82

Three hours ago I popped into the site to check in. I was pinged about this post, about a deleted comment. I made the grave mistake of writing a light hearted answer to lift the mood.

The most time consuming and draining aspect is addressing meta. If we decline a flag or delete the comment, it can end up on meta.

When I post an answer, there's a 25% chance it will be downvoted (this is taken from my posts stats - many of the downvoted answers have been deleted). There's also a good chance it will be flooded with comments. Latest 33 in 90 mins

Shortly after being elected the welcoming blog happened and the goal posts on the site have been dragged far along from where they were when I was an infant mod (I was sworn in Mar 27th - blog posted 26th April). It's been a steep learning curve.

The mods don't have control over the changes in the site. We have special powers, but we have one voice, as does each person reading this. We are instructed what is expected of us as moderators and that's all we can do. We're doing our best.

I'm held accountable for my actions, and I'm glad for it. I try to stay on top of our flag queue, as it gets out of control quickly. I am also fallible. I get tired. I make mistakes. If I find myself making too many mistakes, I take a break.

Barraging some of my posts with dozens of comments and a flood of downvotes, doesn't actually help to effect change. It's just exhausting. What am I doing wrong?

We were elected by the community to handle difficult tasks and make the line calls. People are not always going to like our choices. Believe it or not, we're trying to improve the site, one flag at a time.

So I'm writing this to stimulate some discussion about how I can make my communication better on meta.

I have upvoted all the answer. They've all be helpful, so have the comments. I accepted this, as it is so simple and something that is easy to follow. That may sound strange to some people. As a literal thinker, simple step by step instructions work well for me. I'm hoping the community will see an improvement in my communication. My goal is to be helpful for our site, our community (old and new), otherwise there's no point being here.

Thank you

I want to thank everyone for their feedback. It has been helpful (answers and comments included). I'm hoping the community will see an improvement in my communication.

Please feel free to post an answer here or ping me if you have an issue with me. I'd welcome the discussion and am always hopeful that any rift or misunderstanding can be repaired.

My goal is to be helpful for our site, our community (old and new), otherwise there's no point being here. Thanks for bearing with me.

29
  • 12
    This comment thread: [Constructive responses redacted for maximum welcoming capability] :P Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 13:56
  • 8
    The irony is that all those downvoters on your lastest answer, if in your position, would do exactly the same thing, i.e. err on the side of deleting comments. If they feel so strongly, they should put themselves up in the next elections. Some empathy would not go amiss.
    – jpp
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 13:57
  • 62
    Hi :) The reason why I - and others I assume - downvoted your recent answer was the "erring on the site of deletion can be the wisest choice"-part of your (otherwise pretty good) poem. Meta is, always has been, and probably always will be a minefield, with very sensitive mines. Most people here dislike the general direction SO is headed in at the moment, and mass-deletion of comments is also not really "nice" for a lot of us.
    – Seth
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:01
  • 6
    @Seth, I think there's a hidden message / hint / idea (whatever you want to call it). If you spend a lot of time / effort writing comments, you're doing it wrong!
    – jpp
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:01
  • 45
    What a total an utter mess "the welcoming" is... Yvette this isn't your fault. Your trying your best, we (well at least I) appreciate that.
    – Liam
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:17
  • 13
    I don't thing anyone disagrees with "lets be nice" but working out whats nice, whats not nice, etc. is a nightmare. Not even to mention that this is a world wide forum. Manners/politeness often do not translate between cultures. I (for one) have just given up on the whole thing. It's a nonsense. I'll keep on doing my thing as I've always done it and leave SO (inc) to it's hand wringing.
    – Liam
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:26
  • 13
    How is it different than anything else on meta? You aren't being downvoted, your posts are. People are just disagreeing... I know I downvoted that answer. I wasn't downvoting you, I was downvoting for the reason I left in a comment on said answer. I am confused how better I am supposed to let know where I'm agreeing or disagreeing with something on meta now :/
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 15:04
  • 3
    @Yvette GOD DAMMIT! Here I was hoping it was the name-gender issue where I "outed" myself as a bearded giant who people confuse for a woman :p (I mean, it is that one, but just linked to that HIMYM video...I have to find a way to remove that show from the collective minds of humanity). In any case, I do see a lot of efforts to improve on your part and respect that immensely :) My own particular issue with the previous answer was really the inferrence that could be done between what you said and the kind of "bad question, but answered so won't be improved" situation I thought it could generate.
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 15:18
  • 7
    *slowly massages temples over the <sub> tag misuse*
    – canon
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 18:58
  • 2
    Re: "it was an aside :p": "In rhetoric, a parenthesis ... or parenthetical phrase is an explanatory or qualifying word, clause, or sentence inserted into a passage. The parenthesis could be left out and still form grammatically correct text. Parentheses are usually marked off by round or square brackets, dashes, or commas." Wikipedia: Parenthesis (rhetoric)
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 19:33
  • 3
    There's irregular, then there's misuse of formatting that causes old men to squint unnecessarily.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 19:36
  • 5
    Not the alignment. WHO WILL THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 0:05
  • 2
    While everyone has room for improvement, and framing can help, overall you probably just need a thick skin to be a mod :/. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 13:54
  • 7
    I downvoted your answer on that thread largely because of the "Comments are extremely difficult in this political climate, it's like we're all walking on egg shells." in the first paragraph. You are reinforcing the negative attitude of the OP instead of just pointing out that comment simply did not have enough value to be retained. I'd suggest being more factual and less banter/joking in your answers. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 20:38
  • 3
    While the answers others posted provide some valuable insights, I would just like to say that being a mod who gets more downvotes than others is not a bad thing, per se. I see it as a sign that you are more controversial than other mods, and that you look after minorities rather than the majority of users. We need people like that. Regardless, you were elected, and people knew who they were voting for. I for one would vote for you again any time. Kudos for making this post. It's good to know you're on the mod team. Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 20:13

10 Answers 10

29

I downvoted your answer on that thread largely because of the "Comments are extremely difficult in this political climate, it's like we're all walking on egg shells." in the first paragraph.

In my opinion, with this comment you are reinforcing the negative attitude of the OP on 'are we being censored and can we no longer comment or what' (my exaggerated impression of that question) instead of just pointing out that comment simply did not have enough value to be retained. I'd suggest being more factual and less banter/joking in your answers.

That last point about (not) joking: I get the impression that you try to soften your responses with humour/jokes, but if those jokes fall flat or even rub people the wrong way it will only serve to increase the negative impressions of your post (and hence downvotes). Sticking to the facts or an explanation will far more likely maintain a neutral outlook even if people disagree.

4
  • I have upvoted all the answer. They've all be helpful, so have the comments. I accepted this, as it is so simple and something that is easy to follow. That may sound strange to some people. As a literal thinker, simple step by step instructions work well for me. I'm hoping the community will see an improvement in my communication. My goal is to be helpful for our site, our community (old and new), otherwise there's no point being here.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 8:53
  • Which politics does that quote refer to? World/domestic politics or StackOverflow politics?
    – camden_kid
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 13:46
  • 3
    @camden_kid I would guess SO politics Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 14:10
  • 1
    @AxelRichter That is not at all what I'm saying, I'm specifically talking about the case of Yvette, who is a moderator and thus represents both the community and SE, and is - whether that is appropriate or not - held to a higher standard. I'm just remarking on what I observe from her posts, and providing guidance to how she may address it (and to be honest, with the current sentiments running wild in the meta sub-community, that might not even work). Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 10:15
130

You don't always have to answer. When you do, don't lay it on so thick.
In the first paragraph, you're emphasizing how insignificant the deleted comment is compared to the 16m questions. Don't do that. It's an unreasonable comparison, and only invites someone to respond.

Now, your "high chance to get downvoted" has everything to do with how you respond. Your opinions are often controversial. That does result in downvotes.

The point isn't that you're doing it wrong. People just disagree.

"Barraging some of my posts with dozens of comments and a flood of downvotes, doesn't actually help to effect change. It's just exhausting. What am I doing wrong?"

You're posting on meta and expect users not to pile in with opinions. The only thing wrong here, in my opinion, is what you expect users to do.

My suggestion?

Stick to facts. "I did X because Y". Don't try to convince people, and don't take it personally if someone downvotes you.
The poem is cute, but it's noise. I wouldn't be surprised if it were deleted, had a normal user posted it.

10
  • 8
    you make a good point. Expect it and not view it as a bad thing.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:06
  • 3
    and a point worth noting-as a mod,-we try to answer the questions that address the flags we handled personally.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:07
  • 7
    That's actually very good advice for everyone. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 19:10
  • 2
    While this is a good answer. I have an issue with the point in the middle: "The point isn't that you're doing it wrong. People just disagree." While disagreement doesn't automatically mean you're doing something wrong, such consistent and widespread disagreement suggests that your actions are at odds with the community's expectations, and as a community-driven site, StackOverflow has decided that the community consensus is (usually) what we try to abide by. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:26
  • 1
    @anaximander: I think Yvette is free to have her own interpretations. That doesn’t make her “wrong”.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:31
  • @Cerbrus I'm not saying she's wrong, per se; I'm just saying that on a site where so much is decided by community consensus, I'm not entirely comfortable with any advice that suggests to a moderator that they needn't be worried when large numbers of people voice disagreement, or that they needn't pay much attention when that happens. It may not be a guaranteed sign that there's an issue, but it is smoke, and I'd expect any mod seeing it to pause and check whether there's a fire (which is of course why Yvette asked this question, which I applaud). Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:38
  • 2
    @anaximander: I'm not saying they shouldn't be worried. I'm saying they shouldn't be surprised.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 9:00
  • 1
    @Anaximander, IMO, moderation is an exception to the rule. In the past I have flagged comments massively upvoted (by "the community") for deletion as "no longer required" (usually because they are belittling or use inappropriate metaphors, see here for examples). I wouldn't go as far as to say anti-community-consensus is correct, but neither is groupthink appropriate for moderation.
    – jpp
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 9:08
  • 4
    @jpp I agree that at times, moderation needs to stand against the tide rather than go with the flow, but if one particular moderator is consistently meeting opposition, I'd expect them to ask why; to just check they're still making the right calls and haven't drifted away from what we've collectively decided we want the site to be. There's a distinction between groupthink and consensus. I'm not saying to always obey community sentiment; I'm just saying to remain aware of it and not discard it out of hand. It's not the only metric as to whether a mod is doing a good job, but it is a metric. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 9:27
  • 2
    @anaximander The problem with that is it would be defining the community as those who stick around on meta. Personally I sometimes don't visit for weeks (if not months) because of the amount of bike-shedding that happens here. And although there are aspects about the welcoming-discussion that I don't like, the amount of vitriol and "end of the world"-response it invokes on meta seems really out of proportion. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 20:45
101

What am I doing wrong?

In the context of responding to Meta questions, not much as far as I am concerned.

The point is just that a regular users are sick and tired of the vagueness around the "welcoming" drama. What are we doing wrong? What is expected of us? To what problem is the approach taken by Stack Overflow a solution, and is it an appropriate one?

When you, with your moderator diamond next to your name, step in and try to answer that, even when merely explaining it from a personal viewpoint, you will be downvoted by the many who are totally and utterly done with this nonsense and the uncertainties surrounding it. Don't take that personally.

We get it, you have your instructions. We just want to know where we stand and what we can do, while not having to fear all our actions (voting, flagging, commenting) are in vain.

This discussion was triggered by a comment being deleted

No, it was triggered by seeing many comments disappear without ever getting feedback why.

6
  • 30
    I'd add that Yvette is known for her open support of whatever the welcoming drama is about (from before the welcoming drama even started), so many people will see her response as support of what they're sick and tired about. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:00
  • 11
    @AndrasDeak I never liked the blog. That's the irony. ;) CodeC thanks a good answer, it helps clarify some issues.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:01
  • 6
    @Yvette I've never seen you endorse it, I believe, and I didn't mean to imply that (I've already edited my comment to clarify a bit). But you're known to stand up for minorities and hostility towards them, which the welcoming drama tries to fix (albeit in the worst ways possible^[citation needed]). I'm pretty sure this weighs in strongly with how people react to your responses in [welcoming]. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:02
  • 6
    @AndrasDeak yes, true. I also think that our community needs support that has been lacking. But you make a valid point.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:04
  • 2
    @AndrasDeak Actually Yvette, even if she initially supported the post has clearly shown support for the established contributors and site quality and against the "over-welcoming-ness" in meta posts such as this one: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/371015/2036035
    – Krupip
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 14:36
  • CodeCaster I want to apologise if I came across as frivolous or mocking. That wasn't my intention. It was not good judgement to post the poem there, but it certainly wasn't meant as malicious. I can see how it could come across as all wrong. this answer helped me to understand how it came across.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 13:09
70

Keep in mind that you're an elected representative of this community, just as much as you're a representative of SO as a company. You have a duty to those that elected you to value their interests, not just the company. (They have their employees to do that.)

When you go around interacting with people here on meta from the perspective of fighting against this community to protect SO's interests, rather than going around trying to protect this community's interests that...isn't going to be well received by the community.

You're saying not to shoot the messenger, but the voice of SO as a company, the people that are here to express their opinions and views, are the community managers, and other employees of the company. If you don't want to get caught up in the fact that the company is putting forth a lot of policies that large portions of the community are strongly disagreeing with, then leave that job to them. To this you can look to some of your peers who simply aren't injecting themselves into many of these discussions.

13
  • 1
    "many of these discussions." > "any of these discussions." That seems a lot less stressful.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:33
  • 2
    @Cerbrus Sometimes it's unavoidable, for example, the example of this question. Saying something in that question is likely important, as one of her moderation actions was questioned. But using that post as a platform to talk about the greater views and changes of the company, rather than keeping it as much about the specifics of that post, certainly isn't necessary.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:38
  • 1
    Agreed, Servy. Like I said in my answer: Stick to the facts.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:40
  • 9
    that's interesting. Stop defending the company. Yes I do that. Point taken.thanks
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 15:01
  • 2
    I hadn't thought of this at all but it's a good point. I'm sure Yvette means well (I really am) but, indeed, she is not (or should not be) a messenger of SE. Perhaps that's the problem. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 16:05
  • 23
    @YvetteColomb I'm not saying you can't, I'm more saying that, if you choose to do so, you're not just the messenger anymore. You're making the decision yourself, to advocate for these policies, and so the consequences of doing so are yours to bear. You're not "just the messenger", and someone should should be immune form the consequences of users not agreeing with the policies you're advocating, because you're actually advocating them personally. Obviously you, just like any other member of the community, are allowed to advocate for policy changes.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 16:36
  • 1
    @Servy yes it's food for thought. Clearly I've been at odds. There were obvious improvements I could and did make.. But I hit a wall. I know I sound thick - but I am on some things, very literal. So it takes me time to get the hang of things in a social sense. But once I work out what's expected of me it will be ok. Does that make sense? So you're saying I should be more in tune with what people want and not so worried about the company's policies?
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 16:39
  • 5
    @YvetteColomb I'm saying you have two choices here. You can choose to advocate for these policies personally, because you personally believe in them, and if you make that choice, you should be prepared for the feedback that those opinions are going to evoke in others (just as anyone is who advocates a position on meta), or, if you so choose, you can not personally advocate for the changes, and leave it to those who are responsible for conveying the companies policies to convey the company's policies. Both options are acceptable.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 16:44
  • @Servy ah yes that makes sense. Some things SE does I agree with some I don't. I have advocated for the community to have more effective tools in handling poor content. That's important. I also don't like how the community has become increasingly censured / given negative feedback. We need support to keep going.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 16:46
  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit yes I think that's part of the problem. That and poor social skills. :)
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 16:47
  • 1
    For what it's worth I didn't actually see anything wrong with your answer, nor any significant backlash against it (other than some downvotes which, as you know, are not personal). But I didn't look very closely :) Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 17:30
  • 2
    @Servy It's funny when you're banging your head on a brick wall to get your point across and you realise that's what the other person has been doing all along. sounds of pennies dropping
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 19:28
  • 3
    The problem with this, is it that it seems to define the community as those who stick around on meta. That is too limited. Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 20:47
41

Please try to only delete comments when there's a clear reason for deletion.

Personally, I'd try something like the following:

  • Rude/abusive/spam -> remove
  • Clearly off-topic discussion -> remove
  • Flagged no longer needed (or whatever that's called nowadays) and has clearly been acted upon (e.g. typo fixed, answer improved) -> remove

Anything else should stay by default, unless there's a really good reason to remove it. Like CodeCaster, I've seen other threads where comments have been removed because they have been read so served their purpose. This is NOT a reason to remove comments in my opinion: if they have been read, but not acted upon, requests for clarification/improvement still have a clear purpose: they note deficiencies.

Of course, something as complex as comment moderation can't be captured this simply, but not removing on-topic comments that haven't been acted upon is very important to me.

15
  • 12
    Regarding that last bullet: Better mod tooling (specifically suggestion #2) would be incredibly helpful. The lack of context in the flag queue is a huge problem.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:27
  • 15
    One of the bit points in this regard is that mods are constantly saying, "comments are ephemeral" as a justification for deleting comments. And while true, that doesn't make it a justification for deleting any comment without any other reason. Yes, comments are designed to be temporary in the sense that the reason you post a comment is to get the author of the post to improve said post, and that the comment should be deleted as soon as said improvement happens. When everything is working right, they should be deleted. But they shouldn't be deleted before said improvement has been made.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:35
  • 22
    The fact that comments are designed to be deleted once they have served their purpose, isn't a justification for deleting comments that have not yet served their purpose, as Erik has brought up rather well.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 14:35
  • 3
    I've upvoted this (or whatever that's called nowadays)
    – rene
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 15:21
  • @Erik: "This is NOT a reason to remove comments in my opinion: if they have been read, but not acted upon, requests for clarification/improvement still have a clear purpose: they note deficiencies." So what you're saying is that, if someone comments on my answer, notes a "deficiency" that isn't actually a problem, and I choose to ignore it, I have to live with this tumor stuck to my answer in perpetuity? Or do I have to take time out to explain to someone why the "deficiency" isn't a deficiency before their comment can be removed? Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 16:48
  • 2
    @Nicol that last one. You can't expect mods to know if a problem is real, and if it would be a real problem, it shouldn't be removed
    – Erik A
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 16:56
  • 7
    @NicolBolas Why should someone who posts a problematic answer have the right to have every comment pointing out those problems removed? Just as you're allowed to post your own answer explaining what you think the solution is, and it won't be deleted just because others think it's wrong or bad, others are allowed to provide feedback on it and indicate ways in which they think it's problematic. You're each allowed to state your case, and readers are then able to decide what to do given each sides' information.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 16:58
  • @Servy: Why should someone who posts a non-problematic answer have to defend it constantly? Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 17:04
  • 7
    @NicolBolas You don't. If you feel that your answer stands on its own merits, you don't need to respond at all. You just don't have the ability to unilaterally silence every one else on the topic. Whether you think it's worth either editing your answer or responding to the comment is worthwhile, to further explain why your answer is right, is up to you. And keep in mind that moderators simply can't (not won't, or shouldn't, but can't) be the judge of who's technically correct in every single disagreement on the site. They have neither the manpower nor the expertise to do so.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 17:07
  • 1
    @Servy: If I ask a question and someone posts a bad answer to it, I can just downvote and move on. I don't have to explain why or justify it. If I post an answer and someone makes a stupid comment, how do I do the equivalent? Also, let's not forget the old saying about arguing with fools; even if you're right, it's hard for people to tell which is the fool. Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 17:08
  • @NicolBolas If you feel that the answer stands on its own merits, and already adequately covers the issues raised in the comments, then you do nothing. If not, then it's a sign that your answer doesn't adequately cover a relevant issue (even if the correct explanation of that issue isn't what the commentor thinks it is) and you should edit your answer, just not in the way the commentor expected.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 17:12
  • 1
    @Servy: "If you feel that the answer stands on its own merits, and already adequately covers the issues raised in the comments, then you do nothing." And thus leave misinformation forever attached to my answer. Why is this a good thing? Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 17:14
  • 10
    @NicolBolas Because the alternative is allowing people to post misinformation in answers and delete all feedback indicating how it's problematic. If it were actually possible to determine if the comment were correct or not, then sure, we could just delete all misinformation and leave up all useful information. That can't be done.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 17:17
  • @Andy Since we're talking about comments, how did the discussion regarding your bot resolve? Were you allowed to run it from your account, a sock puppet, or is it dead for now? Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 14:42
  • 1
    @LordFarquaad meta.stackoverflow.com/a/356509/189134 I have not updated the model to support the new "Relevant" flag yet. I also haven't been running it as consistently as I did previously. This is due to several factors but mostly because until recently we couldn't see who flagged a comment and it felt like a conflict of interest if I went in an validated a flag, even though I didn't know if my system had cast it.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 14:56
31

I can give a reason why I downvoted your poem. Because it was a poem. There was a serious question about someone wanting a answer/motivation for the deletion and what stood as answer was a poem from a moderator.

Why was my comment deleted? A common thought.
One that is often asked and answered. One we ought
to remember this one fact:
Had the comment served it's purpose as a keen didact?

So don't mourn the loss of your comments, they are ephemeral (yes we sigh).
It doesn't mean you've done anything wrong,
just that they have passed their usefulness and it's time to say goodbye.

poetry courtesy of bet wagered with Jon Clements

It came over for me as inappropriate and unprofessional, a bit like a jester running around someone singing an answer in a spottish tone.

That is the image I had in my mind. And that caused me to downvote, because for me it came over as if you didn't take the user serious enough to give a normal answer and ridiculed the user for asking such a question. This may not have been your intention, but that is how it appeared to me.

14
  • 12
    FWIW, when Yvette first posted that poem, I told her pretty much the same thing in private. So you have a different mod who agrees with your opinion, and that says a lot.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 4:30
  • 1
    that's quite an insightful explanation. I've seen other answers that looked like voted negatively on the grounds of taking the discussed issue lighter than it deserves. I think I don't vote for this reason myself but I find it fair when others do
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 6:34
  • 6
    @gnat I used to own a few fora back in the day with thriving communities, and the worst one can do is having a attitude like: Look at all the work I do, I deserve respect and look at the big picture, what I did is no big deal. For the affected user it is a big deal. Being humble, reasonable and firm would be the best way to approach it. You don't need to agree with the user always, you can be at opposite sites, but always listen, acknowledge you understand the other and realize you're a servant serving out of love for the community. My down vote was more meant as a signal, not OK! Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 8:37
  • 1
    So it's a bit like responding to a serious question with an animated gif? Except this one is upvoted. So it's ok to appear to be mocking people, it depends on who is being mocked and who is doing the mocking?
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 10:14
  • 9
    @YvetteColomb Order of events is also important on how you present your point. Your post had just the poem. Not an introductory text explaining the deletion in "normal voice" leading up to the tongue in cheek poem. If you had posted a serious answer first, then introduced the poem it would have been received more favorably. Humor is all about timing, presentation and introductions. Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 10:19
  • 2
    @Tschallacka and also it's usually funnier for the people it's not being directed at. I intended to make a light hearted response. The intent wasn't to ridicule the OP. I can now see how it could be taken that way. Your intent was clear. And the gif is ridiculing. However, as evidenced by the upvotes, it's clearly acceptable to people. So it's me that either has to like it or lump it. Constructive criticism I can cope with, ridicule I cannot. This was the only answer I downvoted.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 10:22
  • 1
    For the record. I don't disagree with what you have said. The gif is ridiculing.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 10:30
  • 1
    @YvetteColomb I see where you're coming from. The gif was meant to illustrate the image I had in mind. I moved it to a link. It was not my intention to ridicule you with that image. Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 10:58
  • 1
    @YvetteColomb it's not quite straightforward really. I wrote I saw such answers scored negatively, but I also saw when these were scored positively. For myself I just dropped using this criteria to predict the score (your answer you ask about here is a good example, at first I thought it will eventually get positive score) and instead use it only to explain what I observe after the fact
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 11:30
  • 3
    lol, still combative...
    – canon
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 15:03
  • 1
    @canon I don't need to roll over and play dead. I'm allowed to have my opinions and say if something has upset me. Every individual on this site is allowed to voice their opinion. If mine doesn't agree with someone elses, to dismiss it as "combative" is a pejorative take on what I have to say and an unnecessary slight.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 7:58
  • 2
    I want to thank you for this post. As I honestly didn't understand how the OP of the other question may have felt until you posted this. It has helped. I reversed my downvote and gave you an upvote. Also seeing how you didn't have mal-intent and neither did I, it's a wake up call of how things can be misinterpreted and also whats just not appropriate (especially for a mod). Sorry to leave so many comments. It's been a hectic few days and I've been thinking it over.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 13:11
  • 1
    I have a mild form of autism, so I know from experience that the path to becoming "socially acceptable" can be hard with many walls to crash into. Keep growing, keep learning. It's okay to make mistakes as long as you learn. Good on you for seeking to better yourself @YvetteColomb Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 13:26
  • 6
    @YvetteColomb It sucks to be mocked in the process of being reprimanded or, worse, while asking for help. The fact that you launched this entire spectacle to combat criticism over your behavior is just ridiculous. I think you knew what you did wrong (edit history?) and you're just going through the motions in a thinly veiled attempt to validate your actions. I find it all very disingenuous. Still, that's just my take. Maybe I expect too much out of a moderator.
    – canon
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 14:36
16

I think you're getting the short end of the stick here because you're:

  • Very visible (people on meta know you and know your name)
  • Very polarizing (you've had posts people really disagreed with before)
  • Posting at a time where people are generally weary and negative towards staff and mods

None of those are really your fault, I think.

The "shoot the messenger" thing is something that you have to come to grips with. With that diamond next to your name, people will ascribe officiality to what you post, and the general discontent against staff and moderators will manifest on your posts, too.

1
  • Thanks Magisch (happy cactus). Yes, that diamond changes the dynamics.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 8:59
13

I think you're getting a lot more attention/flak than other moderators because you're a highly polarizing figure, as made evident by a few of your earlier posts and comments before you became a moderator, and a handful afterwards.

It feels to me like issues which crop up which involve you on Meta have a dual problem - you're both the catalyst and the solution, and in my mind, an effective moderator cannot see themselves in both positions at the same time. I get it; people hate to see their comments deleted or for whatever reason dislike poetry, but I would recommend following this advice from here on out.

...As it persisted, if the other mods were happy with my actions and attitude, I'd start ignoring the posts. There becomes a point, when trying to reach an agreement becomes too difficult, and it's better to walk away and focus on flags.

Haters gonna hate.

3
  • 1
    True words. That's why I'm attempting to make peace with the community and show true effort. Can you elaborate on this point "you're both the catalyst and the solution"? Also I do understand the point of being snug in the mod den and not worrying about meta, but that's not solving the heart of the issue. I want a working and productive relationship with the community. So people can feel I'm reliable and someone they can come to if they need.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 19:33
  • 6
    Sure - you're the person that may handle a mod flag and come to Meta to defend it in response of a Meta post about it. However (and this is what I've simply observed since you took the post), there is a "because it's you" attitude towards flags you take action on and posts you author. People/denizens are well within their right to disagree, but there are some people you may not be able to reach because of that mental stigma. I'd recommend taking a page out of Martijn's book on this one, since it feels like its Meta activity fell off a cliff after he was elected.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 19:35
  • thanks for the clarification and the answer. I'm absorbing everything. Time also helps stigmas (if the cause of the stigma is removed).
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 19:38
6

Here's my take on things: in your position as a moderator, no matter how eloquently you communicate your rationale for an action you took, you're likely to get downvotes if people disagree with the action. When posting about an action that you took, you aren't just "the messenger". It may not have anything to do with the way you're expressing yourself - at the end of the day, what you're writing about is something you did that may have been unpopular, and people are likely using their votes on Meta to signal that feedback.

And I'd consider this - this is just one person's perspective, but I feel like I see posts where you've taken an action that I'd characterize as not necessarily consistent with the way the community is used to other mods behaving, noticeably more often than I do with other specific moderators. Now, that doesn't mean that the actions are necessarily wrong - but when people become accustomed to certain assumptions about how the moderators act, broadly, and then those assumptions start to have exceptions, it can breed resentment -- even if the action you took isn't controversial on its face, people just don't like being hit with moderator action that they feel that they couldn't have anticipated.

Not to overstep the scope of this question, but since you're seeking advice of sorts here, my personal suggestion to you would be to spend a bit more time talking to other moderators about some of the actions you've taken that haven't been received the way you expected. Ask how they would have handled them, and explain why you took the actions that you chose - maybe you'll learn from them, maybe they'll learn from you. If you believe that you're bringing a better or more nuanced way of looking at things that other moderators are applying, then advocate for them to adopt the same mindset. Because the more consistency with which the rules are applied, the less likely you are to be hit with these surprise waves of backlash on Meta.

6
  • 8
    You can't rule out Yvette was elected by those users that felt a different take on moderation was needed. She didn't pop-up out of nowhere, users kind of knew her reputation. Suggesting that she needs to blend in with the rest might relief the friction but does a disservice to those who elected her to expect something would change. Things do change now with a gentle push and that is met with reluctance to change. If anything, it might need need more push, not less.
    – rene
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 14:09
  • 3
    I'm not necessarily suggesting that she needs to learn how the others moderate and just act like them - that's why I emphasized that "maybe you'll learn from them, maybe they'll learn from you". But if she brings a new take on moderation only by solely moderating differently than the rest, and doesn't make an effort to pull others along to her way of thinking, she'll always stand out. But I appreciate the critique, and I made a small edit to clarify my intent.
    – Sam Hanley
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 14:27
  • 5
    @rene I think you might be overestimating the amount of research that the average voter does in mod elections.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 14:49
  • 1
    And to be clear - I personally voted for Yvette in the last election, and I do think that the moderation on Stack Overflow could use a new direction, broadly speaking. I just feel concerned that there may be approaches that better socialize a new moderation perspective and work towards normalizing it, rather than having it stand out as an anomaly that may frustrate users.
    – Sam Hanley
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 14:53
  • 1
    @Servy I know ... I'll count on that when the time is right ...
    – rene
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 14:58
  • 1
    @SamHanley fair enough. The edits are appreciated.
    – rene
    Commented Aug 2, 2018 at 15:00
-3

I'm going to answer because I haven't seen anyone put this and I keep running into it on meta:

People on meta still downvote to say "I don't agree with this post"

It's not like the main SO where a downvote means something is wrong, you need to re-format this post, its low-quality, or anything like that - it just says I don't agree with the message.....the emotional or at least rational "what did I do wrong?" response we see in even a seasoned member/moderator does kinda re-enforce the "we should look at our voting policies over comments" but I digress.


What am I doing wrong?

First, I actually have agreed with many things that Yvette has said during this whole welcoming business because I, like many, am afraid that this focus on the negative will turn users (answers) away - I know it already has with me - due to this focus on comments instead of other areas in need and a lot of Yvette post seem to try and convey that.

So you have one post, one of many and a meta post, which initially had points I disagreed with and downvote is an appropriate way of saying "I disagree". The update changed the perspective of the post and so downvote gone but I still didn't really agree with the idea of posting it as a joke so no upvote.

a comment being deleted

This is the odd part to me, the current attitude and fear over comments - makes it so I comment less. There have been many "downvoters please comment" (I'm picking the nicer way it is said, not the common one) that I've had to ignore. With other posts where I would have given information on improving the post to keep it from being put on hold and instead just downvote and/or flag to avoid the negativity or repercussions of posting a comment.

And that's what happened here, I did not comment because I hold back more and more with comments on SO. I catch myself sometimes and remind myself its not about SE (company) its about helping people (to me) and make myself do it - I did not here. If I did I would have simply said, I don't agree with the tone of this post but the decision was fine.

I hope you stay the course as I, for one am happy with your efforts as moderator.

You were elected at a difficult time for SO, but to quote one of my favorite authors: "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

10
  • 3
  • yes, and I'm sure people (at least many of the people involved here and certainly a mod) know this but I'm talking about how it can still feel like "I disagree" is a negative just because of how people perceive downvotes. I disagree (downvote) can simply mean "I don't agree" and it can be hard to remember that @Makoto Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 16:47
  • 2
    @pnuts: I'm sorry, I didn't realize that "perceived usefulness" was that much different from agreement. If I don't think a discussion is useful, I'm tacitly disagreeing with it. If I don't think a support question is warranted, I'm tacitly disagreeing with the request. If I don't think a response to either of those is particularly useful, I'm tacitly disagreeing with it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 16:48
  • ...cont: Note, I still see people asking for comments due to downvotes fairly regularly who do not seem to understand that fact which requires searching meta or actually reading the tour. In this case though I just feel like this post is a similar type of question from a mod (who as an elected position wants and deserves feedback) and my answer is "cause I disagreed". Which I'll give cause that could have been the one & only reason others downvoted (i.e. not personal, just ehh...I didn't agree with this one) Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 16:53
  • I might just delete this soon anyway as I have had a fairly negative view of SO in recent months and that might have too much influence in my view of moderators/staff and anything even dealing with the "welcome wagon" to really post anything objective Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 16:56
  • 3
    I'm a mod and I upvoted this answer.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 18:13
  • 2
    @pnuts The help center is descriptive, not prescriptive. It's also just...not very good in its description. It's not telling people that they should be voting based on their agreement with a feature request, it's saying that many people on the site do that. And it's wrong to say that it only applies to feature requests, it tends to apply to any post putting forth a proposal. Tags have nothing to do with it.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 18:55
  • 2
    @pnuts Yeah, and clearly people use their votes to reflect their opinions of proposals regardless of how their tagged. That makes it a poor description of how people vote. If it accurately described how people vote, it would be a good description (or at least a better one).
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 19:08
  • 1
    @pnuts Lots of people feel that it's desirable for people to be able to express their opinion on a proposal by voting, rather than requiring everyone to post an answer or comment just to say whether they support it or not. Much less noise that way. If you think a given proposal is useful, you're free to vote accordingly, just like everyone else does. But regardless, that you wish people voted differently doesn't mean someone describing how people do vote is wrong.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 19:18
  • 4
    @pnuts Again, it's not a statement on how people are required to vote. It's a statement trying to inform people not familiar with meta how other's do vote. As mentioned before, it's descriptive, not prescriptive. And it does a bad job of it, because it doesn't accurately describe how people actually vote.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 3, 2018 at 19:22

You must log in to answer this question.