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Niche technologies have a smaller pool of users, and a smaller yet pool of experts. That however shouldn't determine whether or not a question is on topic here. Sorry for the lengthy post, but let's look at a few examples here,


Tab Completion

I wanted to get what I was used to (Bash-like tab completion) out of TempleOS. Unlike with Vim, there isn't a better place to ask the question (vim.se), nor is it documented (:he wildcard).

Let's just go from the official descriptions of these,

  • source Vim: Vim - the ubiquitous text editor. Vim is a highly configurable text editor for efficiently creating and changing any kind of text.
  • source TempleOS User Skills Required * Knowledge of the C programming language.

TempleOS is certainly more of a tool for programmers than Vim and has a higher percentage of users that are programmers.


Missing source that was previously in core distribution

Recently it seems TempleOS moved a lot of packages (which are actually source code) outside of the core distribution. Unable to find them I asked a question, and got a great answer.


Adding on "supplementation features"

Now that I know TempleOS has broken apart many things from the main/CORE distribution, I need to understand how to install them. The question is primary how do I get those things into the Virtual Box image and add them to TempleOS. You can't exactly share-with-your-desktop, and it doesn't have a network stack. What is the supported mechanism for bringing in external data into the operating system? Or, do I have to rebuild an ISO with all the supplemental data I have and install that?

Sit for a second back and grok this. People closed this one for it being general computing hardware and software, yet none of the people that have voted to close it have any experience with TempleOS.


Kernel / OS version

Not knowing anything about the version of the operating system I was running, I wanted to figure it out. Despite the fact that it's undocumented in TempleOS, and there was no manual to read the question was closed. For comparison, both of these things are well documented with Linux and Python.


Open Source Operating system

I can understand not wanting to look for something because often times the pursuit can not be definitively answered. From the close reason,

"Questions asking us to recommend or find a book, tool, software library, tutorial or other off-site resource are off-topic for Stack Overflow as they tend to attract opinionated answers and spam. Instead, describe the problem and what has been done so far to solve it."

But that's not always the case. If something is targeting "user-programmers" and known to be open source, and you can't find the source or you can't find the repository -- and the user has looked for it, it seems perfectly acceptable to ask where that repository is. Like all things, it may change but it can be definitively answered at a point in time, and in my case, I contend it requires an expert to do so. Prove me wrong.

Not Just TempleOS

Ok, so at this point you may think the problem is just TempleOS, but it's not. I had the same problem with Forth, a language that has no ability to do networking when I asked for a networking library, or how I would do networking with FORTH. Use a language that predates IP; this is a real problem: though I can understand if you're a PHP user having no experience with this problem.

Let's review a comment from that thread,

I think there are some here on SO who cruise questions looking superficially for cases that don't match the "SO standard" and down-vote and/or vote to close without taking into account any special considerations. I suspect, in this case, they don't even know or use Forth. Here on SO I think there are maybe one or two users total who know enough Forth to answer anything but fairly trivial questions about it, unfortunately. – lurker Apr 2 at 11:10

What I would like to come out of this.

First, I would like my questions to be reopened, but that's not my expectation. I feel they're in good form, and moreover that they'll help out people that want to learn about TempleOS, or operating systems and older technologies (osdevers).

But, really we need to seriously consider how to restructure these close votes. Not to name drop -- this involves two diamond moderators and many others who do this habitually, some are even self-appointed unelected sheriffs of the wild-wild west that gloat about it in their profiles. It's easy to close things. It's hard to get them reopened. It's stressful for those asking questions to come in with this mentality. It requires a thick skin to come out to meta and bring these forward every time, and it makes the process needlessly exclusionary. Who wants to know how meta works, technically and culturally when they just want to ask tech questions? The current culture of the close brigade is one of non-rotating jurors who often come from a narrow walk and bring pretension and enjoy the power play of moderation.

Though I have solutions, I've left them all out so we're not voting on that here.

Summary of Activities

I learned a new operating system TempleOS catered to user-programmers. I created a tag for it. I asked 10 questions on a new technology and seeded the tag: 90% (9/10) questions were closed. The remaining question is one vote away. These were not typical questions either. I provided screen shots, text-translations, background information -- far exceeding the typical quality of question we get. Moreover, I have been contributing for almost 9 years on this site and am in the top 1% (of like four sites on the network) and have like 30,000 experience here. This is tremendously discouraging, and I hope we can change something.

Not a dupe

Why we're not customer support for [your favorite company]

TempleOS isn't a company. It's a free operating system in the public domain created for user-programmers. This is not applicable at all to this question.

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    Why is it so important to you to ask questions that you know are off topic, instead of going to a site where those questions are actually on topic? I'd think a user with as much experience on the site as you would know better than just just repeatedly ask questions you know you shouldn't, only to complain about questions you know merit closure getting closed. The fact that there are enough people voting to close questions to ensure every single off topic question gets closed doesn't mean it's a bad thing that some of them do get closed.
    – Servy
    Commented May 10, 2018 at 19:04
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    Note, that some of the questions you compare with are more than 6 years old. The culture has changed since then. I also have the feeling that you are comparing questions that are not equal. For example, "Kernel / OS version": 1) Asks to find version of linux source code when developing. 2) Asks about the version of a programming environment. 3) Asks about the version of the running OS. Not related to programming. Which version of Windows do I currently use would also be off-topic.
    – BDL
    Commented May 10, 2018 at 19:05
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    Consider this: I don't agree they're off topic. And, you haven't said where one should go to ask them: not that it has anything to do with whether or not they're on topic here, which I believe they are. Commented May 10, 2018 at 19:06
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    @user1114: I disagree unless you define the operating system as "software tools commonly used by programmers"
    – BDL
    Commented May 10, 2018 at 19:09
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    Unless the claim here is that the entire OS is an IDE... yeah it seems like this is on the line at best. Commented May 10, 2018 at 19:11
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    A brief reply: Just because a question hasn't been closed yet does not mean it's on-topic here. You start with a wrong premise. From a wrong premise everything can follow; it is just useles for a logical conclusion. Commented May 10, 2018 at 19:15
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    Another problem with most of the TempleOS questions is the way how they ask the question. Although the topic itself could be on-topic, asking "Where do I find the documentation to do X" is off-topic > request for off-site resource. "How do I do X" could be on-topic.
    – BDL
    Commented May 10, 2018 at 19:19
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    @EvanCarroll So you're telling me that you think that resource requests are on topic here? You've got questions closed for that exact reason, so I'm assuming that you're aware that those questions are not actually on topic. Your statement that you wish questions were on topic, even though you know they are off topic, doesn't change the fact that you asked those questions even knowing they are off topic. If you want what is on topic here to change, then propose a change on meta (after doing your research because lots of people have requested questions like that be allowed).
    – Servy
    Commented May 10, 2018 at 19:22
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    @EvanCarroll would you consider TempleOS questions to fall under "software tools commonly used by programmers; and is a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development"
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented May 10, 2018 at 19:23
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    You have been on Stack Overflow for four times as long as I have and have six times as much rep as I have. You should know not to post such blatantly off-topic questions. If you had been a new user, you would have likely gotten a question ban for this. Commented May 10, 2018 at 19:27
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    @RobertColumbia, Servy, ryanyuyu: I don't think that accusations to the op have any value in this discussion. I tend to say that these things are border-line rude. Can we please discuss the matter at hand without derailing into these niceties?
    – BDL
    Commented May 10, 2018 at 19:31
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    Asking me to answer that is slightly unfair -- it's a highly compound question. TempleOS was useful for me to understand a past generation of Operating Systems, like the Commodore 64 which predate my own experiences. It was a tool for that, and it was designed that way for me to become a "user-programmer". Asking me if it's practical is rather pointless. It's somewhat more practical than ASP Classic, VBScript, Excel, and crackme challenges all of which are on topic here. Commented May 10, 2018 at 19:32
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    @BDL: I consider high-rep users asking apparent off-topic questions an actual problem and in some way much more rude than users pointing out this fact. That said: they indeed do have a point. Commented May 10, 2018 at 19:36
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    Just for the sake of argument I reread all of your questions replacing TempleOs by iOS/Linux/Windows, just as I did when close-voting them. Didn't make them on-topic. And as for your last comment. A tag is never on-topic. Questions are, or not. Really, to me the problem is not that TempleOs is a niche, I guess there are more niches. There is no connection between "niche-ness" and question acceptance. Commented May 10, 2018 at 19:39
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    @ErikvonAsmuth well, computers are tools commonly used by programmers, yet I don't see anyone rushing to ask "why my pc doesn't boot". The entire thing should be read as a double conditional statement.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 10, 2018 at 20:42

2 Answers 2

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The thing you're having difficulty understanding is that Stack Overflow does allow some questions about tools and operating systems. However, these questions must be about either programming tools (IDEs, compilers, etc.), tools that non-programmers could use but are primarily/frequently used by programmers (Git, Vim, etc.), or something of the kind.

Just because it happens under an operating system that's open source does not make it a valid Stack Overflow question.

Given that, let's walk down this list example by example:

Tab Completion

I wanted to get what I was used to (Bash-like tab completion) out of TempleOS. Unlike with VIM, there isn't a better place to ask the question (vim.se), nor is it documented (:he wildcard)

Vim is a tool primarily used by programmers, so questions about its operation are allowed (though vim.se is the preferred place). PowerShell is arguably a tool used primarily by programmers. While non-programmers could use it, most people who do are programmers or IT personnel.

TempleOS's shell is just... TempleOS's shell. Any user of TempleOS could have such a question; it's not specific to programmers. Unless you're saying that only programmers are users of TempleOS.

Missing source that was previously in core distribution

Recently it seems TempleOS moved a lot of packages (which are actually source code) outside of the core distribution. Unable to find them I asked a question, and got a great answer.

Instructions on how to install programming tools and environments are on-topic.

As I understand it, After Egypt is just a regular utility for the OS, not a programming tool or environment. As such, instructions on installing it or any other generic utilities are off-topic.

Adding on "supplementation features"

Now that I know TempleOS has broken a part many things from the main/CORE distribution, I need to understand how to install them. The question is primary how do I get those things into the Virtual Box Image and add them to TempleOS. You can't exactly share-with-your-desktop, and it doesn't have a Network Stack. What is the supported mechanism for bringing in external data into the operating system? Or, do I have to rebuild an ISO with all the supplemental data I have and install that?

Sit for a second back and grok this, people closed this one for it being general computing hardware and software yet none of the people that have voted to close it have any experience with TempleOS.

That's because it is general computing software. The task you're asking about is not specific to programmers working in TempleOS in any way. As such, it's off-topic for Stack Overflow.

The Windows 10 feature question... that one is highly debatable. That sounds like it ought to be on Super User.

Kernel / OS version

Not knowing anything about the version of the operating system I was running. I wanted to figure it out. Despite the fact that it's undocumented in TempleOS, and there was no manual to read the question was closed. For comparison, both of these things are well documented with Linux and Python.

One question is about getting the version of the Linux kernel from the source tree; that's something programmers do. The next asks about getting the version of Python from within Python; that's something programmers do.

You asked about getting TempleOS's version from the shell. That's something users of TempleOS do; it is in no way specific to programmers.

Open Source Operating system

I can understand not wanting to look for something because often times the pursuit can not be definitively answered. From the close reason,

"Questions asking us to recommend or find a book, tool, software library, tutorial or other off-site resource are off-topic for Stack Overflow as they tend to attract opinionated answers and spam. Instead, describe the problem and what has been done so far to solve it."

But that's not always the case. If something is targeting "user-programmers" and known to be open source, and you can't find the source or you can't find the repository -- and the user has looked for it, it seems perfectly acceptable to ask where that repository is. Like all things, it may change but it can be definitively answered at a point in time, and in my case, I contend it requires an expert to do so. Prove me wrong.

Both of those questions are asking for off-site resources. Both of those questions should be closed.


I had the same problem with Forth, a language that has no ability to do Networking when I asked for a networking library, or how I would do networking with Forth.

And we don't allow questions asking for off-site resources, as previously indicated. And if it were just "how I would do networking with Forth", that's simply too broad.


This is not a matter of "niche technologies"; it is a matter of poor questions.


It seems to me that you're trying to use TempleOS as the "programming boat meme". That is, you're effectively trying to claim that everything that happens on TempleOS, every kind of use of the operating system, is programming.

That is absurd. I don't care if all uses of TempleOS involve C. It's not "programming" to ask the OS what its version is; that's use of the OS. It doesn't matter how the OS coughs up that version number. Even if it actually goes and reads its own source code to get the version number, you're still performing a user operation, not a programming task.

TempleOS doesn't get to exempt itself from our rules because of its interface.

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  • "VIM is a tool primarily used by programmers" what percentage of VIM's users are programmers. It's a text-editor. Certainly not all of them. What percentage of TempleOS's users are programmers? It explicitly requires you to be a programmer: "User Skills Required * Knowledge of the C programming language." templeos.holyc.xyz/Wb/Doc/Requirements.html How is that "not a tool for programmers?" You got a lot about what Temple OS is, have you ever even used it? Commented May 10, 2018 at 23:21
  • "You asked about getting TempleOS's version from the shell. That's something users of TempleOS do; it is in no way specific to programmers." the TempleOS kernel is released with the operating system. That's really splitting hairs. The chosen answer, the one I provided, actually shows that -- the variables are defined in the kernel's source files. Commented May 10, 2018 at 23:27
  • @EvanCarroll: Are you using that programming language to program? And no, that's not a rhetorical question. If you're using a programming language for non-programming duties (like executing commands on an OS), that doesn't make it a programming task. Commented May 10, 2018 at 23:27
  • No. I'm using it to program. I want to learn how the Oracle works. That's why the Temple is there. I want to see the code. I want to communicate with it myself. None of this is documented, but it's in every video and news article. I'm an inquisitive programmer simply doing the programmer thing. Commented May 10, 2018 at 23:28
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    @EvanCarroll: If your question had been for any other operating system, it would be off topic. Why is TempleOS special? Because it's Open Source? We have plenty of open source operating system questions that are off topic. Because it uses C somewhere? So what? Bash and other shell scripting languages are Turning complete, and not every question that does shell scripting is appropriate for SO. Commented May 10, 2018 at 23:30
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    @EvanCarroll: "I'm using it to program. I want to learn how the Oracle works." That's not programming; that's learning about how a program works. It's not the same thing at all. Commented May 10, 2018 at 23:32
  • This is your argument. My argument is that it wouldn't be off topic if it was any other operating system so I showed you an example where they ask the same question on Linux. Your response is that the version requested on Linux is pertaining to the kernel. So you're hanging your hat on there being a difference between the kernel and the operating system -- that's not so. They're versioned the same... Commented May 10, 2018 at 23:33
  • But even if they weren't versioned the same, in order to ask an informed question you must know how to collect the information for the question. If I want to ask a question about how my version of TempleOS is packaged, I'll need to be able to provide some information in my question. I needed a starting a point. I needed to know how my educational tool, for programmers, was versioned so I could ask a question about that educational tool. Commented May 10, 2018 at 23:34
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    @EvanCarroll: "Your response is that the version requested on Linux is pertaining to the kernel." No, my response is that it's pertaining to a specific piece of source code, a specific source tree. That is, given this block of source code, how do you tell what version it is. That's different from "I'm in the OS shell; how do I get the version?" Commented May 10, 2018 at 23:34
  • Why is that different when the OS shell itself, gets the version from the kernel source tree itself which is shipped with the OS? (Must be hard to argue this case when you don't use the software, so I do somewhat pity the situation you've put yourself in) Commented May 10, 2018 at 23:34
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    @EvanCarroll Regarding VIM: voted the 5th most popular development environment according to the latest SO developer survey (insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/…). It was even ranked higher the previous years. VIM was written for programmers. Commented May 11, 2018 at 5:20
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    What does that have to do with anything? I use Vi. It's useful. It's a tool "used by programmers, so questions about its operation are allowed." But it's also not used just by programmers. It has objective value for anyone who wants to edit text. TempleOS has almost no value for anyone "except" programmers, and as I said actually assumes you know how to program (unlike VIM). Commented May 11, 2018 at 5:24
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    Just to be clear I'm responding to "tool primarily used by programmers" which isn't referring to the amount of gross programmers that use the tool, but the percent of programmers out of the pool of people that use tool -- that ratio is higher with TempleOS. Commented May 11, 2018 at 5:26
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    @EvanCarroll "tool primarily used by programmers" which isn't referring to the amount of gross programmers that use the tool, but the percent of programmers out of the pool of people that use tool -- that ratio is higher with TempleOS - That's an oversimplification. If I (a programmer) write a tool that allows me to draw stick figures of unicorns, and I am the only user of that tool, then it's vacuously true that 100% of users of the stick-figure-unicorn-tool are programmers, but it should be obvious that it's not what is meant by "software tools commonly used by programmers". Commented May 12, 2018 at 2:29
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    @ModusTollens remember that that survey is biased, it doesn't have external validation due the respondent being self-selected. Vim wasn't made for programmers, vim was made to improve vi feature set, and vi itself was to improve on ex. All of them were simply text editors with visual interfase.
    – Braiam
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 15:08
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As demonstrated the policies of this website are inherently inconsistent and unfair. There is nothing you can do about it.

  • Despite Unix And Linux StackExchange, Ubuntu StackExchange, Apple StackExchange all representing communities centered around Operating Systems, and not end-use or programming -- TempleOS can not find a home on its own Stack Exchange nor on a combined OS Dev Stack Exchange.

  • Despite having direct analogs with more mainstream products, the questions are considered "off-topic."

  • Despite being explicitly for programmers (requiring knowledge of C), and unlike VIM which is just a Text Editor that programmers happen to use, TempleOS is not "programmer-enough" for Stack Overflow.

  • Despite having elections, and claiming to be "run by you" there is no list of the rules, sentences are mutable and change at the whims of StackExchange, you'll get banned again after a ban expires because it "wasn't enough." And, moderator elections are a top-down procedure. My own nomination was yanked.

  • Despite having close "reasons" it's just the will of an entitled cabal. Look even this question is tagged for being a dupe of "Why we're not customer support for [your favorite company] 1 answer": it's a meta joke. I flagged to get that notice removed (because it's an abuse of the system) and that flag was denied.

The questions have no home on the network but not for a lack of subject-matter adhesion or quality, just because excluding people and content is what evil corps do. So what can we do,

  • We can hope the Stack Overflow alt-right rage quits and leaves Terry and everyone else alone. Come on symbolic Code of Conduct and fragile masculinity!

  • We can hope that enough people opt-out of the Arbitration Clause so we can one day sue the billionaire overloads in a class action law suit, expropriate their yachts, and retire in Bora Bora, etc.

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    lovely... you're definitely showing good faith and not riling up the community against you by reacting this way to people disagreeing with your PoV... I understand you may be aggravated by the reaction, but pushing back like this will get you nowhere, whether the initial point you're making is valid or not....
    – Patrice
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 23:59
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    "My own nomination was yanked." Well, no. It was yanked because of the written procedures that were voted on and generally well-liked on Meta. Commented May 13, 2018 at 6:44
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    "My own nomination was yanked": I read your nomination text (I should have copy/pasted it somewhere) and seriously: it was ludicrious. Talking about being good friends with Jeff Artwood, this Trump quip, ... what did you expect? Commented May 13, 2018 at 13:49

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