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This is about making FIXABLE questions a better experience for new community members.

Nothing the the rest of this text should imply that you can fix the unfixable or make the unanswerable answerable, or should handle unfixable off-topic stuff any other way than it is now.

Regarding the recent conversations about Stack Overflow's culture and how welcoming it is, there are a number of themes I'd like readers to consider. Below, I also propose a way in which voting can be reset to zero, in order to be forgiving of beginner mistakes.

Assimilation:

Assimilation is not about stripping the newcomers identity and culture from them, it is about them adopting new cultural norms into their own and reciprocating new norms into the culture.

So you want to be welcomed to a community, every community has standards and customs that if crossed will cause you to receive some unwelcomed feedback.

Imagine you are going to someone's house for the first time for dinner, a free dinner, enter that person's house with your shoes the first time you will get a polite please remove your shoes before entering, and maybe pointed to a sign that says Please remove your shoes before entering.

Now what do you do?

  1. Apologise and remove your shoes and ask if there is anything else you need to be aware of before you commit another faux pas?

  2. Tell the person you do not want to hear about having to take your shoes off you just want the free food and if you can not point them to the food stop telling them what to do.

  3. Rant and tell the person you wiped your shoes off and argue that you have done enough to get in the house, you do not need to take your shoes off because you think they are clean enough. Which may not even be the reason they want the shoes off.

  4. Get offended, go sulk in your corner of the internet and in the most passive/aggressive manner possible write twitter/blog posts about how unwelcome you feel because someone asked you to politely take your shoes off before entering their house and nothing more.

  5. I could go on with a large list, I welcome others to edit this and add to it if they feel so inclined, but I think you get the picture.

Reciprocity

If you want to be more welcomed then you have to behave in a manner that deserves it.

Ignorance of what is expected of a new community member should be met with educational comments and direction. It does not have to be super-specific every tiny problem with their question, that would be too time-consuming.

Putting all the blame on the community members that have made the site what it is from their freely volunteered time is not justified. It is extremely offensive and counter productive.

So here is my new auto comment for How to Ask?:

Please read How do I ask a question that is answerable? before attempting to ask more questions so you will be better prepared and able to ask a question in a way that will be well received and more importantly answerable. The more effort you put into communicating your question clearly the more effort you will receive in getting a useful answer. These guidelines are to help you succeed in participating the Stack Overflow community. 1

But what would be better is a message like this with a link that asks:

I want to know what I need to do to make my question answerable?

And give them a chance to redeem themselves; a Mulligan, otherwise it stays on the site like now and probably continues to get down-voted into oblivion. This would show those that are monitoring and willing to help that they should expect the original poster to respond in kind, Reciprocity.

Feature Request: Mulligan

Mulligan - (in informal golf) an extra stroke allowed after a poor shot, not counted on the scorecard.

This would enable the community remove any punitive measures collectively:

I am convinced more than ever that some variation of my proposal "probationary period for questions to be answered" would foster a more welcoming moderation experience for new community members as well as provide more quality content as a side effect.

Remember the FIXABLE part from before? This is an important part of the concept!

If your question immediately gets down voted and close voted because it is Unclear or No MCVE, or other fixable reasons <<< (this is an important qualifier some seem to be selectively ignoring), it should be pulled from the main site into a queue for bronze/silver/gold badge holders in the main tag(s) to review and make suggestions for improvement. Before it gets completely closed and/or deleted. This applies to fixable questions only, just to stress that qualifier again since some seem to be missing the subtlety.

It gets it out of sight of the unwashed masses and stops the negative feedback that is built into the system and should show the asker we are here to help them succeed and not being punitive.

If it gets edited into shape a gold badge holder should be able to release it back into the wild with all the votes reset to 0 again so there are no penalties to their rep with a single click. Maybe two silver votes, three bronze or five votes total will reset it completely.

Create a Mulligan Badge that gets awarded for helping get questions in shape and positively received.

This approach of Let us help you help us will work, even if only for a few it would be better than doing nothing.

But there has to be reciprocity, the original poster must make some sincere effort to respond to the outreach of the community and attempt to assimilate. They have to show to interest in conforming and assimilating into the community.

Those that do not, well that is measurable and the questions will die on the vine and the system will deal with them like it does now, in the most unwelcoming way possible, a question ban. I would even go as far to say that anyone that got special hand holding like this and ignored it, especially multiple times, should be suspended from asking questions even quicker. It kind of demonstrates they are not interested on being a positive community contributor.

We already have an ad hoc group that does sort of this now:

There is already a culture of this mindset in the SOCVR room.

Specifically the that gets acted on quicker than any other request. The fact that that is a thing shows you this is the culture you want to encourage and support.

There are a lot of senior community members like myself that do not answer questions anymore, for various reasons, but mostly all the good questions have already been asked in the last 10 years. But we still want to contribute and maintain the investment we have made keeping the place up. Not so much after this blog post that states that we are all misogynistic, bigoted, racist aholes.

The fact that I am taking the time and effort to participate in meta still shows some residual amount of caring, it is not zero but close to it. When it goes to zero, I will be done for good.

What can I do to help you help me?

This is the culture you need to help the community make new members embrace.

Every person posting a question should be required to think What can I do to help you help me? and be completely open to receiving feedback on how to accomplish what they want, which is get help.

They should be reminded that every comment telling them what they need to do to make their question answerable, is someone taking their time to help them succeed.

Hammer on the concept of ANSWERABLE and nothing else!

Quality will take care of itself if things are answerable.

Welcoming environment will take care of itself if things are answerable.

Everyone wants an answer, if the powers that be try and rephrase the help and popup and everything else to explain. Here is how you get what you want as quickly as possible. It might help get the message across about why the standards and guidelines about how the site is to be used are important for them to focus on what makes their question ANSWERABLE.

Instead of blaming the community for poorly received participation in the community, there has to be at least as much blame put on those receiving the negative feedback if there has been attempts to educate them from the community.

It is very simple psychology 101:

  1. Cater the selfish instinct that is human nature and teach everyone what is expected/required of them to participate and behave in a manner that is more welcomed and they will get less unwelcomed feeling feedback.

  2. Give those in the community the tools, permission and most importantly the support to get the new members of the community up to speed as quickly as possible.


1I am sure there will be those that are looking to be offended that will infer all kinds of "implicit bias" and accuse me of whatever else in these instructions. They are looking to be offended and are never disappointed.

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  • 2
    I think I saw Hans Passant make a similar comment on one of the posts in this genre: the probationary period for questions is kind of what the Triage queue (and to some extent H&I) tried to do.
    – rene
    May 6, 2018 at 19:42
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    While I have to thank you for the positive words about SOCVR, let me also say that we're the group that actively moderates the site, focusing on new posts. Some of the long time members here on MSO have advocated against such group think so I'm not ruling that SOCVR is (part of) the problem. That said: I do think we also have the users with both a track record and enough experience and common sense to adapt to a change to assist askers in making their questions answerable. That doesn't sound unreasonable.
    – rene
    May 6, 2018 at 19:49
  • 48
    "Here is how you get what you want as quickly as possible." But that will generally read, "do some debugging, rubberducking, and reduce your code to an MCVE." That requires active work, and 90% of people asking poor questions do not want to do work. May 6, 2018 at 20:05
  • 14
    I agree with some of this, and I liked the opening. However, I strongly disagree with it should be pulled from the main site into a queue for bronze/silver/gold badge holders in the main tag(s) to review and make suggestions for improvement. Before it gets completely closed and/or deleted.. Strongly disagree. There is an undeniable amount of content which absolutely is off topic and needs to be deleted. It was created from a point of view that didn't understand the topicality here, and there is no way of fixing that content. The user can be educated and welcomed, but the content must go.
    – Travis J
    May 6, 2018 at 20:47
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    "all the good questions have already been asked in the last 10 years." - if you really believe that, why keep participating? Sounds like the job is done, we can all go home now.
    – npostavs
    May 6, 2018 at 20:47
  • 2
    @npostavs We are all still here because of our OCD ;) May 6, 2018 at 21:05
  • 4
    @TravisJ - you obviously missed the three words right before what you quoted. ... other fixable reasons - that is a very specific qualifier, and when left out like you did, completely changes the context of what you quoted. everything else should get closed/deleted as is appropriate. I have edited to make sure no one else can make the same mistake.
    – user177800
    May 6, 2018 at 23:36
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    This post seems to be solutions-oriented, which is good, but would you put an intro before it? It seems to assume a lot of context before launching into a proposal. (Also, what's a Mulligan?)
    – halfer
    May 7, 2018 at 15:24
  • 3
    The "possible reactions" including sulking and fussing that you wiped your shoes or "don't tell me what to do" are all reactions I've seen from the aforementioned "don't use this or that technology" immediate pushback on a question. Just thought it was worth mentioning that someone can ask a question "correctly" and still violate certain cultural norms and thus enter into this scenario. Not saying it matters in reference to your provided solutions, only that your initial premise is interesting but not limited to poorly asked questions.
    – Anthony
    May 7, 2018 at 18:56
  • 3
    This feature already exists; when enough experienced users feel that a question is not answerable we call that putting it on hold (or closing it). When that happens answer's can't be posted, it's given the opportunity to be improved by the author and others, and if it is, it can be reopened (what you call a mulligan).
    – Servy
    May 7, 2018 at 18:59
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    @feelingunwelcome But a question being answerable doesn't mean it doesn't merit downvotes. Just because a question is physically capable of getting an answer doesn't mean it's a quality question (and likewise, just because a question is not a good question doesn't mean it's not answerable), so the difference is one that's not an appropriate change.
    – Servy
    May 7, 2018 at 19:33
  • 1
    I feel that hammering on answerability misses the point of what makes a quality question. To me, being able to answer a question != a good question. That's orthogonal to the root issue, I think. For example, I'd say the question in this meta post is eminently answerable. But it's still a pretty crappy question, and closed.
    – fbueckert
    May 7, 2018 at 20:17
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    @feelingunwelcome: Or maybe because of your poor grammar. The way you're using conjunctions and commas, it makes "Unclear or No MCVE" seem like a list of two elements, while "other fixable reasons" is a separate clause. What you really meant was for them to be a single list of 3 things. Maybe you should just change it to "fixable reasons, for example X or Y". You know, start with the important stuff and you won't need to use boldface to emphasize things. May 8, 2018 at 0:07
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    Good example with the shoes. Likewise, if the host cares about his social life, he would, as you exemplify, kindly ask the new guest to take his shoes off. He would not throw the guest out while ranting about people who don't understand that you do not wear shoes indoors.
    – Alex
    May 8, 2018 at 10:56
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    @Alex He would if he continually gets guests who don't care to take off their shoes, because they're just there for the free dinner. And their friends told them to ignore the host, he can still wear his shoes and eat dinner. I know I'd rant about it.
    – fbueckert
    May 8, 2018 at 13:56

4 Answers 4

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If we got rid of every rude/abusive/etc comment, Stack Overflow will still be seen as unwelcoming. Why? Because our community standards require that people actually do work.

If you want help with debugging code, then you need to reduce that code to an MCVE that you provide on-site. You have to explain clearly what the problem is, what you expect to happen, and what is happening. And so forth.

Lots of people can do this, and they have successful questions and answers on SO. But many people won't. And when their question is rejected, no matter how much we explain why that happens or how they could fix it, they will take that as not being "welcoming". And some of them will take to Reddit, Twitter, or wherever and loudly proclaim how unwelcoming we all are. Conveniently without linking to their poor-quality post.

They won't care about your "mulligan" queue. They won't care about adding an MCVE or whatever. They won't care about the rules. They only care about one thing: did we do what they wanted us to do?

So long as that happens, SO will be "seen as" unwelcoming. Even people who could succeed here will stay away, not based on facts but based on statements from others that we're "unwelcoming".

You can't fight against a negative reputation like that without lowering your quality standards.

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    This answer rubs me the wrong way, even though I have said rather similar things in a not so distant past. I think some of it has to do with how it frames the goal of the proposal. As far as this debate goes, I don't care just about improving SO's reputation. I also care about not actively driving away people who can become good contributors. Those people, though, aren't in your picture here, which includes: successful SO users, people who didn't try SO because of rumors, the entitled whiners, and that's it. I feel something is missing.
    – duplode
    May 7, 2018 at 5:21
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    @duplode: "Those people, though, aren't in your picture here" That's because they don't need anything. The people who aren't warded off by our reputation and can become good contributers... will become good contributers. They'll read the rules and follow them; they'll understand how the site works and respect that. We don't need to do anything to get these people. May 7, 2018 at 13:20
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    this is nothing more than just being contrary and saying nothing should be attempted because nothing will make it any better, that is not an argument that is just pessimistic trolling at best.
    – user177800
    May 7, 2018 at 15:11
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    There's a difference between saying "let's do nothing" and "let's not add to our problems". The core problem is many new users who simply do not use the features they already have - adding more features for them to ignore is unlikely to help.
    – Knetic
    May 7, 2018 at 22:16
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    @NicolBolas I see at least two non-negligible groups of (for the lack of a better word) competent non-users: (a) Those who understand how Stack Overflow works, but object out of principle to some fundamental aspect of the site (e.g. gamification); (b) Those who tried the site and had what they perceive as a bad experience. This can go from having a poorly received first post and never quite understanding what went wrong to outright mistreatment. There is nothing we can do about (a), but I feel it is worth it looking at which cases of (b) could be better dealt with, and how it might be done.
    – duplode
    May 8, 2018 at 9:03
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    On a related note, here is an (admittedly vague) illustration of the broader theme. Pick a set of poorly received Meta questions, like these ones. In many of them, the OPs fell foul of some of our rules, and were told by Meta they were wrong, in no uncertain terms. Is it really the case that all of those OPs, who happened to get some specific thing wrong at one point, are not capable contributors?
    – duplode
    May 8, 2018 at 9:11
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    @feelingunwelcome: What a silly response to a well-constructed answer, which happens to be correct by the way. Who's really doing the trolling? May 8, 2018 at 19:31
  • 1
    @NicolBolas That being so, it is a case of identifying what is fixable and building upon that. By the way, it is really a range, or a spectrum: there are many intermediate steps between "good question, incomprehensibly closed" and "terrible, irredeemable question".
    – duplode
    May 8, 2018 at 19:34
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit Actually the answer is not well-constructed. It makes several claims about things that are not of dependably testable veracity without backing up these predictions with any sort of evidence or data. It really is just a "why bother" answer.
    – TylerH
    May 8, 2018 at 19:51
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    I've seen this exact point recently in an online rant against "SO's welcoming". The topic was presented with many examples supposed to demonstrate the point. They were all (except one IIRC) either obvious duplicates, blatantly too broad, lacking code, etc. Even if i had commented them myself with polite direction to guidelines, it would have been seen as unwelcoming by most, i guess
    – Kaddath
    May 9, 2018 at 7:53
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    If someone goes to Twitter and screams Those stupid jerks at Stack Overflow closed my question because it lacked important parts as the system explained in this polite message - I'm fine with that. What we're not fine with, and what has to stop is Those jerks had a conversation about me, right in front of me, in comments under my question, that totally excluded me, where they said condescending things, and then they closed my question. -- That is what makes me want to hold kittens and sob.
    – Tim Post
    May 9, 2018 at 12:36
  • 3
    @TimPost: "That is what makes me want to hold kittens and sob." Sure... assuming that actual "condescending things" are what's being complained about. I've seen some examples of "condescending things" that consisted of saying "exactly" and "clearly". May 9, 2018 at 13:19
  • 1
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit That's not data and you (should) know it.
    – TylerH
    May 9, 2018 at 13:55
  • 1
    Verifiable is a word you have misused here. Anecdotal experiences by their very nature are typically unverifiable. If you want to post about your feelings that's fine, but don't call it data or pontificate that it is objectively correct.
    – TylerH
    May 9, 2018 at 14:05
  • 3
    @duplode I don't think SE as a whole knows what to do as of yet. I mean, the response has been all over the place from the community, and for the most part, all we get is some ownership of the problem, without any actual steps, vague, concrete, or otherwise, on how to rectify it. The community is dividing itself into two camps over it, and the lack of engagement from SE to clarify isn't helping. Leadership's been awful thin.
    – fbueckert
    May 9, 2018 at 17:30
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As a newer user (I've been around for about a month now), I have found that much of what people are saying (in these posts) are true. Many newer users don't go through the basic preliminary steps to ask a question that can actually be answered. Things like minimal attempt made at answering their own questions first. Or doing anything at all, along the lines of research. Putting forth that minimal effort involved.

I feel like I have a somewhat unique perspective here. I have lurked on SO for several years. So, I have a semi-solid understanding of the rules and what the user-base likes and does not like. However, I still have yet to even post a question of my own. I have found several hundred answers to questions I was contemplating asking, but minor research brought me the solution by searching SO.

I do know that certain aspects of the site are difficult to get around when you're first starting out. But, I've always felt that putting in (at least) minimal effort into your questions and answers will net a decent response from the community. It is the simple concept that our community require that people actually do some basic work to help themselves, then others can step in to get them past whatever wall they might be facing.

I've seen quite a few posts from newer individuals that face the "Curse of Knowledge" cognitive bias issue. And they just can't get over that to actually ask their question in a way that makes any sense to anyone but themselves.

But I 100% agree that if we "give those in the community the tools, permission and most importantly the support to get the new members of the community up to speed as quickly as possible", we all succeed as a group and grow together as a knowledge-base.

On a side note: You can really tell the difference between someone who wrote out and proof-read their post before posting it then adding the title afterward, vs someone who did not.

[+1, to the OP for this line of well-though out ideas]

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  • I also have never needed to post a question if I spent a few minutes searching for an answer, and spent the time to build an MVE for posting as a question. May 9, 2018 at 5:05
  • 2
    Note that generally, if experimented users noticed that you definitively made efforts even if they're not up to SO's standards, they're likely to not close your post but rather tell you what it's wrong or editing it.
    – Walfrat
    May 9, 2018 at 7:50
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Minimal Complete and Verifiable Examples not a Panacea

When asking a question about a problem caused by your code...

My emphasis https://stackoverflow.com/help/mcve

I think some problems are not about coding, but about development. Developer is the label that Stackoverflow users prefer over programmer, so I think this justifies to also answer questions which are not about coding problems per se, but about development in general. This would be the responsible thing to do.

This is probably not a popular opinion, but it is the problems surrounding coding that for a professional sometimes can reduce productivity. This is why I do not believe in always requiring a minimal complete and verifiable example (MCVE).

Also, throwing acronyms at newcomers is not welcoming, unless you first explain them.

Against Assimiliation

Assimilation is a word that I personally associate with a certain political flavor that is unwelcoming to say the least. If home is where your family is, then culture is what most people are doing, whether new or old. Although the points-based system gives people a false sense of rank, this is but a myth of privilege. Yes, there are privileges that are unlocked with additional points, but that does not necessarily makes higher ranking members cultural leaders. Those votes are mainly from answering development questions. And I don't think that a technocracy should make decisions about culture.

These are not social points, like the social point system that was recently introduced in a Chinese city. And we should be thankful that they are not.

Initiate Reciprocity

Reciprocity is something you can initiate. The problem with a tit-for-a-tat attitude is that cooperation fails if people are not cooperating to begin with. Don't wait for it to come to you. Sometimes you have to give a little more than you receive. Set an example. Be the culture.

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    For the record, if you include [mcve] in a comment on Stack Overflow, the link automatically expands to "Minimal, Complete, Verifiable Example". So the new user won't have to deal with the acronym right away. That said, I agree that not every question needs an MCVE.
    – S.L. Barth
    May 9, 2018 at 8:51
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Why do new users ask questions on our website? Are they trying to ask a question that we would find valid?

Not very often, I don't think.

I think these users found out (perhaps from some of us) that if you have a question, you can find the answer on Stack Overflow. Of course, if you don't find it, you are encouraged to ask.

However, when you ask, you will be helped (hopefully) to ask a question that fits the kinds of questions we like to answer.

But what if your question doesn't already fit? Do we answer it anyway? Not usually. Instead, we try to change the question to fit, or we just close it. Either way, we are not answering the question as asked, not really. We are not being helpful. We don't direct the questioner to some other websites they can learn how to program, or debug, or anything else. It isn't in our best interest to do so.

And thus, we are considered "unwelcoming", because we won't answer the question. And we won't answer the question. It doesn't fit, and it doesn't have some 4 letter MV-whatever.

I think we need a nicer way to guide the asker away from Stack Overflow. I think we need a "Be Nice" queue for both 1st question askers and those with more experience who don't yet understand what kind of questions we like. I think most of the time, we could have a standard response template that was already "nice", and which we could edit (or add in a few lines) to send the user on their way with a path to go forward, even if it is just "please try these tutorials and see if they make sense to you, and come back here once you have been through them", or "try these search terms".

In some cases, there may already be a "beginners forum" for a particular technology, and we could suggest they ask there. But I don't know.

We would still be closing their question, but at least we would be showing them a way to get their answers first.

What do you think?

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    Very well said. As far as I'm concerned, "Stack Overflow is not a monopoly" should be a rallying call. Tag communities could be encouraged to give the kind of off-site directions you suggest. It is also worth noting this isn't exclusively an issue with newbies: anecdotally, when I see a good library request or an interesting opinion-based question in [haskell], I'm perfectly comfortable with suggesting /r/haskell alongside my close vote, as I know there is a friendly community there which receives well and gives useful answers to this kind of question.
    – duplode
    May 9, 2018 at 3:06
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    I second the idea of a template, but only for questions that are about code. I don't think all development questions are about code.
    – noumenal
    May 9, 2018 at 8:44

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