68

Just something I noticed, lately:

There's a moderator that (imo, too often) deletes and then undeletes their own answers on Meta. Often, this mostly happens without any edits made while the answer is deleted.

I don't know what the reasoning behind it is, but it looks somewhat unsavory. It seems like an emotional action instead of a rational one.
(or maybe I'm just completely misinterpreting what's going on)

It comes across as if the moderator is trying to hide something, or just can't make up their mind.
(I'm not saying that's the case, just that that's how it looks to me)

Sure, that can happen once, but it's starting to look like a pattern (Multiple different answers / questions)

My suggestion:

  • If you're not sure of your actions, don't write an answer (yet). Discuss it with your colleague moderators, first.
  • If your answer is met with negativity, don't delete it. Own up to it, learn from it.

And if these are steps you're already taking, that's awesome! Then it just means I completely mis-interpreted what was going on.

enter image description here

58
  • 38
    Unfortunately the actions here stand out to me because I have also seen this -- negative votes? Delete. It's a pattern that worries me, for reasons I won't get into on this thread. Commented May 17, 2018 at 16:52
  • 14
    I'm not sure how this sort of behavior is acceptable from a moderator. The undelete is supposed to be strictly for correcting deleted actions. Not to be used whimsically with delete to protect your own answer from downvotes or whatever at the time logic results in the deletion.
    – Trasiva
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 16:55
  • 12
    Hmya, I think most of us had a rough idea that it was going to take a while to get this moderator up to speed. If we give, erm, it a chance that it will surely happen. Commented May 17, 2018 at 16:59
  • 22
    @user2285236: This is not about that one answer. This is becoming a pattern. A pattern I'd rather not see from any moderator. This discussion is a chance to reflect on that.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 17:02
  • 46
    @Nicol Bolas: I wouldn't say it's wrong, it's just... really unusual behavior. A normal user doing this would've received a message from us asking if they're... ok.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 17:06
  • 8
    @BoltClock Let's be honest, someone else doing that woulda been put in time out until a discussion was had about the behavior since it's not constructive and could be seen as abusing the vote system.
    – Trasiva
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 17:07
  • 39
    (I feel oddly tempted to delete my comment now, then undelete it, then delete it again, ...)
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 17:07
  • 10
    @Trasiva: We'd put them on timeout if they were actively mashing delete/undelete at the time...
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 17:09
  • 19
    @BoltClock A normal user doing this ... so we just have to accept moderators are not normal? I didn't see that one coming ... ;)
    – rene
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 17:15
  • 40
    On a similar, IMO even slightly more serious note, I've also noticed some mod's poorly received posts getting disassociated. I don't think bailing out of negatively received Meta posts is a good use of that mechanic, especially when the author is a moderator.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 17:57
  • 25
    @BoltClock I'm sure they did; I just wanted to express that this should happen very rarely, if at all, and should not even come close to become a normal or standard procedure, when talking about moderators' Meta posts.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 18:35
  • 14
    What exactly is there to discuss here?
    – Travis J
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 19:09
  • 48
    SO meta has more drama than a soap opera
    – Clint
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 21:46
  • 11
    I find it alarming that this inflammatory post is now trending.
    – cs95
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 0:30
  • 13
    The post in question seems to have disappeared again.
    – Script47
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 2:00

4 Answers 4

28

I've done it too. I can't find the specific examples, but I can give the timeline of how it happened:

  • Robert Harvey and I were basically the only two mods making decisions to close down overly-subjective questions, this wasn't making us popular (fun fact, he and I developed what later became the 'historical lock' by editing that phrasing into the post).

  • Someone came to meta in a really bad mood taking issue with something I'd done. I don't think it was even related to closing, I think it was deleting a non-answer.

  • I mustered every ounce of word smithing I could muster in order to berate and humiliate the person in full view, without technically violating any policy. I was really pissed, tired, and sad.

... the post started getting up-voted like crazy. My better senses kicked in, and I deleted it. What I wrote wasn't something that should be coming from an emissary of the site.

It went through a few different cycles. I changed the wording, but that didn't fix the comments under it that were now totally out of context, and now I had this post that had lots of upvotes that was totally different than what folks had voted on previously, and I just deleted it.

I'm pretty sure I emailed Jeff or (at the time) possibly Sam (Waffles) or Rebecca, I don't think Shog yet worked here. I never followed up on it. My guess is, they just disassociated it for me and moved on.

But in any event, I think evidence of someone trying to just fix a mistake can sometimes look an awful lot like someone trying to hide one, but there's no real hiding on this kind of platform. Try and give folks, especially those that do a lot of emotionally-intense work, the benefit of the doubt.

In this particular case? I think it's pretty benign.

10
  • 4
    Thanks for your input, Tim. Considering the other answers I’ve gotten, I agree that there wasn’t anything wrong in this case :-)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 12:37
  • 4
    It should probably be noted that in your case, you made changes to your post between deletion and undeletion. At least in the screenshot above, there appears to be no change made to the post. It's just a confusing delete - undelete cycle.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 16:12
  • 5
    @YvetteColomb Well, it's confusing to me looking at it after the fact (because you don't get context in that situation), so, yes it is confusing, and, even after knowing more context, it's still confusing to me why it was deleted and undeleted with no changes. In my opinion you should leave something deleted unless you are going to make changes to it. If it's really that important to some discussion that you need to undelete it, okay, whatever. But then leave it undeleted. The unnecessarily confusing part is the repetition of the act, especially in such short order.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 18:23
  • 1
    This is such a human answer. Love it. How often do people publicly admit to mistakes with such grace?
    – Stewart
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 20:11
  • @YvetteColomb Shog was talking about wrong answers that serve as obstacles. If that applies to your post, delete it, like I said before. If for some reason it needs to be undeleted, then undelete it and leave it undeleted. Like I said, the confusing part is the fact that this happened multiple times, and that there was no change to the post between deletions. I'm not really that interested in what you do, but other people probably are because you are an elected moderator and so your actions are going to be in the spotlight, especially for those whom your actions directly affect.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 19, 2018 at 0:08
  • 8
    @YvetteColomb: I like your answer on my question, but your comments on several places are becoming increasingly aggressive towards me. I'm interested in what happens on SO/meta. If that happens to involve you, that's not my fault. I'm active on meta around the same time you seem to be, so we are going to run into each other. If you, as a mod, do something I find to be un-mod-like, I am going to call you out on it. Just as I would any other mod. If you write a meta answer I disagree with, I am going to comment, just like I would on any other mod's answer.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 19, 2018 at 6:14
  • 8
    No, @YvetteColomb. We just disagree a lot. This isn’t a personal vendetta. We can disagree as adults.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 19, 2018 at 9:27
  • 6
    All the evidently deleted comments here are ironic
    – user773737
    Commented May 19, 2018 at 14:18
  • 1
    @Cerbrus Stop answering your own comments. Haha, what a good laugh that was Commented May 20, 2018 at 12:32
  • 4
    There used to be a reply here stating the comments were undeleted, but apparently they're gone again. This is pretty similar to what the question was about. Comments being deleted > undeleted > deleted again. I still think that's weird.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 12:35
26

This feels kinda passive-aggressive.

But whatever. Let's hit it head on!

If you're not sure of your actions, don't write an answer (yet). Discuss it with your colleague moderators, first.

I have my own opinions. My colleagues have their own opinions. Other users have their own opinions. I'd rather hear folks' honest opinions and be free to express my own than be forced to parrot the voice of a committee and pretend that I'm listening.

I'd rather try to convince you that I'm right and fail than know going in that I don't agree with the words I'm writing and secretly hope they fail to persuade.

If your answer is met with negativity, don't delete it. Own up to it, learn from it.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Sometimes, I don't have all the information; sometimes, I just made the wrong call. Sometimes, I think I'm right for years... And then someone convinces me otherwise. It takes a prohibitive ego to leave a wrong, unhelpful or misleading answer up once you know it is a stumbling block.

For the record: over the past decade I've deleted 393 answers across these sites, with an even 256 of those on Stack Overflow, 92 on MSE, and 17 here on MSO, with scores ranging from -16 to 188.

I'll leave you with this screenshot...

5 delete/undelete cycles

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  • 24
    You were just testing the delete/undelete functionality, weren't you?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 4:28
  • 15
    I honestly have no idea what I was thinking there.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 4:28
  • 2
    You don't think it's a cause for concern the same way too many edits on a single post could be someone either iterating on their post (OK) or bumping it (not OK)? Or if it becomes a pattern across multiple posts (which this doesn't appear to be a case of, but still something that could happen)?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 4:32
  • 1
    It could be, @BoltClock - I mean, the record holders for most delete/undelete cycles on a post are Nicael and Jeremy, so that kinda says... something? OTOH, this is pretty rare and pretty benign.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 4:36
  • 2
    For a more convincing argument, you should also include the timestamps of those deletions (the part on the right that you chose to cut out :) )
    – cs95
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 4:46
  • 27
    I didn't put that screenshot there to convince anyone, @coldspeed. I put it there to brag.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 4:54
  • 1
    Well, colour me impressed then!
    – cs95
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 4:54
  • 6
    TRIVIA: the record for the most self-deletions on a single post, network-wide, ever, is 21 held by the two people mentioned in a previous comment. The runner-up is some math person. There are well under a thousand posts with more'n 2 self-deletions in their history network-wide. I'm not overly worried about this as a general pattern.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 4:55
  • 14
    Interestingly, the answer that made me decide to post about it has now been deleted again. Sure, it's not necessarily "wrong" or "bad", but I hope you can see it sends a bit of a weird message when one repeatedly deletes and undeletes their own (meta) answer. If the moderator that inspired me to write this sees this, and thinks "Oh, in the future I'll consider how this action looks to (normal) users", I consider it a win. That's all I wanted, to raise awareness that "flip-flopping" like that can be perceived as less harmless than it probably is.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 5:32
  • 8
    For future reference, it's totally fine to ask a question here that is essentially, "this looks weird, please explain it?" @Cerbrus. I disagree pretty strongly with your suggestions though, hence this answer.
    – Shog9
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 15:07
  • @Shog9: At least it makes for a more interesting answer than "Eyup". ;-) Considering the other answers I've gotten, I'm quite satisfied. Just haven't decided what answer to accept, yet.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 15:09
9

It's ok to delete downvoted posts.

Should I delete my own downvoted answer?

Upon receiving a downvote,

  1. I review my answer and ask myself, "is there something I can improve here"? If there is, and I have time, I improve it.

  2. If I no longer feel my answer provides anything useful to future readers of the question, I delete it.

  3. If I still think my answer is useful and accurate, I laugh heartily at the poor deluded sucker who just wasted a downvote, and move on.

I went through the network recently and deleted dozens of downvoted posts, on main and meta sites. I cleaned house. I did not delete questions with answers on them, I did delete some upvoted questions that had no answers, that were closed. I consulted mods, via flags on each site I was tidying up on and some of the mods let me know which were worthwhile keeping around. I did all of this in consultation with Tim Post. It was Shog9 and some other users who were cleaning up their posts who inspired me to do the same.

I also requested to have two posts disassociated from my account, which was actioned by the Community Managers. So if there's issues with this, then it's something to be asked of the Community Team, as they approved it and I did it with consultation with them.

To answer your question.

There's a moderator that (imo, too often) deletes and then undeletes their own answers on Meta. Often, this mostly happens without any edits made while the answer is deleted.

If I delete and undelete a post, it's usually to give myself space to edit it, as I can see it needs improvement. I am busy in my life and don't always have the time to address what is needed in an edit immediately.

This is the post that was deleted and undeleted numerous without being unedited. And let's be clear it has been deleted a total of 3 times.

It was temporarily undeleted, as it was being discussed elsewhere and this discussion came up twice - so it was undeleted twice.

As you can see in this professional image -> undeleted when being discussed -> deleted 3 times -> last time was after sleeping.

enter image description here

I don't know what the reasoning behind it is, but it looks somewhat unsavory. It seems like an emotional action instead of a rational one.

It was temporarily undeleted, as it was being discussed elsewhere. It was a logical decision.

(or maybe I'm just completely misinterpreting what's going on)

Yes. Yes, you are completely misinterpreting what's going on.

It comes across as if the moderator is trying to hide something, or just can't make up their mind.

I'm not trying to hide something. I've stated the facts above. I can make up my mind. FWIW I've bought real estate and lived in it for many years, decided upon academic paths, requiring years of commitment and have held to those. So yes, I can make up my mind. I can make a decision and stick to it.

Sure, that can happen once, but it's starting to become a pattern (Multiple different answers / questions)

This is not true. It happened once. A pattern, by definition, is something that repeats or recurs.

My suggestion:

If you're not sure of your actions, don't write an answer (yet). Discuss it with your colleague moderators, first. If your answer is met with negativity, don't delete it. Own up to it, learn from it.

Thank you for your guidance Cerbrus, I took your advice and waited to reply.

I do seek a lot of guidance, from the mod team, Shog9 and Tim Post.

I own up for every mistake I make on this site and ever had. I'm open and honest, but I do make mistakes. I do work hard to serve the community, which of late has been challenging, due to the state of flux in the site.

A better way to ask your question.

This post could easily have been:

Hey Yvette: I've noticed you were un/deleting this post without editing it? Is this a pattern? I'm wondering why you did that?

It's asking for clarification and facts without using slurs. Isn't that nicer than casting accusations that my intentions are disingenuous or I'm emotional and not rational?

p.s. I will take the advice of this answer and post a comment when I delete a downvoted post, I believe is not useful, from now on, so >10K users can see why.

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  • 7
    Thank you for your answer. While I don't agree with all of it, this alleviates up most of my concerns.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 9:04
  • 16
    Just for the record: I'm not accusing you of being unable to make up your mind. I'm not claiming you don't discuss things. I'm not saying that you don't think. All I am saying is that unexplained actions sometimes can lead one to think a step was skipped. If that's not the case, great! Again, best intentions, here.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 9:07
  • 6
    @Cerbrus I addressed every word in your post, as you wrote it. I suggest you take your own advice and Own up to it, learn from it.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 9:10
  • 6
    Okay, the "It comes across as" part is not an accusation. I'm sorry if it reads like one, that was never my intention.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 9:11
  • 3
    @IamtheMostStupidPerson sorry I'm a little confused by your question.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 9:16
  • 1
    @IamtheMostStupidPerson oh yes this answer applies to any user. Mod or not mod. Mods come under more scrutiny due to the special privileges they've been given.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 9:24
  • 11
    Okay, the "It comes across as" part is not an accusation. I'm sorry if it reads like one, that was never my intention. then maybe you need to take more time to consider what you want to say and how? ;) It totally, unambiguously read like one even with only a very fleeting knowledge of the past weeks' Meta discussions.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 9:32
  • 2
    @Pekka웃: Then I hope the line I just added removes some of the ambiguity.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 9:38
  • 14
    Personally, to make this question look like a good-faith Meta contribution I would remove the insinuations entirely and replace them with something like "I don't know what the reasoning behind it is, but it looks weird and I'd like it cleared up." and get rid of (or edit) the advice at the bottom because it makes it look like I actually am completely sure of what I described as mere possibilities in the paragraph above. By accident, I'm sure. ;) The rest of the question looks fine to me.
    – Pekka
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 9:51
  • 1
    @Pekka웃 and all moderators, OP hide the who is the moderator, he doesn't want to make trouble to Shog. He asked this question because he loves this sites. He want to make more better place this. But many moderators try to find mistakes of OP's questions, why is that? Because of he find some behavior of another moderator? If this delete/undelete part done by normal user all these moderators won't act like this... My English is bad, so my words may look like rude, but I don't want to rude, I just feel that some moderators replies are not good in this post Commented May 18, 2018 at 11:19
  • 30
    In this particular post I was actually writing a comment when you deleted it. Then you undeleted it and I started writing a comment again, and then you deleted your answer again before I could finish it :-( I appreciate that you're free to delete your own posts as you see fit, but to be honest it is quite annoying on meta. I don't think that using the "delete/edit/undelete" cycle as a matter of habit is good form on meta, it's kind of like shouting "hold all discussion please!" in the middle of a discussion. Commented May 18, 2018 at 11:38
  • 26
    I also don't think that deleting downvoted posts on meta as a matter of habit is a good idea, either. Downvoted posts and their associated discussion are often useful on meta (this is different from the main site). An example might be this answer. clearly the community at large disagrees with what I wrote. Keeping the answer adds value to clarify what exactly the community considers rude, and deleted it would be a loss. Meta is a conversation, and removing parts of the conversation later on seems unhelpful to me. Commented May 18, 2018 at 11:44
  • 2
    Sure, not a problem @YvetteColomb; pretty sure I've done it myself on a few occasions over the years. It's just that the language of your answer – as well as the phrasing of this question – suggests you frequently do this. I don't know if that's actually the case as I don't visit meta that often these days, but I just wanted to say that doing it frequently probably isn't a good idea. Commented May 18, 2018 at 14:17
  • 2
    @Carpetsmoker I don't usually delete and undelete like that. Sometimes I will delete, edit and undelete, but not like I did with that answer. The language used is unfortunate as the question reads like a malignant indictment and makes exaggerated claims.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 14:43
  • 7
    Power to you @YvetteColomb I don't know how you deal with this level of scrutiny. Having to answer to folks for such trivial actions seems to be quite a burden. Programmers can be an obsessive lot, and it is tough if you have to answer to us. I hope that you have some healthy ways of dealing with the stress that this kind of attack no doubt brings. Is there a button somewhere that orders a bottle of wine for a moderator? That's healthy stress management, right? Good luck...
    – Joshu's Mu
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 21:32
5

Yes, repetitively deleting and undeleting can be frustrating (mod or no mod), and mods should lead by example, but I don't think this behaviour should be addressed in the way it has been.

There certainly are valid reasons to delete and then undelete your answer, in my opinion, especially when your answer has been met with negativity. I think it's a valid step in between to improve your answer.

The workflow I imagine in these situation is something like this:

Post a well-intended and well thought-out answer on meta -> get downvotes and negative comments -> see the answer isn't interpreted as you intended it -> delete it -> revise it -> undelete it.

This is a good thing, in my opinion. If your answer isn't being interpreted as you intend it, or has other serious issues, deleting it temporarily while you revise it is appropriate. This keeps other people from getting the wrong impression, and keeps your answer from accumulating downvotes. For questions on main, I sometimes even advise people to do this, to prevent the question from being closed and downvoted while it's being improved.

Temporarily deleting the post also grants yourself the time to review the edit and think it out before you post it. This keeps people from making the same mistake twice.

You can also temporarily delete your answer if you're not sure you're actually right, and want to verify it and discuss it with peers. Of course, not posting it in the first place if you're not sure is better, but I often think back, and start to doubt, especially after receiving downvotes. After verifying, I can undelete without making any edits.

Of course, I'd rather have everyone word everything perfect in their first attempt, write perfect answers, and generally be perfect. But that's just not a reasonable thing to demand. Even for community-elected moderators.


A general piece of advice for people deleting their answers though: comment first, with your intention. Then us >10Kers can see why you're doing this. If you're intending to undelete, we might keep the reply we were just writing stored somewhere, while if you keep it deleted, our replies are no longer of use. We can also decide if, when we feel the same, we need to write up our own answer, or not.

P.S.: I wasn't happy too when I wanted to write a comment about one of these answers, and found out it was deleted. But I think it's a good thing this mod is trying to improve her posts, and be more involved on meta. I think we should be welcoming and understanding towards that.

11
  • 4
    I agree with most of this answer, but there’s one detail: the answer isn’t getting edited between the multiple deletion toggles... For me, that raises an eyebrow.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 7:54
  • 3
    Very good advice - comment first. Will do that from this point on.
    – user3956566
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 8:00
  • @YvetteColomb for my own posts I prefer editing these explaining the reason for deletion (maybe you even can find examples of these in my own post history here at MSO). This way explanation is easier to find for 10kers than if it was in comments and additionally it makes for easier to understand revisions history (comments aren't reflected in it which makes for seemingly cryptic deletion entries)
    – gnat
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 12:34
  • @gnat can you give me an example?
    – user3956566
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 13:29
  • 2
    @YvetteColomb it's difficult to me to search for deleted answers here being under 10K. However I could find some examples at other site where rep lets me search with deleted:1 - since you can't see over there here are pair of screen shots demonstrating how it looks like: i.sstatic.net/hZWpq.png (see "deletion explanation" notes at the top of the posts)
    – gnat
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 13:41
  • @Cerbrus ^^^ see above - I edit the answers I delete and this indeed makes revisions history easier to understand
    – gnat
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 14:27
  • Inconsequential at this point, but just a heads up: "is trying to improve her posts" gives a really big hint to who the mod is (unfortunately), and I don't think that is intended.
    – Passer By
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 18:42
  • 3
    @PasserBy While Cerbrus was trying to keep Yvette "anonymous", I think at least 80% of the readers knew who he was talking about. I'm thinking about opening up a meta post about when to disclose the name, and when not to, because in this case, it was a bit silly to borderline passive agressive to not name her, since everyone knew who he was talking about.
    – Erik A
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 18:52
  • 1
    I was "borderline passive aggressive" by trying not to call out a specific moderator? How does that work?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 19:37
  • 1
    @Cerbrus Well, it can feel like discussing something behind someones back. It can be considered rude or passive-agressive to not name someone, and not notify them, while clearly discussing their actions. I think that provoked the tone of the answer by Travis J, in part, and that's why he explicitly did name the person in question. Anyway, disclosure of names on meta is a subject I'd like to address in a separate discussion, since I think it's a difficult subject and done wrong often in both directions (not disclosing a name when you should, and disclosing a name when you shouldn't).
    – Erik A
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 19:43
  • 2
    @ErikvonAsmuth: I agree that there's a bit of a dilemma in naming vs anonymous. I figured this would be the safer choice, as naming the moderator could've come across as some kind of grudge / shaming post. Maybe I was wrong, maybe not.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 19:46

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