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I reported this answer as spam, since it contains affiliate links and does not really answer the question- the flag was immediately declined.

Now the user posted the same answer on three different questions: [1] [2] [3] (some of them are already removed).

Is this answer not spam? How such cases should be handled?

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  • 24
    @rene Yep, deleted the answer and sending the user a warning. Jul 28, 2018 at 19:50
  • 3
    @pnuts it does here: meta.stackexchange.com/a/58035/158100
    – rene
    Jul 28, 2018 at 19:55
  • 4
    @pnuts While the answer that rene linked, which more clearly defines spam, is linked from that help page, the help page should be updated to have the distilled version of the criteria, similar to what's used in the flag dialog.
    – Makyen Mod
    Jul 28, 2018 at 20:03
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    I have reached that answer by clicking on a link that sits on that page you linked to. That is official enough for me.
    – rene
    Jul 28, 2018 at 20:03
  • 2
    As I've argued before: Keep in mind that finding spam does not somehow force you to use a spam flag (aka. nuke), despite its name. The further we move from "Make $$$ fast" and friends posted by a clear spam account, the more likely it gets that a detailed custom flag will lead to the most appropriate resolution of the problem.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Jul 29, 2018 at 9:50
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    @BaummitAugen Finding spam does not force me to anything and I'm slowly going to conclusion, that I should simply ignore undesirable answers/question, downvote at best. I already had mixed feelings about how some of my flags were handled. If I should not mark spam as spam, then there is clearly something wrong with the process...
    – rob006
    Jul 29, 2018 at 11:36
  • 2
    "If I should not mark spam as spam, then there is clearly something wrong with the process..." There's something wrong with the documentation IMO, but then again, it's not like severe punishment is handed out for declined flags anyway, so learning is cheap. Unless you somehow take declines as a personal insult I don't really see issue. "I already had mixed feelings about how some of my flags were handled." What is so bad about the result here? The offending links are gone, the user was warned and has a mark on their profile. What more do you want?
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Jul 29, 2018 at 11:44
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    @BaummitAugen I don't expect anything more except not repeating the same situation in the future. And I disagree about cheap learning - this decline gives me flag-ban. It is quite demotivating when after flagging 3 quite obvious garbage-answers (1 spam, 2 NAA) you get 3 declines and flag-ban (especial if 2 of them are already removed, so I was right in some way...). I need to go to meta to explain the situation and get some "justice", and spammer seem to not get any real penalty. It gives me an impression that SO is more friendly to spammers than flaggers...
    – rob006
    Jul 29, 2018 at 19:45
  • 3
    Not spam flag IMO, it's an edit and a comment to the author. It doesn't need a red flag unless the author decides to roll back that edit and if they do, you custom mod flag it, don't red flag it. Let the mod then handle the issue. They aren't just throwing a link at the site from an unregistered account, they are contributing to the site. Not everything needs a flag, sometimes all it takes is a bit of educating.
    – Bugs
    Jul 30, 2018 at 11:33
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    @rene "it does here", do note that the lacks disclosure was introduce in revision 53, That lacks disclosure is an immediate red flag according to me is not correct. We would have to spam nuke tons of answer from top contributors. I think it's very counter productive to red flag eg an answer pointing to github page (that is clearly OP's page since same name in profile), after all we all have the possibility to edit the post also and add a "My". Maybe we could use some "common sense"?, do I really need to red flag, is an edit enough, is this clear/simple spam or maybe a custom flag? Jul 30, 2018 at 11:34
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    @Bugs FAQ clearly states that spam should not be edited and it was obvious spam for me. Also note that flag does not report user but its post - why should it matter who is the author of spammy answer?
    – rob006
    Jul 30, 2018 at 11:54
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    @Bugs Looks like reporting spam requires much more effort than posting it...
    – rob006
    Jul 30, 2018 at 12:03
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    Moderating content does take much more effort @rob006. It's why we have people dedicated to the cause.
    – Bugs
    Jul 30, 2018 at 12:05
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    @Bugs AFAIK 6 users with 15 rep has that power - 6 spam flag is enough to nuke answer and its author.
    – rob006
    Jul 30, 2018 at 12:33
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    I think rob006 feels that his effort (marking things that are spam as spam) isn't being treated with the respect it deserves. It is true that on SO, "citizen moderation" is treated as if SO is doing a favour to you to permit you to moderate. Part of this reason is because the gamification of citizen moderation in general means that people mass-moderate poorly in order to get badges; SO responded by "punishing" people who moderate incorrectly (with things like temporary flag-bans) as a mechanism to train people to moderate correctly. But it isn't really for everyone. Jul 30, 2018 at 18:07

1 Answer 1

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I handled your spam flag there. It was my mistake that I declined your flag. Let me start off by mentioning that affiliate links are considered spammish on Stack Overflow:

Your affiliate ID does nothing to enhance an answer. It serves only to provide you with income. You're not the one incurring a cost by hosting content on Stack Overflow, so you're not the one who deserves to be paid. We're all volunteering our time and knowledge here for free. Allowing affiliate links would give the wrong kind of encouragement for people to post here.

This should clear up a lot of confusion over whether it is considered spammish or not (but do read the rest of the post before using the red spam flag on it). Now coming to the posts at hand:

the user posted the same answer on three different questions.

This is against the policy of Stack Exchange. It is not acceptable to post the same answer to multiple questions. Fortunately, the system already raises an automatic flag, in those cases, which is how I discovered them. The flag queue was a bit low, which is why I managed to handle them early on. I did not see any of your/others NAA flags, as they are hidden until 1 hr, which is probably why your NAA flags were marked helpful (but not the spam flag).

To clear things off the table again, posting the same answer to multiple questions isn't spam unless they are deliberately trying to be promotional (which falls under the overt-self promotion bracket).

I reported this answer as spam, since it contains affiliate links

This is the part which I actually missed. I saw the spam flag 3~4 seconds after it was raised (perhaps I should delay my flag handling). I did a search of all the posts containing a URL to that domain. The domain seemed quite famous. I did hover over the link and see a index.html and a long code, but I didn't guess that it was an affiliate code. I saw the post itself. It was posted by an established user of the site. They did have several other contributions and I could not find any links form the profile which showed that the user was affiliated with that site. Furthermore, they clearly explained the way to use the library and did not just leave a link to it. All these are indicative of a clean answer and not spam. So I declined it. (Now 1 decline doesn't result in a flag ban. If you have lots of declines that would affect)

After the decline, the meta was posted immediately. I was informed in the comments that the links contained referral codes, where I realized my mistake. I apologized for the screw up, immediately disputed your flag (disputed flags don't count against you) and warned the user. The user also immediately responded that they did not know about the rule and they edited out the referral links from the answer.

Now here is where the story becomes sad ... Thanks to the meta effect, the answer kept on receiving spam flags long after the post was edited to remove the referral links. The post was downvoted, despite being a proper answer to the question.

There's something called as the Hanlon's Razor, which states, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity". The poster there was naïve and was not aware of the rules. Once educated, they immediately apologized and rectified it. We are now (continuously) punishing a user, with spam flags, even though they have corrected themselves.

The comments made me think about the situation. The answer was quite valid, and would probably have helped someone in the future. The only issue which it had was that it contained affiliate links. The user was already an established user of the site and would certainly have been receptive to feedback. Surely educating them would have been a better option.

Nuking useful posts is almost never a good thing. The spam flag has other negative connotations as well, once spam nuked, the post is locked and no one can edit it (apart form diamond moderators), the user gets a penalty of 100 rep, their IPs are fed to the spam ram, they probably could get an answer ban, and also posting limits. That's a clear turn off for any user who wants to contribute to the site.

If it was a new (unregistered) user, doing this, then I'd not be thinking twice about any of these and would have just nuked the post, them and every trace of what they left on the site. But here it was a user who has provided lots of useful answers to the site. Sending them off because of an issue, which could have been solved in other ways doesn't quite paint a good picture about our community as a whole.

So in hindsight, and probably I'm making a controversial statement but, if you see that a user has posted a valid answer to the question, and the only fault of theirs is that they are using affiliate links, please please do use the other flag and explain it to us. We will temporarily delete the answer and send the user a warning. If they decide to remove the links, then it's good for us and for the programmer community, and we can undelete it. If they don't, then the answer remains deleted and the next time they post a similar answer, it would get escalated to suspensions and finally lead to a deletion of their account.

I'm not asking you to "not mark spam as spam", and I clearly know that we should not be editing spam, but just that take a small bit of consideration about the other factors involved. If there is some value which you can extract out of the post, then perhaps the 6-flag-100-rep-spam-nuke isn't a better option than using the custom flag.

Again this is just my opinion as a community member like you, but if you wish to continue using the spam flag on those posts, then feel free to. As a moderator, I'm obliged to mark them helpful.

I'm sorry for declining the flags, and I'm ready to don the paper bag.

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    But... there is not any value to extract out of the post, at least not on the question where you left it up. That question does not ask how to install composer, the question shows that composer is installed already. Nor does the question ask about that particular host. The answer only says how to install composer on that particular host, nothing more. It feels like spam even with the affiliate link removed, and it definitely does not even try to answer the question. I can appreciate avoiding the spam flag for established users, but it isn't a useful post worth keeping.
    – user743382
    Jul 31, 2018 at 4:38
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    @hvd, I can't judge the technicalities behind that, I looked at the answer and it seemed good to me, thank you for informing me that it's a wrong answer (which warrants both downvoting and 20k delete voting). I was speaking in general about such posts. If we can extract something useful, let us. Jul 31, 2018 at 4:42
  • Instead of advising to not flag as spam, you could advise to not link to such a post on Meta. Like that, it will only get 1 (or 2) flags max.
    – Cœur
    Jul 31, 2018 at 6:42
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    @Cœur Yeah, that's another issue of meta which I'm slightly discomfortable with. Linking to posts on meta have had real bad effects (I've seen a post go from -2 to -40 in a matter of hours). However, that shouldn't distract you from the fact that custom flagging such posts instead of spam is certainly a better option. Adding 1 or 2 flags isn't the problem, it's the thought "we need to nuke this with spam flags" which I'm more concerned about. Jul 31, 2018 at 6:46
  • @BhargavRao If you no longer feel the downvotes are wrong, please consider deleting your comment on that answer apologising for them and taking responsibility for it. That aside, sure, in general, do check if there's content worth keeping, and I can see the logic in preferring risking accidentally giving a malicious user a second chance over risking turning a well-meaning useful poster away from the site: the former can be rectified as soon as the user messes up again, the latter is likely permanent.
    – user743382
    Jul 31, 2018 at 8:20
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    @hvd, I still feel that 6 downvotes (and the 'n' number of spam flags) on that post wouldn't have happened if not for the meta, which is why I've left that comment. And thank you for understanding my logic that it's better to salvage content than to nuke mercilessly. :) Jul 31, 2018 at 8:33
  • The point is that I don't believe that these answers have value in the context of question where they were posted. They don't answer the question and I have no doubt what motives were behind posting them. Removing affiliation part from URL only changes spam to NAA, thats why I did not try fix the answer by editing, because there was nothing to save here.
    – rob006
    Jul 31, 2018 at 8:35
  • I'm also not a fan of double standards (especially if we have lower expectations for experienced users than for newbies), but if experienced user should not be nuked by spam flag, can't we sacrifice some automation and require mod confirmation before applying spam penalty from accepted spam flag on user with 500+ rep? At least for flaggers is should be simpler than "sometimes you should not mark spam as spam, because there is hidden automated penalty behind this flag" guidance.
    – rob006
    Jul 31, 2018 at 8:39
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    @rob006, Let's go one by one, firstly without the links the post is not a NAA. The rules for NAA are pretty well formed and widely accepted by the community. Removing the links to the URL wouldn't have changed them to NAA. If you think that it was a NAA, then you need to read a bit about NAAs and when actually you need to flag them. "They don't answer the question" is not a valid argument for flagging, it's an argument for downvoting, and commenting. Jul 31, 2018 at 8:56
  • Now for the next comment, I did speak about the double standards in spam flagging just a few days back. I would be more than happy if you custom flag new users as well, the chances that they don't know about the site is more than those of the established ones. I mentioned about unregistered users because 90% of the actual spam comes from unregistered users. I don't have any biases towards new users/established users. Jul 31, 2018 at 8:58
  • As for the automation, I am not so sure, and it might be a good feature-request. Do open a new meta post asking for that and we can see what the community feels like. (To clarify, I'm a volunteer moderator here and not an employee so I can't do anything about the current system) Also I've already clarified that I'm not asking you to "not mark spam as spam", you are free to ignore my opinion and flag as spam. Jul 31, 2018 at 8:59
  • In an ideal world, we would not be nuking any posts which are salvageable (new users or old) ... but alas, we don't live in one. Jul 31, 2018 at 9:03
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    @BhargavRao "The answer was quite valid, and would probably have helped someone in the future. The only issue which it had was that it contained affiliate links." Um, no. This "answer" was a pair of affiliate links, followed by a slight rearrangement of the shell script from the second-highest-rated answer to that question. Secondly, this answer is actually the second answer posted by that user on that question - their previous answer was only the affiliate links (they deleted their first answer to post the one in question, presumably because they realised it would be too obvious).
    – Ian Kemp
    Jul 31, 2018 at 13:17
  • @BhargavRao (contd) The only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that the user was astroturfing a high-trafficked question in order to earn affiliate money. Arguing that it's not spam "because it contains bits that are a valid answer" is a nonsensical way to abrogate responsibility.
    – Ian Kemp
    Jul 31, 2018 at 13:23
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    @IanKemp, if you read the entire answer, I've no where mentioned that it's not spam. Let me remind you that custom flags have more responsibilities and tasks involved than mere spam flags where you need to just click a helpful button. Therefore, I'm asking for more work, and mentioning that asking for custom flags is a way to "abrogate responsibility" doesn't make much sense. Jul 31, 2018 at 16:27

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