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The original question that I raised is here:

Mongo Query that always returns zero documents

Admittedly, my use-case is slightly non-standard, but it's not too large a stretch of the imagination that one might require such a query. Certainly, mathematically it seems reasonable that if an 'all' object exists, then it is neat and symmetrical that a 'none' object exists.

It is certainly true that the question for which this is marked as a duplicate is not related to my question in any way:

Mongo db conditional query

Once I started querying about this, the user's comments started at condescending and moved on to disrespectful (this was originally in the comments, until I mistakenly moved it to chat), screenshot below:

enter image description here

What action should I take in this case? I feel incredibly under-valued as a user, I am very surprised that a user with this amount of power would display such disprespect to my legitimate technical protests in this scenario. Realistically, I would just like my question re-opened such that other people who might have a different view, or appreciate the architecture within which I am working can have a chance to answer. Not to be told by a user with power over me that I am too stupid for my use-case to be taken seriously.

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    Neil isn't a moderator. Moderators have a diamond symbol next to their name.
    – Daedalus
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 10:25
  • 1
    Hope I got what you intend to mean right. Let me know if my edit is not what you meant
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 10:27
  • 2
    @Imran Have you tried flagging the offending comments?
    – Daedalus
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 10:30
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    I don't know mongodb but that question looks valid to me and deserves a dedicated answer
    – Adelin
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 10:33
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    @Daedalus I did flag the offending comments, but it was non-obvious to me that taking the action of flagging would help my question be opened up to potential answers. It feels like more that it might 'punish' the offender, but that is not really my intention. I'd rather know if it is legitimate for me to re-post the question, given that I believe this high-reputation user's behavior to be incorrect.
    – Imran
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 10:34
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    I don't necessarily find the exchange there rude, more factual and to the point but YMMV. The problem with your code example is that the use case isn't clear. I would say it is too minimal. Your question needs an edit to clarify the context in which you need this. Due to such edit it ends-up in the re-open queue from which it is handled by some fresh pair of eyes. Or you bring it to meta, blaming users in the process. All this will end well.
    – rene
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 10:35
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    If this isn't a duplicate, it deserves a dedicated answer. If the answer is what you want is not possible and/or a bad idea, think about this alternative, very well - that's the answer. So I've reopened it for you.
    – jpp
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 10:36
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    @Daedalus Perhaps you're correct that the intention of my post was a little ambiguous, even in my own mind. Realistically I am now happy that my question has been re-opened (and hence, I guess, more discoverable). I think I was nervous that if I edited it, then the same HR user would close it again, as he had not been particularly understanding of my initial protests
    – Imran
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 10:41
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    ...started at condescending and moved on to direct insult Honestly I cant find it.
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 10:41
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    possible duplicate?
    – gnat
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 10:44
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    @SurajRao "What I don't understand is how that is not sinking in for you". This to me reads approximately the same as "My answer is correct, your answer is incorrect and if you can't see that you are stupid". I had already attempted to explain my architectural reasons for needing such a construct, he then repeated his previous answer and suggested that I was not capable of understanding what he had sai.
    – Imran
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 10:44
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    It is making it harder, it is not preventing it. Please stop exaggerating the issue at hand.
    – rene
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 10:49
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    "I think I was nervous that if I edited it, then the same HR user would close it again" With the exception of actual moderators, who have a diamond by their name, a single user can only cast one vote to close on a question. If it gets reopened, the people who previously voted to close it cannot vote to close it again. Commented May 15, 2018 at 10:53
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    @Veljko89 (1) "who even cares what people write on damn internet, even on SO" -- Except that, on SO, we strive to do better than the "damn internet". (2) "anything that isn't helpful to you it's just noise and should be easily ignored." -- Note this could easily be read as an invitation to ignore the site rules (after all, folks often do not immediately get to see them as useful for themselves).
    – duplode
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 14:53
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    @Veljko89 Except that they closed my question, to my discredit I was not 100% aware of all the options open to me at the time of posting this meta. I thought I was basically stuck with this issue closed and I would be 'punished' doubly if I re-posted it, hence the meta. I am thankful to all the people who answered this meta presenting me with better options. That said, SO is a respectable site who I know puts a lot of effort into keeping the community civil. It is no unhealthy thing to discuss this behaviour, especially in the case of regular users like me who would be discouraged by this.
    – Imran
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 16:37

2 Answers 2

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I see several issues here:

Most importantly, the closure as a duplicate of Mongo db conditional query was an abuse of the dupehammer. Your question was not a duplicate of that question. In normal circumstances we might chalk this up to the user not having read your question properly (mistakes happen sometimes)... but in this case, we can see from his engagement with the question in chat that the user knew perfectly well what you were asking; it seems to me that he was clearly aware that his chosen dupe target was not a real duplicate.

For better or worse, the site gives gold tag badge holders the power to unilaterally close duplicates and only duplicates. The dupehammer is not supposed to be a tool to let gold badge holders close any question they don't like for any reason at all by marking it as a duplicate of some arbitrary vaguely-related question. Even if your question deserved to be closed (which it doesn't), the user should've cast a normal close vote and hoped that the question would accrue the 5 votes needed for closure, just like the rest of us have to do when we try to close questions.

Secondly, the user's technical reasoning seems pretty dubious. It's been ages since I worked with Mongo and I've thankfully forgotten almost everything about it, but I'd be amazed if it wasn't possible to construct a query that, at least for practical purposes, always returns no results, even if it's something hacky like checking for the existence of a key called keyIMadeUpWhoseWholePurposeIsToNotExistOnAnyDocument. And though your use case is valid (it's just a fact of life that sometimes you've got to slot some functionality into a system that demands you frame your logic as a database query, or a regex, or something along those lines, even when that's not the most natural way of doing things), the user doesn't seem to grasp that or be able to imagine why what you're doing might make sense.

Thirdly, the user has failed to provide any rationale for his claim that no solution is possible. While it's perfectly reasonable to answer that what a question is asking for is impossible, you should show your reasoning when doing so, or else there's no reason for anyone to believe you.

And finally, the user was frankly a bit of an ass to you, when you'd done nothing to deserve it. The user's "big gold badge" in no way guarantees that he's right or that he knows more than you, and if he is right then he should be able to articulate the reasoning for why rather than demanding that you trust his authority. The whole final comment to you was nothing but an arrogant refusal to back up his claims followed by what I'd at least call a clear expression of disrespect towards you, even if I wouldn't quite go so far as to call it a "direct insult" as you do in your Meta post here.

I'm sorry you got treated this way. This kind of condescension is never pleasant to start with, but I at least have some sympathy for it when it's coming from someone who is right on the merits of their arguments. Seeing you receive it, on the other hand, over a question that really was completely legitimate, from a user who seems to have just failed to grasp the motivation behind the question, is infuriating. In light of that, I admire the measured tone of your Meta post here.

FWIW, although I don't think the user's messages in chat quite rise to the point of deserving a word from the moderators, I think the abuse of the dupehammer does, and I'm about to raise a flag accordingly.

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    This reminds me of the classic "how can I name variables using strings" which comes up several times each week (or day) in [python] and probably many other tags. Yes, it's possible. But if you say it's a bad idea, explain why and/or give the alternative.
    – jpp
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 13:49
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    While I really like the tone there is one thing that I definitely don't like about the meta post and that is how it focuses on the user (blame if you like). Is it now correct to show the same behavior on Meta when someone has been an ass to you before?
    – rene
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 13:55
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    @rene I've deliberately omitted any mention of the user's name in this answer, and this isn't meant to be a sweeping judgement of their character; I'd never encountered them before today and for all I know their every other interaction on the site has been constructive and unproblematic. I'd rather say I'm focussing on behavior here, because that's what the question is about. Does discussing bad behaviour inevitably reflect at least a little badly on the user responsible for it? Yeah, probably - but I don't think there's anything I can do to avoid that while still addressing the question.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 14:00
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    I agree with the specific analysis of the particular case and the points that you describe: One may get the impression that the question was dupehammered because the gold-badge-user was a bit annoyed (maybe because he had a bad day, or just because he didn't grasp the intention). It's a dilemma: On the one hand, I think that someone with a mongo gold badge has made valuable contributions to the site. On the other hand, I tend to apply Hanlon's razor. (Yeah, ironically - obviously, it's not the "Hanlon" of the "Welcoming" blog post...)
    – Marco13
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 14:01
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    @rene In hindsight, I believe I did get a little too personal and judgemental. I think I was a little shocked at the way this had been treated and judged the user's character, rather than this specific behaviour. I have edited the post accordingly. Please let me know if you have further issue with the question as it stands now.
    – Imran
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 16:46
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    @Imran that is much appreciated. The last sentence can still use some work but overall, I'm happy enough.
    – rene
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 16:49
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    @rene I'd be inclined to defend that last sentence in the current version of Imran's post. Maybe it's uncharitable to the other user, but it's also pretty effective at succinctly conveying how Imran felt after receiving the chat messages that he shows. That's relevant information, I think, in the broader context of the currently ongoing conversation about being welcoming to new users.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 16:57
  • Fair enough. I'll concede.
    – rene
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 17:02
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Yes, they should

Of course they should be able (and allowed) to answer like this, and to close the question. There is a reason of why the dupehammer was introduced: It's necessary. There are far too many bad and duplicate questions. They have to be dealt with, quickly, in order to separate the wheat from the chaff and to prevent the site from drowning in crap. It's as easy as that.

... but should they?

So the question is not whether they should be able (or allowed) to act like this. The question is rather under which conditions they should actually do it.

And the answer to that might be: When they are reasonably sure that it's legitimate to close the question. The competence to make the right decisions here is based on the assumption that someone who has a gold badge is not a 'know-it-all', but a 'know-enough-to-recognize-crap-when-he-sees-it'.


You should try to imagine the situation: You know your stuff and are looking for nice, interesting, challenging questions that may be worth investing your valuable time in order to find and answer. And every day, dozens of questions are popping up, from people who simply did not try to google an answer, or read the documentation, or are simply too lazy or too stupid to figure out some basic stuff on their own.

But of course, one also has to see the other side: Someone has a reasonable question, posts it, and the question gets dupe-hammered - maybe garnished with a snarky comment. More generally, it may happen that a question is closed prematurely. It's clear that this can be frustrating, or be perceived as Not Very Welcoming1


If you think that closing the question is not justified, then you have several options:

  1. See whether the question can be improved

    In your case: There have been some comments, and comments are mainly intended for sorting things out, and request clarification. The information that has been fleshed out in the chat could be added to the question, to make clear that it is a legitimate one

  2. Vote for reopening the question

  3. Flag the comment

  4. Bring it up here on meta


From a technical standpoint: I'm not so familiar with mongo. The goal of your question seems to be a bit unusual, but may be justified along the lines that you explained in the chat. I think that it could be reasonable to reopen the question (maybe after an edit, as described above).


1: "Not Very Welcoming" might be a registered trademark of Stack Exchange, Inc.

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    In this era of Not Very Welcoming™ this answer cheered me up. Thanks for making my day.
    – rene
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 11:56
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    "There are far too many bad and duplicate questions" The dupehammer is just for duplicates, not "bad" questions.
    – TylerH
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 13:43
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    @TylerH That's right, and the fact that the dupehammer was probably not the right choice here was pointed out by Mark Amery : His answer is more specifically referring the the actual case. What I wanted to emphasize is that it's (unfortunately) often necessary to swing the dupehammer. The cases where it is used inappropriately (regardless of whether intentionally or accidentally) seem to be rare, and can be sorted out using the different levels of escalation that I described.
    – Marco13
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 13:50
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    At the time of posting I struggled to understand this user's behaviour. I was worried that perhaps users at this level were encouraged to close as many as possible in order to gain further reputation at this level (or otherwise increase within the gameification of the site). This answer is useful clarification, which I appreciate. I feel I should have followed 1, 2, 3 then 4 in order, which I did not do...
    – Imran
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 17:00
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    I am aware also that I am not a completely new user and as such a snarky comment on a legitimate dup might be forgivable! However, in this case I feel that I demonstrated calmly why I was in fact at least correct in that the question should be re-opened, yet I continued to be treated in the same manner. After this, my trust that this was a legitimate mistake ran out. Of course, I know understand why the 'dupehammer' exists, which is useful, but I feel it strayed out of the territory of legitimate mistake (at least in my mind) after that message exchange.
    – Imran
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 17:08
  • @Imran There is no technical (rep-based) encouragement to close questions, but only the intention to get rid of "bad" questions. The fact that the dupe-vote in this case has been inappropriate has now fortunately been sorted out in a civilized manner. (Even though Neil Lunn could have said a few words here as well, it's not necessary - after all, he's still only one of many users that may provide hopefully good answers to your hopefully good questions in the future)
    – Marco13
    Commented May 15, 2018 at 17:46

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