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What is "meta"? How does it work? - Help Center - Stack Overflow says:

Voting is different on meta.

Like normal Stack Exchange sites, Meta allows members to vote on questions and answers. For most posts, votes reflect the perceived usefulness: well-written, well-reasoned, well-researched posts tend to get more attention and more upvotes. Highly-voted and frequently-linked posts may become part of the community-curated FAQ or codified as part of the site’s Help pages.

Unlike normal Stack Exchange sites, Meta invites the community to discuss, debate and propose changes to the way the community itself behaves, as well as how the software itself works. On posts tagged , voting indicates agreement or disagreement with the proposed change rather than just the quality or usefulness of the post itself.

However, it seems that in reality, "opinion voting" is applicable to, and actually used in practice in virtually all cases, because every meta post effectively either proposes something or expresses an opinion, thus falls under what is called "feature request" in the help article (i.e. is an "invite" to "discuss, debate and propose changes to the way the community itself behaves"):

  • posts are effectively stating that something is an evident issue (and asks for feedback on which course we should take) or arguing that the community should take some general venue.
    • voting is thus the community vote on whether this is actually an issue or a venue worth considering.
      • voting on an answer to express this instead is not a good substitution because a "this is not a good idea" "default" answer is not an answer worth spending your time posting: it doesn't add anything to the discussion, voting is enough to say that.
  • posts are of a few kinds, but in all cases, there's still an opinion to judge at the core:
    • "something has happened that I think is wrong"
      • => vote on whether you agree it's wrong
    • "some privileged action is needed"
      • => vote on whether you agree it is needed
    • "I want to be able to do X, please tell me how"
      • => vote on whether you think X is a good idea/useful thing to do.

Actually, given a meta site's topic, "opinion voting" is even equivalent to the "perceived usefulness: well-written, well-reasoned, well-researched posts" that the current text speaks of: a post is only "useful" for a meta site if the idea/proposition is good.


This was kinda obvious and self-evident for me. But it turns out that some people still don't get it, despite all the evidence.

So, I'm suggesting to reformulate https://stackoverflow.com/help/whats-meta to state that "opinion voting" is the default on meta sites rather than only applying in some select cases.


Since it's fundamentally equivalent to the current wording as shown above, all that the change would do is reflect the practice that is in effect anyway and clarify the matter: instead of two conflicting voting principles, there's now one, plain and simple.

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    The question is whether things are intended to work this way, or whether that's just what users are doing (despite it not technically being "correct"). If it's the latter, Stack Exchange probably don't want to encourage it more. Jul 15, 2018 at 18:49
  • @Dukeling Since this lends itself perfectly to the meta's nature and mechanics (e.g. there's no reputation from votes), I do argue that this is the right thing, whether it was intended or not. Help text actually suggests that this wasn't intended and just emerged naturally (FYI metas themselves also weren't intended and were even argued against initially). Jul 15, 2018 at 18:56
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    feature-request is a binary question -- Should we implement feature X as described? with one of two possible responses: yes or no. That lends itself to using question votes for this purpose. But any discussion is almost inevitably non-binary: if the author of the question has presented 10 points and I agree with 8 of them, am I to upvote or downvote the question? In that case, it makes sense for votes on the question to be votes on the quality of the post or the usefulness of the discussion, and agreement or disagreement to be expressed via upvotes/downvotes on the answers.
    – Zev Spitz
    Jul 16, 2018 at 5:33
  • @ZevSpitz is not a binary question, there's always room for correction. Otherwise, we'd need a few iterations of each feature request ('cuz it's nigh-impossible to get it just right on the first try, without feedback) which is both wasteful and undermines the process by giving further readers and proponents a wrong idea on whether the idea is worth pursuing. So votes say if you "generally agree/disagree", with comments or answers suggesting any changes and your stance on them. Jul 16, 2018 at 10:21

2 Answers 2

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Your classification of Meta questions has one major omission: questions in which the OP is genuinely asking for advice on how to better deal with some kind of situation. A question of the form "I found myself in a situation X and chose to do Y, an action which was poorly received. What would be a better way of dealing with such a situation?" would be a typical example. Disagreeing with what such a question states is besides the point. While the OP might have had a misunderstanding about the site which led them to do Y, they are not standing for and defending their misunderstanding. We do not downvote main site questions just because the OP is mistaken about something, and the same should happen in Meta.

It is also worth noting that, if Meta is where folks should post questions looking for advice on how to use the site, downvoting them merely for not knowing the answer to what they want to ask is counterproductive.

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    I think you'll find that people people posting a question in which they clearly don't know what they should do and are looking to find out what they should have done, or should do, don't attract many downvotes. But that's actually somewhat uncommon. Usually people are advocating for a particular response to a situation, or demonstrate that they don't have an open mind about what other's think responses should be, and thus some people will incorporate the (implicit or explicit) position the question takes as to what course of action should be taken into their vote.
    – Servy
    Nov 30, 2018 at 14:28
  • @Servy I do see questions of that sort being downvoted -- not always, to be sure, but with some frequency. My argument is very similar to that made in ryanyuyu's answer to that related question of yours.
    – duplode
    Nov 30, 2018 at 14:35
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    And as with any category of the question, some of them will be poorly researched, not well written, not clear, etc. For example, sometimes someone asking a question but not putting forth an (implicit or explicit) position may be asking something that others feel is obvious, and that they either should have known or could have easily found out by looking through the help center. (Or by reading comments on the post they're asking about. It's an instant downvote from me if someone posts on meta asking what's wrong with a question that already has comments on it that they haven't addressed.)
    – Servy
    Nov 30, 2018 at 14:40
  • @Servy "For example, sometimes someone asking a question but not putting forth an (implicit or explicit) position may be asking something that others feel is obvious [...]" -- That indeed is a fair reason for downvoting, but it only applies sometimes. In my experience, it doesn't seem to (reasonably) justify all instances of such voting patterns.
    – duplode
    Nov 30, 2018 at 14:44
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    Indeed. So when you say those questions are sometimes downvoted, and sometimes not, and I've put forth an explanation for why those questions would sometimes merit a downvote and sometimes not, that's consistent with my hypothesis, no?
    – Servy
    Nov 30, 2018 at 14:45
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    @Servy To my eyes, there is enough deviation between what I'd expect from this criterion and what actually happens on Meta to suggest that is not necessarily the only justification at play.
    – duplode
    Nov 30, 2018 at 14:51
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    Sure. Voting on meta is complex. There are lots of factors at play, different people use different criteria, or weigh them differently. Nothing is the sole factor in determining how people vote on any given post, let alone posts in general. (Other than the sometimes unhelpfully vague statement that the vote indicates whether or not the voter thinks the post is useful.)
    – Servy
    Nov 30, 2018 at 14:54
  • @duplode I can't readily imagine any concrete question of the type you gave, but it'll clearly be a support question. AFAICS, it'll either 1) fall under "I want to do X" -- because you don't just "find yourself in situation X" out of the blue, you got there trying to achieve something; and/or 2) it clearly contains an implied statement: "I did my research before asking, and there's no evident info on this topic." So "agreement" would be if they really did do the research -- e.g. if their problem is covered by essential reading. Nov 30, 2018 at 16:18
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    @ivan_pozdeev (1) I'm not talking about [support] questions. [support] is meant for help with the site features; questions looking for advice on user behaviour or community moderation practices are supposed to be tagged [discussion]. (2) Your interpretation of "agreement" in the case #2 you mention feels like an unnatural contortion tailored to fit an overly broad generalisation -- when people say "agreement", I think they almost never mean "agreement with a meta premise to the decision of posting the question".
    – duplode
    Nov 30, 2018 at 16:39
  • @duplode (1) I would argue that a site's processes and culture are just as much "features" of it, and [support] applies to anything that asks for application of features to a specific situation rather than arguing about those features themselves. This isn't important here though, so I'll let this drop. Dec 4, 2018 at 9:18
  • @duplode (2) I do feel some opinion here; apparently, didn't manage to formulate it well. Let me try again. By asking for clarification about a certain situation, the OP is implicitly arguing that existing community guidelines are unclear (or nonexistent) here, and it would be useful to clarify them. Dec 4, 2018 at 9:22
  • @duplode Besides, even if "agreement voting" is not applicable here, this doesn't refute my observation that the two principles are equivalent. If only one is applicable to some situation, there's no conflict between them, either! Dec 4, 2018 at 9:24
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In the course of discussion, it turned out that "opinion voting" is actually equivalent to "usefulness voting", in the sense that it leads to the same results in all cases -- even if many don't realize this: a meta post is useful for the site if and only if the community agrees with the express or implied opinion that it contains.

So, these "two voting principles" are not actually "conflicting", and either can be used.

Judging by the votes, there isn't enough demand in the community for clarifying this in the help, and folks would rather have an illusion of two principles, ending up "right for the wrong reason".

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    While I do think the existing statements on the matter are bad enough explanations to cause problems, it's worth noting that an explanation actually capable of helping others understand the nuances of how meta users tend to vote is...not easy to write, and is not likely to be short either. While we can do better, even a better explanation is likely to still result in lots of confusion and mis-interpretations, due to the inherent complexity of what needs to be explained. That's part of why it's so hard to change it.
    – Servy
    Jul 23, 2018 at 15:16
  • @Servy Nothing complicated here. Just say that either principle can be used: (instead of "On posts tagged...":) "For posts that argue or propose something, voting indicates agreement or disagreement with the argument or the proposition rather than just the quality or usefulness of the post itself. (It has been shown that these two principles are actually equivalent for meta's purpose: every meta post explicitly or implicitly argues something, and an argument or idea is only useful in the long term if it managed to get community support.)" Jul 23, 2018 at 23:22

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