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Simple and short question here this time.

The Code of Conduct makes no mention of the word "learn" or "teach" in the context of "learning".
The banner does.

Why is this? (Cue mild PTSD from earlier revision)

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    For the ones that have already hidden the banner, the banner text is: Join us in building a kind, collaborative learning community via our updated Code of Conduct »
    – Erik A
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:06
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    So the banner includes the word "learning" while the CoC does not. Why could this be a problem? This is not a rhetorical question: I have no idea why someone could possibly have a problem with that. And it's not misleading either.
    – Michael
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 22:20
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    @Michael: first draft of the CoC and second draft of the CoC for context. Gearing the community towards learning smells like a scope change, one that the CoC isn't intended to convey.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 22:24
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    I could argue that the emphasis is on "kind" and "collaborative", while the site already is a "learning community". The CoC does not try to change some random community into a "learning community", it tries to turn a "unwelcoming" "learning community" into a "kind, collaborative" "learning community". They could remove the word "learning" from the banner text and the text would convey the same meaning to me.
    – Michael
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 22:27
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    @Michael: You've made my point. Just removing the word "learning" would be enough to pacify me. You're welcome to make an argument on whatever part otherwise you feel is emphasized, but as long as I see "learning", I genuinely can't hear it - "learning" has arrested my attention.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 22:35
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    I have never understood your concern about this, because Stack Overflow has been a learning community since day one.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 22:52
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    @TylerH: Yep, there goes that PTSD again. You've evoked unpleasant memories about trying to define the scope of the site. If you want context look at a few of my recent questions. Yeah, I think I'm gonna just take a chill pill for this one.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 22:54
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    @Makoto First, I don't think it's appropriate for you to refer to your feelings about Stack Overflow being a learning community as PTSD--that cheapens it for people who've lived through trauma and developed a serious mental disorder from it. Second, saying Stack Overflow is a learning community is not defining the scope of the site; it's defining the point of the site. What's the point of collecting answers to questions if not to learn from them?
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 23:18
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    @Makoto: do you think SO is a "learning community"? The word "learning" is as innocent as the word "restaurant" when trying to describe my local italian pizza seller that I visited last week for eating purposes. Calling SO a "learning community" is not only correct, it also gives some context to the whole statement, which is a good thing IMHO. You could argue that "restaurant" doesn't define the scope of the place that I met. Would you? I understand that the word "learning" triggers you, but someone else may be triggered by the word "restaurant"..
    – Michael
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 12:26

1 Answer 1

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This is something I've been struggling with for a while now. I have some thoughts, but... Nothing particularly well-organized.

First though, a personal admission: I'm mostly self-taught as a programmer, but... I've never really gotten in the habit of asking questions as a core part of that process. Before I had access to The Internet, there wasn't anyone I could ask; after, there was such a smorgasbord of information available that I didn't need to. Asking a question is usually something I do when I'm stuck - I've exhausted all obvious avenues for research and need a new place to look. So to this day, I kinda struggle to wrap my head around the mindset of someone who is both learning to program and who asks a lot of questions. My default assumption has always been, "they're completely lost; a drowning swimmer in a sea of information, looking for a lifeline". But... This doesn't really match up with a lot of what we see on Stack Overflow...

And then the other day... I found this on Twitter:

Nonconsensual teaching - regardless of good intent - assumes the other party knows less, and demonstrates that lack to both the other person and any bystanders. It removes agency from the other person to agree to the presupposition, or to what's next.

It's a power play.

If reading that bothers you, strikes you as a really twisted, hostile outlook... Yeah, same here. I don't want to work with people who treat learning as a burden, much less try to help them for free. But, let's put those feelings aside for a minute - what we want, what we expect, isn't what we get. You don't need me to tell you that there are plenty of folks on SO who very much do not want to learn, who will react with this same hostility - or more - to any attempt to teach them, and yet... Who are none the less posting questions every day. So if we want to understand them - and I do - then let's take this attitude at face value. If this is truly how some folks are approaching the site, it explains an awful lot of weird behavior:

  • negative reactions to duplicate-closing
  • negative reactions to requests for context or other clarifications
  • overt hostility toward attempts to explain underlying concepts or provide "fishing lessons" (think: links to those questions on how to debug null pointer exceptions)
  • copy-paste coding (and the popularity of answers that facilitate blind reuse of code or commands vs. those that explain the function of said code)
  • comments on answers requesting specific modifications to code

In short: if you look at teaching as being the winning move in a "power play", then learning is losing. For anyone coming in with this mindset, a helpful response is not one that tries to teach them anything - it's the one that gives them what they need, written to spec, with a minimum amount of back-talk.

...and that's pretty depressing, right? It suggests that Stack Overflow - that every programming site - is doomed to sooner or later end up as one of those terrible "snippet sites" where half the snippets don't work, the rest are full of nightmare security holes, and there's no explanation for anything.

But, maybe it doesn't have to end that way...

Collaboration as an end-run around resistance to learning

Let's assume we have a tremendous volume of users who don't want to learn anything, or at very least don't want to be taught anything. That may not be an accurate assumption - but I kinda suspect it is. How can we possibly accomplish anything useful here?

Well... What if we just didn't say that we're teaching anyone? The magic word here is "collaborate" - we're not teachers and students, we're collaborators; you're not here to listen and learn, you're here to stop, collaborate and listen

vanilla ice - stop. collaborate and listen.

Granted, in any given "collaboration" someone's likely gonna know a heck of a lot more than everyone else. But... It's not necessarily going to be the same person in every exchange; nobody is the expert in everything.

And, this actually mirrors what we've been able to observe for years now: yes, there are a lot of people who only answer, and a lot of people who only ask... But a fair number of answerers are folks who use the exercise as a way to teach themselves, and a fair number of askers go on to become answerers. As easy as it is to fixate on the sweatshop coders who take and take and never give back, they're kind of a minority - albeit a particularly visible one.

Turns out, most folks actually do want to collaborate, even if they don't think they want to learn.

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    "It suggests that Stack Overflow - that every programming site - is doomed to sooner or later end up as one of those terrible 'snippet sites'" Well, only if the site focuses on catering to those users, rather than the other people who are interested in improving their level of understanding. Just because the group you describe represents a lot of users doesn't mean they represent all users, or that a site can't function without catering to such users.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:39
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    The part of your answer on collaboration reads like just a re-branding of the behaviors you describe earlier without using the words "teach" or "learning". But the issue is that, at the moment, people are rarely using those words as it is when performing those actions. When someone posts an answer that exlains a concept, rather than containing code to copy-paste with no explanation, they don't often say, "Let me teach you how to X", or "You need to learn X." (Sometimes they do, but usually they don't.) They just explain the thing, or link to the duplicate, etc.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:42
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    So I think there's some useful insight into describing why these behaviors are causing friction, but I don't see how the different terminology proposed would do anything to fix the problem.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:43
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    You could say that about the whole CoC @servy: it's about setting reasonable expectations for folks in a palatable way, but it doesn't actually change anything.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:48
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    "Nonconsensual teaching" - what the heck does that mean?
    – user2100815
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:49
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    Also, upon reflection, while there's useful information here, it doesn't seem to answer the question being asked.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:53
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    @Shog9: I'm going to admit that I'm a bit frazzled out from the whole CoC rework as evidenced by my two posts on the CoC revisions directly. I'm a relatively simple man in this context; if I don't see the word "learning", my immediate visceral reaction won't be to think that people who say they're just trying to learn when they post a horribly broad question have some kind of viable defense that I'm not seeing. I fully agree with Servy's stance in that this really doesn't change anything, but the concern that someone's going to be able to get away with posting crap here is quite strong.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:53
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    @NeilButterworth If you view teaching as a power play where the teacher is the "winner" and the learner is the "loser", then teaching somebody without their consent is a hostile action. I guess this kind of thing is probably an eventual consequence of subscribing to a subjectivist epistemology.
    – Radiodef
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:56
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    People "get away" with posting crap all the time, @Makoto. It's been a lotta years since we've been able to keep up with the amount of crap that gets posted every day; I don't think this makes one bit of difference in that regard. Here's the thing: nobody stops and asks, "am I allowed to post a half-assed question" - they just post it. The folks who get discouraged tend to be the ones who were already kinda uneasy about posting to begin with.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:58
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    @Radiodef " If you view teaching as a power play where the teacher is the "winner" and the learner is the "loser", then teaching somebody without their consent is a hostile action." - but does any sane person see teaching like that??? I worked for years in commercial training and higher education, and I can't see how a company or a college with that attitude could possibly survive.
    – user2100815
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:59
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    The CoC is pretty far removed from topicality or scope, @Makoto. And the folks who paste their justifications together like ransom notes from bits and pieces of "official" text have never been lacking for source material to take out of context.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 21:05
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    I hope that 's really the case then @Shog9. I want to acquiesce at this point, but seeing "learning" in that banner is really causing some tension. I'll give it a day or so and chill out instead.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 21:09
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    @Shog9 I agree with your list of behaviors explained by that interpretation, but I think only some of the times we see those behaviors can be attributed to that interpretation; I think just as often (or close to it) people behave/react that way for other reasons such as the way things were said or the fact that they're in a time crunch or don't have the desire to learn the deep underpinnings of what a null pointer is (for example)... they just need it fixed. I've certainly encountered problems before where I want to fix it but can't spend 2 weeks learning what really causes it.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 21:51
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    If by, "collaborate", you mean, "do my work for me", I can agree with that. But I'm sorta on the same page as most people; it feels too much like just rewording the issue and thereby implicitly accepting that crap gets posted and we shouldn't worry about it. That seems less like curation and more like just giving up.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 22:34
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    Shog, I will have to see this with cynicism considering my experience here. If collaboration was really a maxima that SE strive to achieve, you would be dedicating much more resources towards making said collaboration easier and more efficient and would also preempt any site specific policy that is anti-collaborative (and over all, prevent it from spilling to other sites). Instead of having to dedicate resources trying to concoct an subjective tool to police ourself, revamping the objective tools that allows better policing is more effective and measurable...
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 0:40

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