49

I bumped to this question, where the OP has asked to write a SQL query for his use case. But the OP has not even entered a basic minimal, complete, and verifiable example. It was clearly seen that he didn't even researched about his problem, otherwise he'd have got many duplicate questions for his use-case on Stack Overflow.

Image

So despite knowing the answer to the question, I preferred to ask the OP first about what he tried. But in between, many high rep users already answered the question. This is weird behavior (especially from high rep users) to NOT mark the question BAD and answering the same!!

This question "Is it okay to downvote answers to bad questions" is closely related to mine, but it doesn't satisfy the query I have. I too knew the answer but instead of rep hunting I preferred asking the OP of what he tried first. But I think, that got me no merits!

So what is the moral of the story? I shall too be answering the bad questions instead of wasting time to teach/ask OP. I shall NOT flag either, vote to close the question or mark it duplicate as it won't give me rep! I will join the horse race...without seeing the quality.

The point here I want to make is, cases like this brings encouragement to bad questions more and discouragement to those set of users who actively focus on quality and actually do actions against the bad questions. No, I am not talking about "Punishing answerers of bad questions". What should be the ideal approach in such cases when you know the answer, but the question is bad but others answers it immediately?

27
  • 83
    High rep is not the same as a good citizen, not at all :(
    – brasofilo
    May 21, 2018 at 3:47
  • 2
    So in not taking action against the question, what point were you trying to make?
    – Makoto
    May 21, 2018 at 4:24
  • 3
    @brasofilo True, high rep is not same as good citizen, but all good citizens like high rep game and that's y SO has rep feature centrally involved. So when it comes to Quality vs Rep hunt, rep hunt wins everytime. May 21, 2018 at 4:36
  • 2
    I think you glossed over my main point. You didn't take action against the question yourself, did you?
    – Makoto
    May 21, 2018 at 4:43
  • 3
    I downvoted that question already. But have not taken any other action as I wanted to wait for the OP to actually reply my comment. But meanwhile many other users answered the question instead of demanding a MCVE or downvoting. May 21, 2018 at 4:46
  • 8
    I typically give the OP 24hr or less to fix their question (if it's fixable), or less if it's both junk and shows no effort ('Givemetehcodez', ignores, blatant duplicate, no effort and not reproducible). Others here are more aggressive. As to other users intentionally answering such bad questions, the only thing that prevents them is closing the question. The bigger picture is that SO is incentivizing bad behavior and needs tweaking.
    – smci
    May 21, 2018 at 4:52
  • 6
    @smci It's too late. Any tweaks now will be immediately hammered as hostile/unwelcome/whatever. May 21, 2018 at 5:11
  • 13
    I don't see any point in waiting to close this. It's a simple query on one table and, if the OP had made any kind of attempt, they would have probably succeeded on their own. It's so basic that it could even be a troll, baiting to build evidence of hostility. Get it closed - no point in commenting or waiting. Leaving it open just grows cucumbers, as you noted. May 21, 2018 at 5:20
  • 10
    It's not a debugging question, so an mcve is not required. It's not overly broad at all. The one thing it probably is is a duplicate. Find the duplicate, close it as such and move on.
    – user4639281
    May 21, 2018 at 5:20
  • 7
    Please anonymise the users/questions here.
    – cs95
    May 21, 2018 at 6:21
  • 4
    It’s like the problems of StackOverflow never change. Pretty sure I’ve seen a variant of this question every year here on SO since I’ve been a member. May 21, 2018 at 10:40
  • 8
    This is common in the SQL tags. Many very very high rep users who got their rep this way. May 21, 2018 at 11:30
  • 4
    People with your attitude is why I am extremely removed from the community. There was a point in which I tried really hard to contribute but I got tired of all the backlash my questions or answers would get.
    – Brad
    May 21, 2018 at 16:12
  • 4
    Quote: "... otherwise he'd have got many duplicate questions for his use-case on Stack Overflow". In that case I would vote to close and refer to one of the many duplicates and move on to a more interesting question. Pointing to one (or more) duplicates will also be helpful to OP and others that happens to read the question. May 22, 2018 at 6:12
  • 10
    I've ever had rude comment (almost insults) by an OP once for that, i was merely saying "Please improve your question" and got "You are ruining this site, see all other people have answered, and you're the only one complaining". Answered to that "I'm just stating the site rules", a bit later, my comments were removed with his answer, but not the question and answers.. No points gained, was taken as a target for being the worse person here, no influence whatsoever on the problem, mods confirmed i'm useless.. despair
    – Kaddath
    May 22, 2018 at 12:46

4 Answers 4

35

The correct approach here is to flag/close vote the question as too broad and then leave it at that. If you can find a duplicate, even better. When the question is closed, it will eventually get deleted along with the answers, so those who posted answers put in their effort for nothing.

Dropping a comment "what have you tried" isn't very helpful, unless you go all the way and drop helpful links to MCVE or the SO help. We all get fed up with these kind of questions, so it is better to just close them down as quickly as possible and move on.

I agree that people should not post answers to these kind of questions, it only encourages more of the same. However, there is no rule forbidding them to do so. Ideally, each answer should only be judged by the technical merit of that answer. That's more or less the community consensus on these matters.

That being said, how to cast downvotes is subjective. If you feel that these answers create a worse site, then there is no rule forbidding you to downvote them. This is a bit of a hot potato, as you can tell from those other meta discussions you linked. Some users dislike such answers and downvote them together with the question. Others frown at that behavior.

But there will be no moderator actions taken against the answers, as long as the answers do answer the question - no matter how bad that question might be.

12
  • 19
    "When the question is closed, it will eventually get deleted along with the answers" Unless the answer is sufficiently upvoted, which happens more often than one would wish. We can't do much about this anyway.
    – E_net4
    May 21, 2018 at 8:15
  • 7
    "If you feel that these answers create a worse site, then there is no rule forbidding you to downvote them." - Technically yes, we must understand that new users (below 1k) don't clearly understand the rules, and it is up to us to show them how they are harming the site. A downvote on a "technically" correct answer merely infuriates the answerer, but doesn't prevent them from posting similar answers in future. So, I typically post one-liner comments on the answer explaining the problem, and people almost always delete the answer. May 22, 2018 at 5:27
  • 1
    Downvote, flag and move on
    – Adelin
    May 22, 2018 at 5:34
  • @E_net4 after 2 days, it's relatively easy to delete a question, even (slightly) upvoted. I do that all the time. May 22, 2018 at 12:25
  • @NisargShah All comments are one-liner anyway.
    – user202729
    May 23, 2018 at 14:16
  • I really don't like downvoting technically correct answers, since it can skew the perception of readers who are trying to evaluate the answers. But when moderately high rep users (>10k, possibly with gold tag badge) habitually answer no-effort questions within minutes, while others are trying to coax the OP into showing some effort it can be really irritating. Some of the worst offenders are competent coders, but they tend to make sloppy mistakes, or misinterpret the question in their FGITW haste. :(
    – PM 2Ring
    May 23, 2018 at 15:30
  • @PM2Ring: don't assume that experienced users on the site are evil or stupid by default e.g., if you don't understand why they post answers that make the site worse in your opinion try to imagine a world where they think that by posting a correct answer they make the internet a better place (it may be true or false). The history of the linked Meta discussions shows that it is a complex issue. Don't jump to conclusions. Assume good faith.
    – jfs
    May 23, 2018 at 15:49
  • @jfs I do try to assume good faith, but it can be hard when you see the same people doing this stuff regularly. FWIW, I agree with jpp's proposition that it can be good for a skilled coder to post a good answer before a deluge of poor answers arrives; I've even done that myself from time to time. But I don't like it when a FGITW answer "sabotages" others' efforts to get the OP to show some effort with a couple of lines of vaguely relevant code, or even just a sentence or two of what they've tried.
    – PM 2Ring
    May 23, 2018 at 16:02
  • 1
    How do you reconcile the "Downvote, flag and move on" approach with SO's newly stated goals of being more inclusive? In the recent blog post they explicitly write "Let’s make it easier for new users to succeed", "Let’s shift from 'don’t be an asshole' to 'be welcoming'" , and "Let’s stop judging users for not knowing things. (We’re a Q&A site!)" stackoverflow.blog/2018/04/26/…
    – aensm
    May 23, 2018 at 16:18
  • 1
    @aensm That's an informal blog, not a policy. And it has been debated endlessly in at least 10 other meta posts. There is no need to bring it up in this context too, unless there is an actual policy change. Pick your favourite out of these.
    – Lundin
    May 24, 2018 at 6:41
  • @Lundin I've recently taken to answering bad and dead questions and doing my hardest to give good answers to them. I understand that some are poorly asked, or have been asked before, but to my knowledge, no reputation is earned for doing your moderator responsibilities (at least at my level of reputation) so I'm more keen to answer these questions to clean up the number of unanswered questions and refine what I already know. Most of the "good" questions and answers an entry/moderate level can ask have already been answered, but I can't determine if this pitfall is beneficial to the site
    – Jouster500
    Jun 11, 2018 at 18:03
  • @Jouster500 I might be wrong, but I believe you get some rep for editing and doing reviews etc, up to a certain limit. Otherwise, the best way to earn rep in my experience, is to stop caring about the "rep hunting" mini-game and instead focus on giving answers in the topics where you have the most technical expertise. Or come up with smart and well-written questions about topics where you don't.
    – Lundin
    Jun 12, 2018 at 6:16
16

I commiserate with the high-rep users who answered. As @Lundin points out in his answer, the correct approach is to close vote as too broad.

But this takes far too long...

15 minutes is enough time for half a dozen bad answers and typically not enough time to gather 5 close votes. A high-rep user may be answering to stem the flow. If a question is unclear or too broad, it's often the case that a good duplicate target cannot be found.

What may be construed as bad citizenship could be the better of two evils.

...And it won't change

Several years ago, when the gold dupehammer was offered as a means of quickly closing duplicate questions, it was suggested, if the experiment was a success, that privileges for non-gold tag holders would also be considered. For example, weighted close votes or including silver badge tag holders.

Despite this, nothing has happened. Something has fundamentally changed.

17
  • 2
    Well, a single SQL/MySQL dupe hammer who knew of a canonical dupe could have shut this down in minutes. The tags should have enough traffic to have plenty of dupe hammer wielders. But of course that doesn't help if they aren't aware of some good canonical dupe.
    – Lundin
    May 21, 2018 at 9:52
  • 3
    @Lundin, Yep, I'm not sure about [sql], but [python] has a dedicated resource for documenting canonicals / duplicate targets.
    – jpp
    May 21, 2018 at 10:00
  • 3
    If gold tag badge holders could single-handedly close for other reasons, that might change things (whether it would be a good change, I cannot say). The worst questions often have many reasons they can be closed, closing those as duplicate tends to be the most effort. Although there are certainly also plenty of answerers who just don't care (enough) about this whole "quality" thing. May 21, 2018 at 11:45
  • 3
    @Dukeling, My point exactly. Equally, it's sometimes the case that a duplicate is chosen even when it's not the right reason but the question is lacking in 3 other ways. Giving more power to the community to close as the correct reason in a timely manner would alleviate the problem.
    – jpp
    May 21, 2018 at 11:47
  • How about a 'TurboClose' vote. Available to silvers and 10K, the TC looks like a 'normal' close-vote, but behaves differently. Casting a TC costs 10 rep and prevents any answers being posted for a couple hours. If the question gets the other 4 close-votes, it is closed and the TC votes gets its 10 rep back. If it is not closed, the TC voter has lost 10 rep, (donate to OP as compo for being made to wait 2 hours?). May 21, 2018 at 12:02
  • 1
    @Lundin I wield the dupehammer quite often in MySQL questions. However, even if I hammer a question within minutes of being asked, answers may appear because of the grace period applied (see meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252711/…) after the question had been closed.
    – Shadow
    May 21, 2018 at 12:09
  • If a question score less than zero (downvote) would somewhat hide it (requiring more effort to see it), it would effectively result in it being ignored and thus answers would not be posted (as for answers on Quora - sample: Why does Stack Overflow promote condescension towards beginners in the name of quality?). May 21, 2018 at 13:10
  • 2
    some gold badge owners never close as dupe, they prefer answering over and over. Some others prefer to answer original questions & close the others (even if sometimes a not-so-obivous-to-find duplicate could be discovered after the answers) May 22, 2018 at 12:27
  • 2
    I proposed to increase the delay before anyone can answer here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/368070/…. Strangely it got more downvotes than upvotes... but it would fix the FFGITW answers of the same dupe... related as well: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/316564/… May 22, 2018 at 12:31
  • 7
    A high-rep user may be answering to stem the flow. I call BS. The high rep user answering those kinds of question is picking low-hanging fruit to enhance their own rep. I can (but won't) point out at least two very-high (considerably higher than mine) rep users who engage in this practice regularly.
    – Ken White
    May 22, 2018 at 13:13
  • 1
    @KenWhite, I get your point of view, I really do. I just don't think we can paint everyone and every instance with this brush. Some duplicates are hard to find, or bad targets, or occasionally have worse answers. Other times the question is unclear / too broad, but someone is interested in answering. Yes, the guy's breaking the rules (not following "the correct approach here is to close as too broad") but, frankly, in its current state (needing 5 votes) I often can't even hope for close votes to close a question in a timely manner. So why bother?
    – jpp
    May 22, 2018 at 13:20
  • 3
    @jpp: So why bother? Because we don't want SO to turn into just another one of those trash-filled pits and instead want to keep it a pretty damned good resource for developers. If that's not worth the effort, why bother to come here in the first place? Use Google Groups or Quora to ask your questions. That should work, if you don't need anything different or better, right?
    – Ken White
    May 22, 2018 at 15:43
  • 1
    "Despite this, nothing has happened. Something has fundamentally changed." You mean that before the people behind the site were listening to anything, users complained about? In my experience it's pretty normal that nothing changes. Not only here. May 23, 2018 at 15:05
  • 1
    @jpp No. But what do you mean then by "something has fundamentally changed"? What has changed? May 23, 2018 at 15:06
  • 1
    @Trilarion, Ah sorry if I was unclear. So at some point in the past there was an indication of more self-empowerment as a potential trend (cf 2014 dupehammer-uleashing post on potential new powers to gold/silver tag holders). Since then, the thinking of the SO staff seems to have changed to not even acknowledge / respond to the numerous calls since then to increase the ability of trusted users to filter content.
    – jpp
    May 23, 2018 at 15:09
0

My opinion is to edit the post/or pop a comment in and close the question. Make sure to put a comment in as to why you requested it closed. That way in future they know what not to do. And do not have a whinge in the comments about how they put their question together without addressing the why, this happens all the time on SO.

I have seen too many posts where the question was specific but poorly phrased that were closed with no comment, no feedback to tell the person why it was closed besides the standard "your question is too broad...etc."

In a lot of these cases it was very obvious the people closing it and commenting with insults had not actually read the question properly. With statements like "I have looked for x on SO but this is different in Y way" being completely ignored.

Off the soapbox now.

6
  • Editing the post is often not viable because additional information is required which only the questioner can provide. Leaving a comment and voting to close are good options but cannot prevent the creation of quick answers of mediocre quality. Not sure what you mean by "why". The why is always to make it an answerable question (on topic, clear, containing sufficient information, ...). If you see closed questions that you think should remain open, vote for reopen or discuss them on meta. If you see insults in the comments, they should definitely be flagged. That's what I can think of for now. May 23, 2018 at 15:01
  • The why has nothing to do with making a better question, it is something a lot of mods are leaving out when they close a question. They don't say why it was closed. A lot of mods JUST close the question with a generic "too broad" category. If you request a question closed you should have to say why it was too broad. I have seen a lot of specific, but poorly phrased questions get closed like this, ones with an easily identifiable problem and specific question the user was asking.
    – Slipoch
    May 29, 2018 at 5:06
  • I understand now what you mean. You basically say that the given explanation why a question was closed could be more extensive. I kind of agree, but then one has to see that this would also be a lot of work and all the work here is done by volunteers. You could argue that if we run at limited processing capacity then it's better to close less but give better explanations on these closures. You could propose that here on meta. Actually I think it would be interesting to discuss this. May 29, 2018 at 8:51
  • That's exactly what I was suggesting, close less, explain better. I have also seen some closed because it's a repeated question with a link to the thread they think is repeated, but the question itself addresses this and explains why that thread is not relevant. So it is obvious some mods are not reading the questions.
    – Slipoch
    May 30, 2018 at 22:17
  • Don't know if you know it but not all question closers are mods. Basically all regular users above 2000 rep points can vote to close. I agree that some questions that get closed should stay open, that's why there is a reopen vote too. On the other hand if you ask people here they would probably agree that not enough questions get closed. And while they probably would like to have better explanations too, they might not want to do the work required for this to work. As I said, you could have a discussion about it on meta. May 31, 2018 at 6:12
  • Yeah sorry, I use the term mod to mean anyone with the ability to close a thread.
    – Slipoch
    May 31, 2018 at 6:28
-1

I see the moral of the story differently from you:

StackExchange are sites that create deeply conflicting interests.

On the one hand you have the site rules that promotes the pure question / answer format where no duplicates are allowed and quality is to be promoted. Supporters of this view could see themselves as crusaders while others could see them as a brutal police force.

On the other side of the wide spectrum you have some powers that work against the site rules:

  • A reputation system (and given bounties it is also a form of currency system) that rewards quick mass answers, possibly of low quality.
  • Many people like to just lend a helping hand, and that may involve giving quick answers to people that don't know better instead of slapping them on the wrist.
  • Many people will look upon StackExchange sites as a way of quickly getting a helping hand

This lead to different interests in how to use StackExchange sites. Not all people directly know or agree with all the site rules, and thus they will not abide by them in the way you interpret them, because they have other agendas than you have.

The solution?

I think the only way you could possibly 'solve' the 'problem' would be to start allowing decreasing other peoples reputation for rule violations (partially already possible). But is that a community you think a lot of people would want to be a part in, where there would be a fear of answering the 'wrong' question or where lending a hand in the 'wrong' way would be punished?

1
  • This is a good point on the competing interests.
    – Slipoch
    May 29, 2018 at 5:20

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