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I'm referring to my question here: Why does the greatest IEEE floating point representable number smaller than 1 differ from 1 by half a machine epsilon?

I was asking a genuine question and had an issue with the question title phrasing, which I later fixed. Despite this I got multiple downvotes after the fixes, clearly indicating the question was not well received since it does not have any code in it. Thing is I initially put a theory tag for that purposed but was edited out anyway, apparently another case that theory tags are not welcomed (why does this tag exist then?).

The question was quite an intersection between THEORY and PRACTICE - IEEE FP is something I thought was used in practice instead and so I asked on SO. Why is the community so hateful against people who post such questions? Is it because I'm low rating? The community is just so unwelcoming here.

Also, my flags for intervention didn't work out either. What could constructively be done to improve the situation instead of downvoting the question when one is genuinely trying to learn?

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    You're seriously asking why a site for programming questions isn't interested in getting non-programming questions? I would think the answer to that would be self-evident. And no, it's not because you have a low reputation score.
    – Servy
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 14:28
  • 1
    @Servey SO is dominated by programming questions - but that doesn't mean it is exclusively for non-programming, and nothing in the site policy enforces that either. There HAVE been questions with zero code and are still well received. But that was a few years back and times have changed? Where else do you suggest I ask the question then? Or do you prefer that I leave the community as a whole and not ask questions anymore? Commented May 11, 2018 at 14:30
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    The site is specifically for programming questions. Now you can have a programming question that doesn't involve code, sure. There certainly are questions about programming that don't have code in either the question, the answer, or both, but they're still questions about programming. Questions that aren't about programming off topic.
    – Servy
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 14:32
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    @Servy see this question stackoverflow.com/questions/3281237/… There is no code. The content is also about IEEE FP. The question has many upvotes. Question was many years ago, perhaps when the community was kinder. Where in the site policy does it say SO is only for programming questions? Commented May 11, 2018 at 14:33
  • 2
    @Servy How is my question not on-topic? There are existing tags INCLUDING tags with theory that is used over a thousand times. Does that mean all those questions are invalid then? I used the tags as appropriately as I could. You can't say I am off-topic if you can't explain why. Commented May 11, 2018 at 14:34
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    @oldselflearner1959 So are you actually asking the question in the context of software development? What is the software development problem that you're trying to solve by asking that question? Make that clear in your question, and then it's a question about software development, rather than a non-programming related question.
    – Servy
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 14:39
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    @Servy where else would you find IEEE FP used in any other places except software development? This topic is unique to software development. please don't try to change the premises of the original statement in the help center - there's nothing say it should be in the context of software development, although this is as valid, you shouldn't see it as mutually exclusive. And no, I'm not trying to insult anyone as you mentioned. But the level of passive aggression indicated here is unjustified. Commented May 11, 2018 at 14:41
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    @oldselflearner1959 So are you actually asking that question in the context of a programming problem? If so, then why say your question isn't a programming question? You are the one asserting your question isn't about programming. If your question is actually about a programming problem, then explain that programming problem, if it's not, then apparently your question isn't about software development. All that said, yes, floating point numbers are indeed used in contexts outside of programming. They can be programming questions, but they can also not be.
    – Servy
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 14:45
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    @Servy I see we have different definitions of non-programming - I see that as a lack of code and so "no programs related" content is in the post, but mostly meant it as a theory based question. It's easy to criticize or give downvotes: but what really other alternatives could be done? What do you suggest could be done better? What could downvoters do except to discourage people? Commented May 11, 2018 at 14:53
  • 4
    You mention flags. What flags did you use and why?
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 15:01
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    Note that 'vindictive' is abusive and unwelcoming. What did you do, or think you did, that might draw a revenge attack? Commented May 11, 2018 at 15:05
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    Well, the good intention is sometimes an unfortunate minority in the possible motivations of the question voters. There is also a site for Computer Science, cs.stackexchange.com . You can also check this. In my opinion, your question was unfairly downvoted, also I've experienced this many times.
    – peterh
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 22:15
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    @Servy I consider it as a signature of degeneration, if such a question is not considered a programming one. Programming is not only the lexical knowledge of the different APIs and language syntaxes.
    – peterh
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 16:32
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    The theory tag clearly says there are some questions which can be programming-agnostic and "questions that focus on theoretical aspects rather than practical implementations" Am I missing something here when my question exactly fits into this criteria? So why am I not allowed to use this tag if 1.5k+ questions have used it? Why is my question not welcomed by so many? I cannot find an answer except for the fact that people in this community do not like such questions. Commented May 12, 2018 at 17:30
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    @oldselflearner1959 User don't always comment when voting. This can be annoying when one wants to know the reason for the vote, but there are good reasons to not always comment when downvoting. See Why isn't commenting mandatory on downvotes, and why are ideas suggesting such shot down? Commented May 12, 2018 at 18:07

3 Answers 3

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To answer specifically your title question1

Why is the community so vindictive about non-programming questions?

Because we are a site for questions and answers about programming problems.

Let me quote the tour2 for you:

Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers. It's built and run by you as part of the Stack Exchange network of Q&A sites. With your help, we're working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming. (emphasis original)

Now, the What topics can I ask about here? page of the Help Center:

Stack Overflow is for professional and enthusiast programmers, people who write code because they love it. We feel the best Stack Overflow questions have a bit of source code in them, but if your question generally covers…

  • a specific programming problem, or

  • a software algorithm, or

  • software tools commonly used by programmers; and is

  • a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development

… then you’re in the right place to ask your question!
(emphasis original)

So... Non-programming questions are definitely a no-go.

Regarding your specific Stack Overflow question

Just because a question doesn't have code does not mean it's a "non-programming question" by any means. Code is not a requirement to ask questions here, depending on what you're asking, and we don't only accept debugging questions.

As far as I can tell, your question is a programming related question, it's just not a debugging question. However, being generally unknowledgable about your question, I can't say how well it meets our standards or guarantee that it is on-topic, so I can't say why you were downvoted. Really, only the downvoters can explain that. I've been wrong before about on-topicness of questions, so do take my thoughts on this matter with a grain of salt.

Regarding tags

Please keep in mind, just because we have a tag on the site doesn't mean that everything applicable to that tag is on-topic here. For example, just because we have the tag doesn't mean we'll help you troubleshoot a non-programming related issue you have, such as figuring out how to non-programmatically change a setting in Windows. Like wise, the tags and don't necessarily mean every question that could possibly fit under those tags is on-topic here.

Regarding Flags

Also, my flags for intervention didn't work out either.

There really isn't anything on your question that you could've flagged for. It wasn't closed or deleted, so that means the mods can't do anything for you. They can't say "Hey, no, bad users, don't downvote this!" because that's just not how the site works. The mods can't see who downvoted your question, and they can't revert the downvotes on your question.

So, with this in mind, there really wasn't anything for your flags to work on.


1 Based on the original title of the question.

2 By the way, you should give that a read when you've got a chance. It really explains a lot about our mission and goals, and you get a badge for it.

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  • To better answer your reply, I meant non-programming as in theory based questions without any code. By any measure I consider IEEE floating points to be something widely used and considered in practice, which is why I posted it on SO which has a greater practice orientation. Who is to decide what is on-topic? I used the tag in honest hopes that it is the right category and note that I don't see why my question still doesn't fit into theory. The lack of that tag seems to invite more hate towards my question. Commented May 12, 2018 at 17:19
  • If code is not a requirement to ask a question here, then I'm sure my question is on-topic. Tell me why is it not. compared to other sites, SO is more popular for IEEE floating point problems (with obvious reasons). that is why I posted my comments there. Commented May 12, 2018 at 17:20
  • Can you tell me why my question is not a "practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development"? Where else would you see such floating point considerations apart from software development? I feel that people do need to read more about the help center guide and think before they downvote so cursorily. In my case, I got a really good answer from an experienced user, which has helped me. If my question was that bad, how could this person answered it so clearly? Food for thought. Commented May 12, 2018 at 17:26
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    @oldselflearner1959 On your second comment: Kendra's answer appears to lean towards considering your question on-topic (as I do, FWIW).
    – duplode
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 4:13
  • @oldselflearner1959 As duplode said, I really do lean towards the question being on-topic. I can't give it a 100% "this is totally definitely on topic", but it looks on-topic to me. As for the "theory" part of things, I noticed you re-worded it. I really don't have a great way at the moment to re-word that part of my answer, so there's just a note there for now.
    – Kendra
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 12:58
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Why is the community so hateful against people who post such questions? Is it because I'm low rating? The community is just so unwelcoming here.

Please do not interpret downvotes as personal attacks. And I'm pretty sure that calling a community "hateful" is a good way of inviting more ire. As others have already suggested, many of the downvotes are likely due to the lackluster formatting. I personally found your question very hard to read, and that certainly fits the bill for downvoting.

What could constructively be done to improve the situation instead of downvoting the question when one is genuinely trying to learn?

Edit your question to be more clear and better formatted. You could also try to point out what you understand about that IEEE standard and then point how you arrived at the conclusion you're asking about.

As an aside, theory questions about IEEE floating point numbers seem on-topic on Computer Science as a "model of computation." Your question might even already be answered there.

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    What do you think can be improved in the formatting? That is the best way to represent floating points for me. SO does NOT have any latex functions, which I would have used. Can you give something more concrete? Why can't people comment on ways to improve instead of just giving a down votes? From my time here I have almost always a downvote leads to even more downvotes. Commented May 12, 2018 at 17:11
  • Can you go to my question and personally do an edit in a way that you find it fit for consumption? Can you do it in a clearer way? Commented May 12, 2018 at 17:21
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    I have to agree with @oldselflearner1959 here. There is no truly satisfactory solution for formatting math in SO. One might be willing to to approximate LaTeX/MathJax through a hand-picked combination of HTML and Unicode. The absence of that, however, does not justify a downvote.
    – duplode
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 4:10
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Mostly your question is a processor architecture one and not a programming question, it's mostly mathematics and electronics and is not really related to programming, where your second example Is the use of machine epsilon appropriate for floating-point equality tests? has a real programming goal.

Moreover your question is not really clear, it looks like typed in a hurry and messing with formatting:

Then the difference or ulp for 1.0 - k = 2^0 x 0.00000.....1.

isn't that the same as machine epsilon, where we have N epsilon = 2^0 x 1.000000....1 - 2^0 x 1.000 = 2^0 x 0.000.....1?

And lastly you don't look like asking a programming question but rather multiple processor mathematics questions:

Why is the correct value half?

Also, how would one calculate ulp for values other than 1.0?

I think (not acted on this question before seeing it here) downvoters found it hard to read, not really clear and as the downvote tooltip say: 'Not useful'.

Why is the community so vindictive about non-programming questions?

So that's not much about being non-programming, we may have an idea of someone writing yet another operating system for a class or whatever purpose and derive the use from the question, the main problem I see is the impression it gives while reading of hasty write and unlikely to bring things more useful than what the IEEE standard already states.

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  • "Mostly your question is a processor architecture one and not a programming question, it's mostly mathematics and electronics and is not really related to programming" -- Do we actually want to rule out questions about a standard for something (floating-point numbers) which is essentially about computation (and in a very concrete manner at that), and that is implemented by lots and lots of libraries and languages?
    – duplode
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 3:56
  • @duplode not when there's a programming goal behind, when it is pure theory and loosely related (let the answerer guess the goal behind) then extra care has to be put in the question, my point here is the down votes comes probably more from how the question is written than the question itself.
    – Tensibai
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 7:45
  • @duplode I didn't check again but the meta question is about the down votes, the question was not closed for off topic and I don't argue for it to be closed here
    – Tensibai
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 7:47
  • [1/2] The Meta question is partly about whether it is a problem to ask what the OP refers to as "theory" questions. That being so, even though it doesn't mention closing (for all we know, the OP might not even have been aware of our closing mechanics), it suggests the issue of whether the main site question is on-topic. In turn, your first paragraph, as I read it, casts a fair amount of doubt on it being on-topic ("Mostly your question [...] is not really related to programming").
    – duplode
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 8:08
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    [2/2] On the downvotes: there is a subtle, but important, difference between speculating why downvotes were cast and justifying the downvotes (or telling the OP to adjust they behaviour to the rationale of the downvoters, which in the end boils down to the same thing). In this case, I think the reasons you mention might explain them, but I don't think they are good reasons, and I wouldn't have downvoted for them (i.e. neither for asking at once two tiny, very closely related questions stemming from a common root, nor for not using math formatting given there is no proper way of applying it).
    – duplode
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 8:09
  • @duplode the formatting problem was not math formatting but the same sentence split on two paragraphs. My first sentence means the question is border line with math.se or computer engineering.se and was to clear up the problem is not the subject of floating point numbers. See the first revision of the question maybe as the title change has partly made my answer off. All in all I just pointed out what was things usually found 'bad' in question, the main cause still being 'not usefull' IMO
    – Tensibai
    Commented May 13, 2018 at 10:28
  • @Tensibai You gave 3 reasons to rationalize the downvotes. 1) not programming related - I strongly disagree since this is a fundamental in programming and I had further tagged it with theory. 2) poor formatting, which you strongly reiterated in your conclusion in the post - again I disagree. Could you suggest some formatting that is clearer than what has been done to make the question clearer? If so, please go to the question and make the edit to prove this. It's easy to criticize and not come up with any solutions. 3) Where else would you post this question on ''processor arithmetic"? Commented May 13, 2018 at 23:17
  • @oldselflearner1959 I may have said more explicitly what I meant, but you have enough answers around now. 1) this is not theory, this is a limitation of binary encoding. 2) see the second block quote, it's hard to tell if this is really two sentences or one badly SPLIT. But I won't go edit a question I don't find useful and I can't guess your reasons to ask it. 3) You're showing more effort in whinning than reading as I already named two site and what I find like bad faith makes me reluctant to give you any link to the sites as I'm not convinced you'll read their tour before asking.
    – Tensibai
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 6:32
  • @Tensibai [1/3] (1) "the same sentence split on two paragraphs" -- I hadn't thought of that when reading your post because, as I understand it, paragraph breaks are more a matter of copy editing than of "formatting". That is still no good reason for a downvote, though. (2) On other sites: (a) It is questionable whether Math.SE would be a more appropriate place. See this question on their Meta. (b) There is no "computer engineering" site. SE.SE wouldn't be a good fit, as this question is not about design and, so to say, too concrete --
    – duplode
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 17:24
  • @Tensibai [2/3] cf. the kind of questions under their [floating-point] tag. The Electrical Engineering site could be a good fit, though I insist on that not making the question off-topic here (The scopes of SE sites aren't disjoint).
    – duplode
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 17:25
  • @Tensibai [3/3] (3) "You're showing more effort in whinning than reading [...] what I find like bad faith" -- This is unnecessarily aggressive. Furthermore, it doesn't work all that well as a riposte, given that one of your suggestions is questionable, and the other is a site that doesn't exist.
    – duplode
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 17:25
  • @duplode indeed, I was thinking about scicomp.stackexchange.com (without any guarantee it would be on topic there, and I won't spend more time on this) but anyway I just state how I feel about why I won't go further, that's not agressive it's just a reason. Stop looping about on/off topic I already stated I don't find it off topic, just not useful in any manner without a goal behind.
    – Tensibai
    Commented May 14, 2018 at 21:29

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