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TLDR;

I am suggesting that providing a mechanism whereby people choose to be mentored (in order to learn how to ask good questions) will contribute to make SO a more welcoming place, without sacrificing quality.


We've all had a good fight about the (in)famous blog post. This is my effort to calm down and actually try and be constructive.

My experience here on SO, and now elsewhere, has brought me to the point where I am convinced that experts and newbies can't operate as equals in a shared space. Basically because experts will get burnt out on always hand-holding, and newbies will end up getting their feelings hurt by burnt-out experts.

The weird thing is that https://english.stackexchange.com/ worked this out ages ago, and https://ell.stackexchange.com/ was born.

I think that you can propose workarounds until you're blue in the face, this is the underlying problem, and it's not going to go away.

You have to have a place where experienced programmers can concentrate on asking/answering questions without changing nappies. And a different place where they can engage in mentoring.

Because I think there are tons of experts who would engage in mentoring (I mean, they're here because they like to help). But the question-answer-I-need-a-fix-to-my-code-right-now-quickly format doesn't motivate the experts because it doesn't really help the newbie. It's giving a fish, rather than teaching to fish.

Given this analysis, what should we do? A separate site, like ELL? Or a 'baby pool' within Stack Overflow? Whatever it is, I think it is necessary to have a place where the roles are clearly differentiated: the newbie is here to learn, and knows it. The expert is here to help, kindly, and knows it. Given that SO is apparently so scary, maybe it would even be welcomed by new users. In Clippy style: "you're new here, would you like help asking your first questions so you don't get shot down in flames?".

Maybe the simplest idea to experiment with would be instead of having a "asking wizard", have an "asking tutor". People would voluntarily enter their first questions into a "pimp my question" queue, where experts could help them out and explain the ropes.

Update: This isn't really so much about technical newbies, as "people who don't know how to formulate a question". Obviously there's a correlation, but in response to Benjamin's comment below, if you've learnt how to ask a decent question in Javascript, there's no reason you won't know how to do it for Swift.

Update2: What do you do with users who refuse to be mentored? Is there any conceivable way in which they can be 'welcome'? Re liliscent's question, are there users who are just too newbie to be salvageable without further tutoring in a non-Q&A environment?

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  • Separating sites ("SOL"?) probably wouldn't work, mostly because SO is so established that the experts don't want to yield it to the newbs, and the newbs won't go to the new SOL because they are simply not aware of it.
    – deceze Mod
    May 1, 2018 at 7:34
  • 2
    asking wizard and asking tutor (aka mentorship)
    – rene
    May 1, 2018 at 7:37
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    I have only a single reference point but my first post on ELL boosted my self confidence ...
    – rene
    May 1, 2018 at 7:44
  • Thanks @rene, I missed that, looks like a great experiment. It looks like the unanimously positive reactions of mentors confirms my point about people wanting to help. Also people choosing to be mentored makes all the difference.
    – Benjol
    May 1, 2018 at 7:45
  • @Benjol yeah, I think we have seen some experiments that were worth continuing but it looks like more pressing issues popped up that floated to the top of the backlog pushing these kind of gems of the radar. I'm not saying it is the only solution but it might help to get this immense complex feelings puzzle sorted.
    – rene
    May 1, 2018 at 7:50
  • @deceze, yes probably too late for that.
    – Benjol
    May 1, 2018 at 7:50
  • 1
    I'm ok with JavaScript the point I would probably get accepted to the "experts" Stack Overflow of your version. If I have a Swift question though - do I go to the "newbies" Stack Overflow? If the answer is yes - I don't understand why because I can do the research around it - if the answer is "no" then we're in the business of ranking people which is never great. May 1, 2018 at 8:01
  • @BenjaminGruenbaum why is the business of ranking people not great. What do you think reputation is? :) That aside, you're right, I will update the question.
    – Benjol
    May 1, 2018 at 8:07
  • Isn't this what programming.stackexchange.com(subsequently renamed and rebranded) was supposed to do
    – Liam
    May 1, 2018 at 8:11
  • @Liam Maybe in its first version but today certainly not. We wait for gnat to point that out to you with many links ... ;)
    – rene
    May 1, 2018 at 8:17
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    @Liam, ha, depends for which period you ask, IIRC. The name and the purpose were the subject of heated discussion at the time. Vaguely reminiscent of... something :)
    – Benjol
    May 1, 2018 at 8:17
  • Closely related to: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/366970/…
    – Raedwald
    May 1, 2018 at 8:17
  • @Raedwald, great minds!
    – Benjol
    May 1, 2018 at 8:18
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    I don't understand some of the people who this is hurting most (contributors & mods), instantly respond with "no it will never work, we are not trying it", "who would moderate it". Surely they had this discussion a few times before this format was born.
    – user1641172
    May 1, 2018 at 22:44

4 Answers 4

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My experience here on SO, and now elsewhere, has brought me to the point where I am convinced that experts and newbies can't operate as equals in a shared space. Basically because experts will get burnt out on always hand-holding, and newbies will end up getting their feelings hurt by burnt-out experts.

The weird thing is that https://english.stackexchange.com/ worked this out ages ago, and https://ell.stackexchange.com/ was born.

That's not all; you have the same situation on

  • mathoverflow.net versus math.stackexchange.com
  • unix.stackexchange.com versus ubuntu.stackexchange.com

so there is lots of precedent and history within the engine for this schism between beginner and expert communities.

I think that you can propose workarounds until you're blue in the face, this is the underlying problem, and it's not going to go away.

I tend to agree, because I honestly don't believe any system with downvoting and close voting can ever truly be welcoming in any meaningful sense of the word.

That is not to say that things can't be improved here -- ask me about the /ask page! I dare you! I triple dog dare you! 🤣 -- and any regressions in the original "be civil" (since 2008) and "be nice" rule (since 2012) policing that Stack has suffered should be addressed with an absolute iron fist. There's lots of great core Q&A feature improvement ideas I'm reading about here on meta.stackoverflow that I think have merit and could help... and that's the very purpose of meta, for the community to collectively brainstorm ways to improve the experience, both for themselves, and for others.

(As an aside, I very strongly resent that the blog post says "don't be an asshole" when that was never remotely the case -- the actual, literal printed-on-the-webpage rule was "be civil" and later, "be nice". When I was here if I ever saw rudeness it got excised immediately, and people who could not stop being rude were banned. If that stopped happening after I left in 2012, then I guess I don't know about it.)

But when people say

Stack Overflow isn't very welcoming

if you listen closely, and dig into any examples they provide, what they're really saying is

the strict rules at Stack Overflow are oppressive

and honestly, for some students, they're absolutely right. There ought to be another place with more permissive rules for students who need that. The question is whether Stack has the resources to build that place, or if it needs to be elsewhere.

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  • 13
    +1, but that "other place" can't reasonably use Stack Overflow's Q&A format. The Q&A format is suited to creating long-term useful artifacts, but can't serve people who can't formulate a question; what they need is back-and-forth discussion, which requires some other format like a forum or issue tracker. And if they can formulate succinct, answerable questions, however basic, then they're already welcome here as far as I'm concerned - and the blog post, despite asserting otherwise, has presented no actual evidence that anyone feels differently.
    – Mark Amery
    May 1, 2018 at 10:08
  • I actually had a question on meta once (which was a dupe, and I got vote hammered, yay) whether we should "tutor" on questions of beginner quality. Math is a good example of nice tutoring in Q&A format, and I second it as a very good idea.
    – kabanus
    May 1, 2018 at 10:12
  • 4
    The question is whether Stack has the resources to build that place, or if it needs to be elsewhere. yeah. I guess the question is whether being active in that place (in a teaching role) could be rewarding enough for enough participants. With the premise of building a library for the ages and an addictive rep system, Stack Overflow got the mix just right - no idea whether that can be replicated for a one-on-one teaching site
    – Pekka
    May 1, 2018 at 10:12
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    So, what's up with that /ask page Jeff? May 1, 2018 at 10:16
  • By the way, I'd like to commend you for being open about your opinion against the blog post ( I'm sure the backlash for that can feel like well... much. So thanks for speaking up. It's even better to do this here. May 1, 2018 at 10:18
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    I am not against the blog post, only that particular section of it, which implies that being an asshole (aka rude) was EVER okay on Stack Overflow. It was not, it never has been, and I strongly resent what that section implies. May 1, 2018 at 10:28
  • 5
    @Pekka웃 your opt-in mentoring mini-system posted here on meta is an outstanding idea, in my opinion. May 1, 2018 at 10:35
  • 2
    I have the impression that the current team wants SO to be(come) that place.
    – user247702
    May 1, 2018 at 12:05
  • 3
    I mostly agree with you, but I'm not convinced that we've really reached the edges of coexistence here, and in the same breath, continuing to push those edges forward seems increasingly scary. I think we have to ask ourself if the problem Stack Overflow set out to solve is still relevant, along with the mechanics we used to solve it, and what the new problems and needed mechanics seem to look like. But, that's .. kinda what we're doing right now. Oh, yeah, what were you saying about the /ask page?
    – Tim Post
    May 1, 2018 at 14:00
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    @TimPost I think we have to ask ourself if the problem Stack Overflow set out to solve is still relevant, along with the mechanics we used to solve it -- I think many of us would have preferred if this was exactly what the blog post said instead of hiding it behind blame games. Many of us still find that original purpose a worthwhile effort. If SE doesn't just say so.
    – enderland
    May 1, 2018 at 14:20
  • I agree that very often "Stack Overflow isn't very welcoming" means "the strict rules at Stack Overflow are oppressive", but I think your own preceding paragraph allows for the fact that in many other cases it means "too often people on StackOverflow are uncivil and sorta mean". I feel like a lot of the arguments here stem from people either insisting on only one of those interpretations, or insisting that someone else is focusing on only one of those interpretations.
    – joran
    May 1, 2018 at 14:29
  • @JeffAtwood Whoa, whoa... "Triple dog dare"? Aren't you skipping some steps? May 1, 2018 at 16:46
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    when people say "Stack Overflow isn't very welcoming" if you listen closely, and dig into any examples they provide, what they're really saying is "the strict rules at Stack Overflow are oppressive" This has absolutely been my experience. Go look up any post on Reddit or (to a lesser extent) Hacker News that even mentions StackOverflow and you'll see countless examples of this. There are lots of people complaining about StackOverflow. But very rarely are those complaints about actual rudeness. The vast majority are simply saying "they closed/marked as duplicate/downvoted my question".
    – Ajedi32
    May 1, 2018 at 17:56
  • 3
    @TimPost if you want my honest opinion, the things that will replace Stack Overflow, at least for the audience that needs a much more permissive rule set, have already been built. But I suspect the strict core rules will live on in the way that Wikipedia does, with the same sort of long term tensions. May 1, 2018 at 21:32
  • 2
    I honestly don't know what to say to a user who posts a question for handling by a collection of skilled and experienced developers, (who spend their working day struggling with recalcitrant, incompassionate, soulless tools and machines), and then, when it gets handled by by a collection of skilled and experienced developers, complains about the result:( May 2, 2018 at 22:55
7

Making another site for programming learners probably won't work to reduce the hostility on Stack Overflow. Or the influx of bad questions. But it would likely be a better experience for new programmers on the other site.

I know this because I'm active on ELU (and to a lesser extent ELL), and having a site for nonnative speakers hasn't helped ELU. Or at least it hasn't helped enough.

On ELU:

  • ~55% of questions asked in 2017 were closed. The highest percent in all of SE.
    • This includes questions that are about "advanced topics" such as etymology because they lacked research. (For several reasons I don't like closing etymology questions: freely available resources are often very brief; sometimes the community is able to find antedatings; and lastly, I just love questions about the history of English.) Suffice it to say, it's hard for people to always agree on what should be on- and off-topic. (In fact, there are people who believe that the biggest tag on the site, single word requests, should be off-topic.)
    • A lot of it, however, is just people not reading the rules.
  • Comments aren't always particularly nice to new users. This is something that I think I struggle with too, since how can you tell someone to go look it up in a dictionary without sounding condescending?
  • Occasionally, a question by a native speaker gets migrated and they complain on meta. How would you feel if your question got migrated like this, to the "noob site"?
  • Although one close reason says that ELL may take their question, I see very few people actually leave ELU and ask over there. (But I don't have any numbers on this).

Now there's nothing wrong with ELL, actually. People there are a lot more welcoming of even the most basic questions; willing to do some "hand holding" if the question is unclear to get things into shape; and the close percent there is a lot lower, although some questions do get closed. In fact, there are plenty of questions that belong on neither ELL nor ELU, such as proofreading questions (which are not accepted on any SE site actually).


Things to consider:

  • People know Stack Overflow but they won't know about the new site, so where do you think they'll ask?
  • If we made more questions off topic (good luck coming up with a definition of "noob question"), we still wouldn't have enough close votes (or close voters) to close them all.
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  • 3
    very interesting and absolutely germane to the original question. I think the english one is particularly interesting, because the divide is between people who "know" English versus those that feel they do not. Similarly, when we originally built Stack Overflow, it was intended as a tool for practicing programmers, people who had a job as a programmer already, to help each others as peers. (There is a caveat around "enthusiasts" aka people who could probably get a job as a programmer if they wanted to.) So a site for people who don't "know" programming would be 100% equivalent in my mind. May 3, 2018 at 22:04
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The weird thing is that https://english.stackexchange.com/ worked this out ages ago, and https://ell.stackexchange.com/ was born.

Well. No. That's not how that went down. In fact, Robert Cartaino was at some pains to clarify that if ELL had been just "ELU for newbies", the proposal would have stayed closed and been deleted (emphasis original):

There's a bit of work needed to make it clear that this site is here to serve "English-language learners," not just a dumping ground for "too basic" question from English Language & Usage.

Our current English community will have to be patient about what they migrate while we build a strong foundation for a high-quality learning site. The new site will need time [to] establish an "expert community." Advanced learners can share what they know (through experience or research). Hopefully advanced English users will join the site, too. But it's going to take a lot of moderation and community involvement to overcome the inherent language barrier and potential quality issues.

In other words, you're proposing to fall into the very trap ELL had to work so hard to avoid, but at much higher scale (if SO newb traffic is to be successfully redirected, it will need to accommodate several orders of magnitude more questions than ELL and ELU combined).

Contrary to the assertion in this question, I am not aware of any Stack Exchange examples of successful "X, except for askers without any real skill in the area or in asking questions" sites. To the best of my knowledge, Math SE vs MathOverflow would be the closest, with Theoretical CS vs CS coming shortly behind. But as I understand the site scopes, those make a distinction between active-research-level questions, and questions for a general audience of those interested in the subject, which is not unlike the ELU/ELL divide.

But the divide in question quality on SO is not, AFAICT, between those with an academic career in the subject and those who have merely spent 100 hours studying and practicing and researching. It's between those who have spent a few years programming, and those who have spent a few years cargo-culting, or are trying to get a head start on their resume by beginning the cargo-culting early. This is why there's such resentment when questions are closed as duplicates: we're denying someone a maximally customized, drop-in solution to their problem and instead requiring them to put thought and effort into adapting it. This type of problem user does not want a library, even a library of bite-size articles on very specific sub-sub-sub problems, like SO is. No. They want their problem solved right here right now so they can copy and paste and be off.

You can't get Stack Exchange quality by catering to that. You can get SE quality from picking and choosing out of that kind of question pool (which is pretty much exactly what we've been doing), but then the result is that a number of questions don't make the cut. And statistically, if a decent fraction of questions are rejected because we can't fit them into a library, a decent fraction of askers are effectively going to be rejected as well because that's all they're willing to ask. (Which is pretty much exactly what we've been doing.)

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  • I don't disagree, so this goes in the direction of mentoring, here or elsewhere.
    – Benjol
    May 2, 2018 at 7:03
6

(The following is personal experience, I also have no data to show)

I used to be quite active on Electronics.SE a few years ago. At the time there was an influx of new people due to the rising popularity of Arduino prototyping boards.

Just like many modern coding tools and languages, Arduino made it easier for people to experiment with electronics. As a result, many of their questions showed only very basic knowledge. This caused all kinds of grief for some of the high-rep users, who had created a community geared towards practising engineers.

Then Arduino.SE was born. New Arduino questions were migrated there. People on Electronics.SE were more happy. Those of us who liked helping new users would spend time on Arduino.SE answering questions. New users on Arduino.SE would help other new users and wouldn't get annoyed that the questions were too basic. Win-win.

These observations have given me two ideas:

  1. As you propose, add a new site for beginner programmers. This would create a new community of beginners and people who like to help them, and thus remove some of the hostility.

  2. Split SO into different sites based on language or whatever, e.g. java.SO, android.SO, etc. Radical idea? Maybe it doesn't have to be seperate sites (all those links would break!), just show on the main page a list of popular tags instead of posts, at which the user clicks through to see those relevant posts. I think this would work because it could help create distinct communities around specific topics. Topics that attract a lot of new users would have higher participation from new users and be more friendly*.

*This assumes that new users are not unfriendly too.

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  • 1
    I can see this works if indeed you have something clear cut as arduino vs the rest. It would be an interesting test to see if say a .Net Learners site proposal on A51 would make it into beta.
    – rene
    May 1, 2018 at 8:27
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    FWIW, I like the cross-pollination happening on SO as a result of mixing everything into one site. Separating things by technology would also be difficult since often one problem encompasses a number of technologies at the same time. Also, within one technology you'll have the same newbie-expert split anyway; it's not like newbieness is confined to specific tags (though specific tags tend to have more newbie questions than others).
    – deceze Mod
    May 1, 2018 at 8:35
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    For me the problems here is that SO is like a black hole dragging questions into it. It's mass (popularity/infamy) is so large that "newbies" will still gravitate towards it in favour of the smaller more niche sites. You'd need a robust mechanism of migration towards the smaller sites and this will add to the moderators work load, etc. etc. You just end up moving the problem down the line. Now it's not close votes rudeness is migration rudeness
    – Liam
    May 1, 2018 at 8:43
  • @Liam If the first page of SO was links to popular tags, that would create the appearance of smaller sites, but also make "migration" easy as it would be an internal process of simply re-tagging a question. May 1, 2018 at 8:49
  • So your suggesting that changing a tag would move it to a different site? this would be a radical change.
    – Liam
    May 1, 2018 at 8:52
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    @geometrikal How do you retag a bad java question…? To bad-java?
    – deceze Mod
    May 1, 2018 at 8:52
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    Lets face it, SO aren't going to do any of these things anyway...
    – Liam
    May 1, 2018 at 8:52
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    @Liam, nope no difference under the hood, just changing the main SO page to have tag links to give that appearance. Clicking the "all tags" button would simply show the normal site May 1, 2018 at 8:53
  • @deceze lol :) .. May 1, 2018 at 8:54
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    @Liam The new user experience could also go there. It could automatically create a post with a newbie flag, and people who don't like newbie questions could have an option to ignore them. Anyway, you are right, nothing will change. May 1, 2018 at 8:56
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    I wish something would change, the current thinking appears to be it's the peoples fault and they should change and not the systems.
    – Liam
    May 1, 2018 at 9:04
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    I love this example, however, I think the proper divide is english and english learners, not necessarily to have an entire sub-site for Java or Python. May 1, 2018 at 10:02
  • 4
    Calling a site "beginner" might drive folks away who would otherwise benefit, but... I would very much like to see a "debugging and problem-solving" site. I think it would be a good match for Code Review, which btw has a fantastic community which is very welcoming of beginners.
    – Shog9
    May 1, 2018 at 17:01
  • @Shog9 I agree... perhaps "learner" might be better. I think the problem is the people that agree beginner/learner describes them would happily go, and the people who meet that category but don't think they do would take it rather poorly (especially if questions start getting migrated). Perhaps getting the people happy with that self description is enough (I see plenty of discouraged but mostly well-intentioned users say things like "SO is fine for experts but not for beginners like me")
    – mbrig
    May 1, 2018 at 18:56

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