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From the new banner I saw pointing to the new Code of Conduct

I feel like this is asking moderators to be babysitters, "Now be nice, children!"

I also feel like it's great to have a community rooted in collaboration and mutual respect, but... kindness? It feels like that should be more of a "nice-to-have".

I admit I also felt a bit "pinged" by the example:

"If you bothered to read my question, you’d know it’s not a duplicate." ==> "I don’t think this is a duplicate. My question is about cement board, while the question you linked is about drywall"

...well, because frankly, that's happened to me on more than one occasion and there should be (IMHO) some scolding done when a person skims over a question, decides he or she knows what is being asked, and immediately votes to close based upon some keywords. Speaking of mutual respect, I find that sort of behavior quite disrespectful.

Maybe I'm unusual, but I like to think of SO as a site of professionals. Mutual respect, collaboration, mentoring, these are all things professionals do. Kindness? Doesn't seem to fit.

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    So, you don't like the rules about being nice because you don't want to be nice. Isn't that why we have rules? Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 17:44
  • 54
    You're right. I don't want to be nice. I want to be effective, and productive. Nice is just a bonus, I don't feel it should be a goal.
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 17:44
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    Are you saying that professionals shouldn't be nice? We've had "Be nice" as a basic part of policy for years now. We even had a page specifically outlining that policy. Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 17:58
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    Note that multiple drafts of the code of conduct have been discussed in depth on MSE, the latest in this discussion. This means a discussion of the gist of the CoC is a bit late to the party.
    – Erik A
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 17:59
  • 26
    Or putting it more to the point, how is saying, "If you bothered to read my question, you’d know it’s not a duplicate," a useful comment? The person who closed it as a duplicate clearly believes that they did read it. So it's not going to make them change their mind. So what's the point of it besides expressing your frustration? Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 17:59
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    "Be nice" has been with us since the very beginning of the site. This community has managed to "Be tolerant of others who may not know everything you know." and be effective, so we're not going to change that now.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 18:00
  • 13
    "Be nice" is a good rule of thumb (policy) and I'm not challenging that; I don't want to come across like "I just want to be mean to people". I just don't think it makes sense as a "core value"... people don't come here for emotional support, they're looking for effective and practical answers/ advice.
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 18:06
  • 29
    I don't think any interpretation of "be nice" that translates to "fawning flattery" is useful, @Jeremy... But, one that translates to "stay focused on communication that educates rather than tears down" is very useful for a Q&A site. You'll note that "be nice" has always been paired with "be honest" in the guidance: the goal here should always be to enlighten others, and sadly too often we all resort to language that gets in the way of that goal rather than furthering it.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 18:11
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    @Shog9 specifically, I'm referring to the CoC which says the community is "rooted in kindness". I am all for a policy of being nice, I think it's generally more productive and effective... but not always, and when there's a conflict between being nice and being effective, one should opt for being effective. This seems contrary to the new CoC.
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 18:14
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    Perhaps a case where someone is doing something that's actually dangerous, and you comment with, "that's a really bad idea, you could nuke your database." It's not "kind", but it's important. Maybe someone will get their feelings hurt, but it's for a good reason. (bit of a contrived example, I admit)
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 18:20
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    @JeremyHolovacs: Kindness is often very subjective (which is a problem in itself). But I wouldn't call your comment unfriendly. It would be unfriendly to state "Only a person without any knowledge about that technology could suggest something like this. You could nuke your database". I think as long as you act the same way you would speak with colleagues in your company, everything should be fine.
    – BDL
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 18:24
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    @ryanyuyu are you making a personal attack based upon my icon? That's a violation of the Code of Conduct you know.
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 18:34
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    @JeremyHolovacs if I ignored repeated moderator warnings/suspensions I'd expect to be expelled. That is totally appropriate. I'm not going to be expelled from a single comment.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 18:42
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    @JeremyHolovacs look, I personally think kindness is a good standard to have. I'm sorry about my previous hypocritical comments. For the record, I am not arguing against the new CoC. If you search for some of the other welcoming posts, you'll find I'm in a minority of users who aren't very skeptical about either the intentions or the implementation of the new CoC.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 19:04
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    I feel like this is asking moderators to be babysitters, "Now be nice, children!" oh I hear you. It's exhausting.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 21:20

6 Answers 6

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I like to think of SO as a site of professionals.

Me too. And in practice that means people who are a little bit preoccupied with their status, with saving face in front of others. When your bread & butter depends on being recognized for your skill, someone talking down to you cuts a bit more deeply than when they're knocking, say, a casual hobby.

there should be (IMHO) some scolding done when a person skims over a question, decides he or she knows what is being asked, and immediately votes to close based upon some keywords.

To what end? What's your goal here: to keep the question open and convince the voter to be more careful in the future, or... Vent. Nobody here is your kid that you can scold them and they have to listen; if you're gonna go to the trouble of pointing out that someone is wrong, you probably want to do it in a way that'll actually get through to them.

I feel like this is asking moderators to be babysitters, "Now be nice, children!"

Naw; babies don't need a lot of nuance or subtlety in correction. It's asking moderators - and on Stack Overflow, all of us are moderators - to be adult-sitters, which is a whole 'nother level of difficulty. It's asking us to watch out for one another, to guide and correct, to accept guidance and correction, to teach and to learn.

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    "When your bread & butter depends on being recognized for a skill" that you do not actually have is a root of quite a few problematic exchanges on SO.
    – user6655984
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 19:24
  • TBH, I'd be lying if I said venting wasn't part of it, but often times I feel it can slow down other people from jumping on the "close as duplicate" bandwagon. Some people get click-happy but pause and evaluate more closely when they see someone else thought it should be obvious it's not a duplicate.
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 19:42
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    To what end? So as to not lie or be passive aggressive. It's one thing not being nasty or passive aggressive or assuming you have have influence or power when you have none; it's another to pretend to be nice when you genuinely think someone's behavior isn't okay. you probably want to do it in a way that'll actually get through to them. to be clear that isn't necessarily to do with nice or nasty... it is more to do with respect, honesty and not deliberately trying to offend. I think there is a difference between venting and not pretending.
    – Att Righ
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 1:55
  • The code of conduct doesn't state if we are allowed to use sarcasm on the main site, I supposed it's ok as long as it's not a mean or abusive sarcasm... Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 13:13
  • On sarcasm, @Antoine
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 18:23
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    If your choices in a given interaction are scolding, lying or subtle cutting remarks, it might be time to take a step back and reflect on whether that's a conversation you even want to be involved in, @Att. Normally, it should be possible to point out errors without engaging in such tactics. As for being effective... See the start of this answer, about giving folks a chance to save face. I'll admit I'm wrong far sooner to someone who calmly points out my mistake than someone who seems to take delight in their chance to trumpet my errors.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 18:27
  • @Shog9 "I'll admit I'm wrong far sooner to someone who calmly points out my mistake"... that's a good many of us, but there's also a good many that do not react in such a manner. If everyone was like that, I think we probably wouldn't be having this discussion now.
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 9, 2018 at 11:14
  • @Shog9 "errors without engaging in such tactics."* But can you do this while being nice The dynamics that have most annoyed me are "X-Y projection" ("I'm going to answer a related question and I don't care what your question is"), "we're helping you, do what we say" type interactions. Is saying "No. I don't see how this helps, give me a better argument" nasty? What about responding to resultant "We are just trying to help you. Stop being arrogant and give us information" in a similar manner. Is ignoring these comments nice? What is the line between "nasty" and "conflict".
    – Att Righ
    Commented Aug 9, 2018 at 14:12
  • @Shog9 I'm all for "minimal nastiness". But this allowed from of nastiness has to extend to either saying no and directly contradicting people's arguments or ignoring people. Also "stepping back" when this impedes you from asking a question (e.g. if people want to close your question as a duplicate in error) is not quite so simple as you imagine. You can step back but this is at a cost to yourself and the world.
    – Att Righ
    Commented Aug 9, 2018 at 14:22
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    Step back when you can't do anything productive, @Att. Step up when you can. If I had a nickle for every asker who torpedoed their chances of ever getting an answer by being offensively proactive in the defense of their question... I'd probably be retired and wouldn't have to think about this anymore.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 9, 2018 at 23:59
  • cuts a bit more deeply than when they're knocking, say, a casual hobby. I don't know about you, but I have left a "casual" site because they were too zealous for me and too occupied with being "right". I have been downvoted and called a liar for posting my experiences, despite explicitly saying "it worked for me, it will not work for everyone, but maybe it will for you". Sorry, but depending on which other SE sites you frequent, SO is the professional and nice site already.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 15:06
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    Yeah, there are definitely plenty of folks who aren't... casual... about their hobbies, @nvoigt. But for a new user dropping onto a site, it helps a lot to recognize the sorts of pressures (or lack thereof) that brought them to that point; idle curiosity about some cartoon they watched vs. their continued employment, etc.
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 15:13
  • Presumably the answer to "what is the goal?" is that goal of scolding is making the person feel bad, etching into their brain an emotional incentive structure over and over until it is strong enough to cause them to stop doing the unacceptable thing (either by figuring out how to make themselves do better, or making them go away). And over-conflating this-is-duplicate is at least as not-nice as scolding the person for not doing the bare minimum of paying attention.
    – mtraceur
    Commented Dec 28, 2021 at 19:56
  • To be clear, I think the question is misguided in its expressed focus on mandatory niceness, and is having trouble consciously or verbally pinning down the real problem, but they clearly gestured at it: enabling and empowering and protecting silent and implicit not-niceness (like willfully habitually failing to give people the minimum compassion and due diligence of paying attention to salient details when marking questions as duplicated) by making any response to that first already fired shot of not-niceness pay asymmetric costs of effort and time to not be explicitly not-nice.
    – mtraceur
    Commented Dec 28, 2021 at 20:03
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I think this question, or maybe the whole topic cries for some philosophical thoughts. For the sake of brevity, I just go with two quotes.

First, Rumi the famous Persian poet:

Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates:

At the first gate, ask yourself “Is it true?”

At the second gate ask, “Is it necessary?”

At the third gate ask, “Is it kind?”

And second, the story of the two wolfs:

Once upon a time, there was a grandfather, who told his grandson, “Grandson, there are two wolves inside of me. One wolf is white, good and altruistic, generous and kind, and the other wolf is black, mean and greedy, violent and angry. The two wolves are in a constant fight within me.”

The grandson, with wide eyes, says, “But which one will win, grandpa?”

And the grandfather says: “The one which I feed.”

So, yes, seriously: one can discuss this whole topic back and forth on the level of professionalism and attitude, and expectations towards community members.

Or you step back and only think about yourself, about the question which wolf you want to feed. About the kind of person you want to be. Not just once, occasionally, but all the time. ( and I am very much aware that I far too often make the wrong choice around here. I swallowed hard when I saw the "conduct" link today, and I will fight hard to keep remembering that )

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    Yeah, I've always thought that 3 questions was kinda BS, too. If it's true and necessary, it shouldn't matter if it's kind... it's true and it's necessary. That's enough.
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 19:23
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    One could argue that the first two gates are about the what, and the third one about the how. You can speak necessary truth and still be overly aggressive or humiliating.
    – GhostCat
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:08
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    I can't argue about its efficacy as a policy/ strategy towards life in general... I just don't feel like taking responsibility for anybody else's feelings on the matter. With the golden rule as my philosophy, if it was true and necessary, I'd want to be told even if it hurt my feelings. But I may be in the (significant) minority on that.
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:33
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    The poet, Rumi, called for us to consider our words and decide whether to speak them; he did not call for the sovereign power to make these considerations and apply censorship.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:35
  • As for the two wolves - I'd say that the black wolf is downtrodden, marginalized, muzzled; and the white wolf is condescending and self-righteous and overbearing. Or, in other words - the dichotomy is questionable.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 20:43
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    @einpoklum But people are not considering their words, so I don't see why this site shouldn't consider, and censor, the words on their behalves.
    – Tim
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 21:32
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    @Jeremy Holovacs If you change "kind" into "not deliberately nasty" perhaps it's more palatable. I often find, for example, that I'm tempted to write something passive aggressive, and instead I write something direct. Direct isn't exactly kind - but at the same time it shows more respect.
    – Att Righ
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 2:00
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    @einpoklum Such allegories are never perfect. That can be said about anything humans do, because we aren't perfect. So anything we do or say can be looked at from different angles. So, yes, as said, you can totally focus on the aspects that you raise in that comment, but it is also a valid option to take this little tale as a guideline for your personal goals. And to play devils advocate: could it be that some black wolfs don't like the brains of their owners think about such ideas, because well, it could result in the black wolves being fed less.
    – GhostCat
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 7:33
  • @einpoklum And, yes, I too have a problem with these two wolf tale. But my concern is rather the implicit notion in there "the white is pure and good", the black is the exact opposite. Made me remember that youtube from Malcom X.
    – GhostCat
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 7:38
  • @Tim: Yours is an opinion worth debating (which I won't do in this comment thread), but it is the perspective of Tim, not the poetry of Rumi :-)
    – einpoklum
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 10:20
  • @GhostCat Yeah, I wonder if this Cherokee story isn't a projection. After all, the myths of Aryans and their alleged superiority or purity are to some extent part of Persian cultural heritage: That's where the original Aryans lived.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 10:26
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    @JeremyHolovacs Today I learned a great lesson why kindness does matter big time. I put up another question here myself. All the feedback I got was true, probably necessary. Almost none was kind. And guess what? It took me hours to overcame the feeling of everybody just bashing on me. Reminding me of so many soft skill classes I took: it is damn important to show your appreciation to your counterpart. You see, in the end, when you decide to communicate, you have a goal. You want to achieve some sort of effect on the other side. When your output lacks kindness ...
    – GhostCat
    Commented Aug 20, 2018 at 17:55
  • ... you are most likely not going to achieve that goal. Because the other side will reject your input on the emotional layer. Thus: no matter how true and necessary your statements are ... when they are not kind enough, you could as well have said nothing. Because your words don't reach that layer in your counterpart that would be able to hear them. From that perspective, being kind isn't necessarily about the other person. You could simply see it as essential element of succesfull communication. Without it, your attempt of communication is less effective!
    – GhostCat
    Commented Aug 20, 2018 at 17:56
  • @GhostCat I'll have to disagree with you on this. Your level of receptiveness to not-kind (yet true and necessary) feedback is simply not a problem with the feedback; you seem to be suggesting that the one supplying the necessary information has assumed a responsibility of ensuring it's "well-received" and outside of politics (and romance) I know of no other field in life where that is the case. There's lots of feedback I've gotten over the years that was not kind but it was useful; it may annoy me but I've remained effective and improved as a result.
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 21, 2018 at 12:18
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This is one step of many.

The scenario that you mention is one that I quite literally think about late at night: "Erroneous duplicate closures are one of the biggest antagonists of engagement and one of the hardest problems we need to solve."

Well, actually, de-duplication and proper categorization and indexing at our scale is something more than a few could build nearly an entire career out of improving.

If interacting with the site makes you so angry that you feel justified in chiding someone publicly, we want you to blame us, not them, because you've hit a product pain point that we haven't fixed.

While giving someone a good 'talking to' and 'setting them straight' might seem as effective as it does cathartic, it's not the proper way to go about resolving conflict. You're angry because we didn't give you a button you could push with some sincere confidence that it would have a positive effect.

It's going to take a long time to fix these pain points.

We're eventually going to need to hire a PM just to work on portions of the product that cause people to disengage, or refrain from engaging based on what they've heard. Right now, it's in DAG's wheelhouse because we're using their developers to do it, but the 'welcome wagon' needs to become an autonomous team. We're actively recruiting, we're actively hiring, and we know what we need to invest to fix this stuff.

Our relevance could be the cost of our outbursts, and that's scary.

We're pointing the finger inward here, but to fix this, we need everyone's help. I need you to email me and scream like a pissed-off chef in a walk-in if you really need to get stuff off your chest instead of letting it burst out at someone else on the site publicly, because it's my fault that we haven't fixed the part of our product that set you off. And if some of that also happens to be your boss putting unrealistic expectations into scheduling, well, I'll take it too.

Just don't take it out on the people that really look up to the people that find success on Stack Overflow. And honestly? There's no new rules here, we're just codifying what we've been loosely and inconsistently enforcing for the past 5+ years (another big problem is groups of users making new rules without any mechanism for clear consensus, we need to re-work meta, too).

But, it's not over the top. In fact it keeps with our tradition of being just the minimum amount needed. We're going to see how it goes over time, checking in through tests and quick surveys every 6 months or so.

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    "You're angry because we didn't give you a button you could push"... in all seriousness, this sounds like the classic developer mistake of presuming all human problems can be solved with technology, and I'm deeply skeptical that this is true. Also, I'd like to challenge your assertion that it's "not the proper way to go about resolving conflict"... that also seems to require some justification, and I don't know how that assertion can be justified. What is "proper" in this context?
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 13:07
  • @JeremyHolovacs well, history kind of give humans the impression that technology has fixed most important human problems.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 13:47
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    @Braiam I'll just have to disagree with you on that...
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 15:05
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    @JeremyHolovacs With "me"? No, you would disagree with facts.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 18:36
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    @Braiam I would disagree with what you consider facts. IMO, "most important human problems" have not even been touched by technology, for example, egos, pride, selfishness, greed, violence, cruelty, etc. Those are "human" problems, have been our biggest problems, and technology has not significantly impacted them. You could even make a case that technology has made those problems worse.
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 18:39
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    @JeremyHolovacs so, the fact that we are pushing 7 billions individuals and are capable of feeding them, that our children aren't dying before the age of 5, that we have access to potable water, that we live longer now than ever, were never important human problems? I think that the problem is that we don't read enough history.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 9, 2018 at 12:27
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    @Braiam you seem to have some misunderstandings about my comment. I never claimed that technology cannot solve human problems, I am saying I am deeply skeptical that it can solve all human problems. Logistical, organizational, efficiency problems, yes absolutely technology has demonstrated its power here... but the problems we are talking about in this context are related to human interaction at an emotional and psychological level, and I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that technology has ever solved or can solve those sorts of problems.
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 9, 2018 at 19:00
  • @Braiam the part I disagreed with you on is "technology has fixed most important human problems"... we have a difference of opinion about what important human problems are. You are looking at hunger and child mortality, these are definitely problems, but I think the most important problems are foundational in nature, as mentioned above.
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 9, 2018 at 19:04
  • Tim, if I take you up on your offer to let me email you, you're not going to suddenly block emails from my account, are you...?
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 16:40
  • @Makoto I've never blocked anyone from email. In fact, the only time I ever blocked someone was on Twitter, and that was only for a few days until they worked some anxiety related stuff out. At least to my knowledge, anyway. Fire away, I guarantee you that I've heard much worse :P
    – user50049
    Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 16:48
  • So where's that semi-annual survey you were mentioning?
    – einpoklum
    Commented Nov 18, 2018 at 11:31
  • This answer might have just single-handedly given me everything I need to always hold back from snarling in the comments about conflated/erroneous duplicate markings. I guess we'll see over time, but damn... you get it, and you inspire confidence that it'll get fixed as soon as it can be.
    – mtraceur
    Commented Dec 28, 2021 at 21:03
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I want to address that specific example.

In this situation, we have two opposite points of view. One party believes there is a duplicate question, and the other believes there is a unique question.

The one who thinks it is duplicate most likely thinks they are doing a good deed by closing a duplicate question and directing the question's author towards the answer they desire.

The question's author believes they have been wronged, because the question will now not receive answers. They need it to be reopened to move forward.

Scenario one:

If you bothered to read my question, you’d know it’s not a duplicate.

This is unhelpful. The close voters are required to read the question. But the question close queue is thousands of questions deep, so any given question may not have gotten much careful reading. But making the assumption that it was totally unread is an unfair personal attack, which will put the reader on the defensive and more likely to look for reasons to support their original conclusion.

Scenario two:

I don’t think this is a duplicate. My question is about cement board, while the question you linked is about drywall.

This is helpful. Stating the specific reason why this question is new will help the question reviewers to re-open the question more easily. Or if they continue to insist it is a duplicate, they can directly address the specific reason (e.g. cement board vs drywall).

In conclusion, being nice is not in conflict with being professional and having mutual respect.

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    Well, I'll disagree with you on this... there are plenty of times when a sharp phrase will communicate something to the community much more effectively. It shouldn't be the OP's responsibility to point out how a close-voter is clearly wrong; the close-voter should be responsible for justifying his/ her close-vote. I think it depends on who you're trying to be "helpful" to; the fellow who didn't carefully read the question, or other readers that will put a little more effort in.
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 21, 2018 at 12:03
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    Jeremy you are leaving out the possibility that they read it yet misunderstood it, or other possibilities we may not know about. Also, yes, maybe shouldn't, but is. If there's a misunderstanding and the OP wants it clarified, it actually does become their responsibility to try to clear it up, assuming they want it cleared up. It does no good to wait for others to clear it up when one can oneself (and one can never be certain whether others spontaneously will). Finally, you haven't really rebutted the point. The point is one thing is helpful and another isn't, and the point stands.
    – Alex Hall
    Commented Sep 4, 2018 at 3:31
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For what it's worth, the only mention of "kindness" in the latest iteration of the Code of Conduct is in the subtitle. The statement "Be kind and friendly" was eventually replaced with statements such as these:

Be inclusive and respectful.

And frankly, respect is substantially more important to convey here. Kindness can be easily misinterpreted in this context. It was never an enforced policy that we had to act friendly or sugar-coat our words. On the other hand, there have always been some expectations of conduct.

  • You are asked to step out of your own needs and wishes in favor of the platform and other participating. This includes reminding yourself that the site is made possible by volunteers, and that your personal urgency for an answer to your question should not override the other decisions to curate the question accordingly.
  • You must respect that not everyone is willing to participate in the platform the same way as you do, or in a way that you personally would have preferred. While there are bad practices which can get you in trouble, there are others which sometimes get called out unwarranted, which isn't OK. For example, providing feedback when downvoting isn't mandatory, just like there are no demands for privileged users to use their curation privileges.
  • Any statements which basically amount to shaming an individual or group of participants is completely inappropriate. Scolding, bigotry, name calling, or insulting someone in some other way is not respectful and does not contribute to a good environment for what we're building.

So, in the end, this isn't about pushing "be nice FFS" down our throats, but it is a plea to contributing to the platform with some extra level of understanding. That we need these rules encoded this way may be a sign that we can't have nice things, but heh, last time I checked, we're on the internet. And Stack Overflow is a great place when compared to other corners of the Web.

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    "Kindness can be easily misinterpreted in this context" -- s/can be/has been//. It's not rare that it happens either Commented Dec 24, 2021 at 9:51
  • It's also 3 years old already...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Dec 24, 2021 at 10:02
  • @Cerbrus True. And yet, some people today are still unable to understand all of it.
    – E_net4
    Commented Dec 24, 2021 at 10:04
  • I only see 1 misguided attempt at answering this with a non-answer, since the last edit on this question. (Just to be clear, I'm not talking about this answer). I don't think this question needed more answers, or more clarification. It just needed that non-answer to be deleted. But that's just my opinion :-)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Dec 24, 2021 at 10:07
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    And I respect your opinion, @Cerbrus, even though I disagree. ;)
    – E_net4
    Commented Dec 24, 2021 at 10:42
-7

The code of conduct is not merely "over the top". It's Orwellian. It's awful. It's terrible.

Now, I personally have a record of calling out overly aggressive and condescending comments by high-rep users towards lower-rep ones; and I've often decried the violent and excessive down-voting which Stack Overflow is infamous for. HOWEVER - I would never dream of initiating procedures against such commenters which result in their suspension or expulsion, just because their rhetoric is blunt, sarcastic, abrasive, or un-nice.

Stack Overflow, despite being privately-owned, is de facto a public resource, a public forum. This code of conduct, and the enforcement thereof, is a violent sterilization of this space.

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    Orwellian is to make you so afraid of the system that you never dare to speak up. The exact opposite of what you are practicing here. 1984 wasn't about people using more polite wording, it was about taking away all means of critical thinking by re-shaping society (and language). That is not at all what this code of conduct suggests. And there is no freedom of speech in a place that is, in the end, owned by a private company.
    – GhostCat
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 18:28
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    @GhostCat I think your definition and einpoklum's aren't too far apart; there is an enforcement section of the new CoC, which suggests punishment for behavior that is highly subjective. It's entirely possible to become afraid of a system that implements such an arbitrary standard to the point where you do not dare speak up. It's a bit exaggerated, but I don't think it counts as the "exact opposite".
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 19:27
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    Know what else is "Orwellian"? Overusing terms like that to the point where they loose all meaning and impact. Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 19:28
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    @GhostCat: Ah, but it's not the exact opposite, it is rather [quite similar](It's not just that. We don't say "Phrase X", we rather say "Phrase Y". So, the sugar rations have not dropped, it's actually gone up! And people aren't derisive, they're actually all nice, except they don't know it yet. But they'll learn. They'll all learn; the ones that aren't erased, that is.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 19:49
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    To play Devil's Advocate - would you not be at least talked to by your superior, if not face disciplinary action (which would include suspension or expulsion) if you were blunt, sarcastic, abrasive or un-nice in discourse with your coworkers?
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 21:14
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    @GhostCat And there is no freedom of speech. To be clear there are two definitions of freedom or speech. There is the restriction on the state, and there is also a principle: allowing people to express what they think is important. Now I understand why organizations might restrict the way you say things, but I think they are wise to give people a way of saying most things. Preventing someone from expressing themselves in any way is a good way to make people very very angry.
    – Att Righ
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 2:05
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    @Makoto I think you could probably get away with being both blunt and un-nice to your colleagues provided you didn't actively try to be nasty and were acting with the best interests of the company at heart. I mean... people mightn't like you very much, and they might say a couple of nasty things to you or try to get you to take some bait; they will also likely return the favor. But seriously - what kind of person does it make you if you fire someone for saying things that are relevant and true? I suppose if you are managing people who start to hate you; you might have a problem.
    – Att Righ
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 2:44
  • @Makoto I guess I can think of one more caveat. If you do something wrong after being blunt all the time you'll find out about it pretty quickly (which can be a good thing) and people will likely stop helping you with things (unless you make a pretty good case that the company needs it).
    – Att Righ
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 2:52
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    @Makoto There are times when it's entirely appropriate to be blunt, sarcastic, abrasive, or un-nice to coworkers. It's usually not constructive as a general policy, but sometimes that cuts through a lot of the BS and gets to the heart of the matter. I personally value the ability to "be un-nice" in my coworkers. Now if they did it all the time, it'd be a different story...
    – user610217
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 11:37
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    @NathanTuggy I agree that censorship is a bad thing. But again: this is capitalism. When stackexchange.com goes down (as a company) and their servers go offline, our precious community gets censored for good. So when the people that own the infrastructure decide to put rules in place for people using the infrastructure, then that is their choice. And nobody here has a say in that. It is really nice that this company listens to us, and tries to come to consensus based solutions. But in the end, the sites on the SE network pay their salary (not mine, or your).
    – GhostCat
    Commented Aug 9, 2018 at 7:05
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    It's a shame I can only cast a single upvote on this one... it exactly highlights my thoughs. If someone forces me to be nice, it's not about "maintaining necessary niceness" - it's about truth - whether I can call stupid thing stupid or not. I already mostly opted out of SO when the first "forced niceness" wave struck a couple of years ago... I wanted to be helpful, but I never wanted to be forced to be nice to people who ain't nice to nobody - to people, who just greedily require help of others, while not giving anything in return.
    – user719662
    Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 12:46
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    As far as I'm aware, before the new code of conduct people have been banned or even perm-deleted for repeatedly violating the "be nice" policy, so there is nothing new, just a rewording of the policy. Please don't act as if this is brand new. That is disingenuous and overly dramatic Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 18:34
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    @MarkRotteveel: 1. The previous code was "be nice". So what you're describing - and about which I did not have information - was abuse without sanction. Now it's legitimized punishment. 2. If there is "nothing new", then let's not rewrite the not-new part.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 20:54
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    @MarkRotteveel you've just breached the new CoC by being rude, sarcastic and by name calling. "Please don't act as if this is brand new." is rude and borderline sarcastic, "That is disingenuous and overly dramatic" is pure PoV and unnecessary criticism that shames me by implying I'm disingenuous and overly dramatic - and shaming me doesn't help me improve... see what I did there?
    – user719662
    Commented Aug 11, 2018 at 11:05
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    @einpoklum if you think it never helps, I frankly know you're wrong - it seldom helps, but that doesn't mean it never helps. I don't have any problem with people calling my behaviour stupid. I'm not a special snowflake. I want to know when I'm stupid. We've had this conversation on EE.SO meta, with Andy Aka... and we both agreed that some people (including him and me) prefer the harsh and direct criticism coupled with useful advice instead of lack of advice. I don't want to call anything stupid. Honestly, I think I never did here, on SO. Still, I want to have the right to do that.
    – user719662
    Commented Aug 11, 2018 at 11:09

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