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It seems to me that down-votes and flagging serve the same over-all purpose, to keep questions and answers to a standard of quality.

The problem I see with down-votes is that they stack on-top of flagging and they can snowball out of control.

Someone receiving 10 down-votes is more likely to delete their question and never return than they are to fix it.

Alternatively, I feel like it's more likely to keep someone around if we were to simply flag their question as "Too broad" and pointed them in the right direction to focusing their question while the question was put on-hold might be a bit more understanding and likely to keep that user around to join the community.

Would it really change anything if it were modified so that clicking the down-vote button made the flagging menu pop-up? Do down-votes add any actual value to the site.

I imagine there's something to do with the algorithm and automation but you could keep it for behind-the-scenes purposes only if that were the case.

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  • 13
    'Someone receiving 10 down-votes is more likely to delete their question and never return'.. is that a bad thing, then? I mean, it must be a really bad question, and if that user stayed, we would probably get more of the same:( Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:00
  • It may take time for new people to adjust to our way of writing questions and answers. I know it took me quite a bit of time. So why try and cast them out immediately? Give them time to acclimate.
    – Shelby115
    Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:01
  • 4
    @Shelby115 if you find one, rather than a continual collection of repeated, unresearched quiz/homework dumps, please let me know. Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:03
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    In the absence of darkness, the light is blinding. If we had no downvotes, upvotes would have no meaning.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:04
  • 1
    @TinyGiant actually, the ability to have different amount of upvotes, including none, already gives you a dynamic range without the need to go into the negative.
    – dtech
    Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:06
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    @Shelby115 'may take time for new people to adjust to our way of writing questions' sure, and they can spend that time reading the rules/policy/tour instead of clicking 'OK' and dumping the 1000th dupe of 'getchar() returns twice but I only entered one char'. I'm afraid that a great many questions from new accounts are just not useful to future SO users/visitors and just suck volunteer time away from what good questions turn up:( Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:09
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    @Shelby115 Downvotes != flag. Flag is for off-topic, too broad, should be put on hold/closed questions... Downvotes is for low quality. You can be on-topic, clear, not too broad, and still have written a bad question.....
    – Patrice
    Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:09
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    Fewer upvotes do not necessarily mean it is a bad question/answer, neither do many upvotes necessarily mean they are good. Depending on the topic/tags you have a different target audience that tends to give more or fewer votes in relation to the views. So having only upvotes would reduce meaningfulness of the vote.
    – t.niese
    Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:10
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    Without any darkness whatsoever, there is no shades, only light. Nothing would appear any different from anything else. If we could not provide a signal that something is bad, and only that stuff is good, you have no way of identifying content as poor quality. Flags only work for content that doesn't fit, not content that is wrong or lower quality than what we expect.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:11
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    @Shelby115 no... I don't downvote for off-topic, I vote to close. Same for too broad. And how do you flag "poorly written"? That's not a close-reason... so it is a downvote reason.
    – Patrice
    Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:11
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    'If we treat all as if they were the majority the world would be a much worse place' - oh, that has already happened since forever. If you wish to spend your free time regurgitating the same answers every Sunday, that's OK, but many do not wish to just waste effort in such a manner:( Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:11
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    BTW I downvote content that lacks quality and usefulness. I vote to close questions that are off topic, and I flag content that qualifies for flags. Those actions all serve their own unique purposes and should not be conflated.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:15
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    Don't vote on a post's score, or what score you think it deserves. Vote based on the content of the post.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:20
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    Any cap we place on downvotes has to also be applied to upvotes. Anything else skews the quality metric. And to address the general welcoming aspect: we have rules. We have to enforce them to maintain quality. We can certainly be more welcoming, but new users can also adapt and actually try to fit in, instead of dumping a poor question on us and insist we deal with it.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 19:02
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    @dtech Even bad posts occasionally get upvotes. Without downvotes, score would be of no use when it comes to distinguishing bad posts from okay posts, or from good posts that didn't get many upvotes because they had few views.
    – duplode
    Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 19:31

1 Answer 1

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It seems to me that down-votes and flagging serve the same over-all purpose, to keep questions and answers to a standard of quality.

This is sort of loosely true, but they address different types of problems, and in different ways. Not all downvote worthy posts merit being flagged, and not all posts that merit being flagged are downvote worthy, even though there is a lot of overlap.

It's worth addressing at this point that you seem to largely conflate "flagging" with "closing". It's worth noting that flagging is for doing all sorts of things besides closing questions, and voting to close a question doesn't require flagging it. But given your usage of the term, I'm going to assume all usages of "flagging" in your question refer to closure, because flagging is really just a different beast entirely. Note my first paragraph applies to both closing and flagging.

The purpose of a downvote is to indicate that a post is not useful. There are lots of reasons that a post might not be useful, and users are given wide freedoms in using their own criteria for what they think is useful.

Closing is for posts that cannot (or are extremely unlikely to) be given a quality answer. These are much more strict that downvotes. There are certain types of problems a question can have that lead them to either being unanswerable, or not likely to attract quality answers. While there is certainly lots of room for interpretation, there is certainly far less than for downvotes. These are for questions that simply cannot be understood, are way too broad to be answered here, are off topic, etc. But a question may end up not being a useful question even if it is technically still answerable.

So while both downvotes and close votes do serve to increase the quality of content on the site, they both exist to address different types of problems, and in different ways, and so are not redundant.

Someone receiving 10 down-votes is more likely to delete their question and never return than they are to fix it.

This is true enough. Asking good questions is hard. Lots of people either can't, or are unwilling to put the time needed to actually do it. Others still just don't understand why it would be important for them to ask a good question.

Alternatively, I feel like it's more likely to keep someone around if we were to simply flag their question as "Too broad" and pointed them in the right direction to focusing their question while the question was put on-hold might be a bit more understanding and likely to keep that user around to join the community.

Sadly this is just as flawed as the previous point. People don't improve their closed questions much, whether downvoted or not, in addition to typically not improving their downvoted questions. This is mostly for the same reasons mentioned above.

Would it really change anything if it were modified so that clicking the down-vote button made the flagging menu pop-up?

A large enough portion of downvote-worthy questions don't merit flagging, or closure; this would just cause more problems than it would solve, as it would just result in improper flags/votes being cast.

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  • I guess I came to these conclusions as all of the posts I see down-voted are already closed or on-hold, understandable mishap. As for the down-voted or closed questions not being fixed I would be curious to know if SE/SO has done any research to see if this is because of the related UI (Seeing a big yellow banner saying your question is bad isn't the most inviting message to fix your question) or if this is just because most people don't care to.
    – Shelby115
    Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:17
  • @Shelby115 Lots of people have done lots of things to try to get people to improve their bad questions. The UI has gone over lots of changes over the years, lots of people do lots of different things. You still don't really see more than a ~5% rate of people actually fixing their posts though.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:20
  • @Shelby115 - For a few of the close reasons the issue is that the question just isn't fixable. Not much someone can do about a question not even being programming related, just a typo, or a duplicate. A rec request can't be fixed unless there was a specific programming goal behind it.
    – BSMP
    Commented Jun 12, 2018 at 18:57
  • If the community feels that a question is not useful, why should it allow that question to be answered? When we say "useful", do we not mean "... for the purpose of building a library of high-quality answers"? Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 20:34
  • @KarlKnechtel Such a proposal seems tempting. The biggest problem I see is that if you don't allow negatively scored questions to be answered, you highly incentivize people to upvote low quality questions so that they can answer them (because, sadly, lots of people are interested in posting low quality answers to low quality questions for reasons that would take more than this comment to explain). I could see a world where that might work out, but I feel that in practice the perverse incentives it results in would make it a net negative.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 21:27
  • What I think I'm suggesting is more along the lines of making it easier to accompany the downvote with a flag or VTC. Or just start questions out closed, ya know. Commented Sep 1, 2023 at 22:04

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