of others. I personally enjoy the thought that some content I wrote might be referenced by others and I truly want it to be as useful as possible. And it's perhaps a bit of ego, but I do want my name attached to that content. Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 19:43
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    Making it an option means we're deciding to go with the default but want the fig-leaf of an alternative, @D-Klotz - the vast, vast majority of readers and participants will never change that option. Sometimes, that's useful: behaviors that are reasonable for the majority but a hardship for a few. But beware the danger of punting a hard decision into an option.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 19:45
  • @JonEricson I agree.
    – D-Klotz
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 19:47
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    Re: "broken interface". The main problem that produces the "hello and thank you" inclusions is not primarily niceties, so much as it is a misunderstanding of audience. The audience of a Stack Overflow question is massive, in general (sure, some questions receive almost no views), and yet the vast majority of question askers do not write to that target audience; they are instead picturing an informal interaction between themselves, and one other user answering. I think this is the primary misunderstanding which leads to "thanks" and "hello",
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 21:26
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    and also leads to the misunderstanding that other users not answering are simply making trouble. Is that a problem with the interface though? I am not sure, I think it is at core part of the design of the platform: are we here to help and answer at an individual level, or to pigeonhole content that only fits to a massive audience? Having both is currently the "nice to have", but the reality is that on a case by case basis it is generally one or the other and the division between those two cases seems to lead a lot of confusion.
    – Travis J
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 21:26
  • I look at the problems or benefits of UX as being systemic. Adding pleasentries in my own head may work for me, but if not everyone is doing it, wouldn't work for StackOverflow's proposed new aim of rooting conduct in "kindness" (as a feel of welcombess, but also harshness, can propagate, i.e. the people who look for kindness may just leave thus causing even less kindness). Just to add, I think your answer is great, because you're actually discussing the issue at hand... thank you for that! (There, I said it! Humanizing my words may even mean less defensive noise is needed in a counter reply.) Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 21:37
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    @PhilippLenssen If you try to turn the site into a place that focuses on personal interactions, rather than being a useful repository of knowledge, then the site becomes a social network. There are already lots of those places. They're lots of fun for the people looking for that. What they aren't is useful who are trying to solve their programming problems.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 22:09
  • @TravisJ: I was thinking in terms of cultural interface, but yes, this is a systematic problem too. When I write a question, I tend to think of my question going to a handful of users and not necessarily to all users of site who will ever read the question. But I happen to know that those handful of users prefer not to have a lot of extra words that distract from the question. I'm also comfortable with future users changing my words to make my question better. Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 22:18
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    @Servy: So, uh, I kinda thing there are lots of social networks that are very effective at solving programming problems. The advantage of Stack Overflow is that people can get help without having the right type of acquaintances. The risk I see now is that we are substituting in other cultural rituals in order to get help. "Don't say thanks" seems less like a helpful hint for producing good content and more like a shibboleth. Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 22:24
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    @JonEricson Social networks are often a good place for one person to get help for their one problem. They tend to be fairly poor at making that solution useful for other people with the same problem. In fact, that problem was so frustrating that it was literally the reason SO was created, to solve that exact problem. Also I don't think I've ever seen anyone say, "I won't answer your question until you remove the thank you". People just edit it out when they see it, and mention to people that they should avoid including it in the future. That's not some sort of exclusionary password.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 22:36
  • Is there really a strong push to be Pleasant? To always say Hello? Who is actually pushing for this @Servy? I thought the keyword in the OP was "allowing". My earlier point is, people have a signature, that does imply a certain level of human touch. Given that, people ARE going to start out with human interactions. A better model Servy, for you would be a SO without any signatures or rep. Just rankings of the questions an answers. A completely impersonal system. I'd be fine with that, for the record, but it isn't what is here.
    – D-Klotz
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 22:36
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    @D-Klotz Books also have the authors name listed. So do published academic papers. Citing the name of the author of the content doesn't necessarily mean that the iteration is a personal private chat. In fact, the citation of the author of the content is a legal requirement due to the licence the content is using. SO couldn't remove the citation even if they wanted to (they could remove the rep, but not the name).
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 22:40
  • @Servy all you've said is that it has to be there. A published paper isn't really the same context. You and I can't interact over a published paper.
    – D-Klotz
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 22:45
  • I think we are beating a dead horse. We have many who want a simple reference site. We have new users that see people asking question and getting answers. Some people will be polite and use interactions that people use. Should we allow those and silently edit them out without calling attention to it in a negative way. I say yes. I'm sure there are plenty of canned messages or phrases others have come up with to gently push the user to do so.
    – D-Klotz
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 22:51

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