-116

I have a question about my Stack Overflow post: How do you pack a c++ DLL that can still be injected into a game?

Just recently, Jay Hanlon had a blog post posted, which concerned the feelings experienced by new and other marginal users on Stack Overflow. Just now, I got answer-banned because someone flagged my answer as "too unimportant" (see link) as to be rated as an answer. I feel that my answer was very relevant to the topic. I also would have liked to comment instead of answer, because – of course – I understood the preliminary level of my "answer" (request).

Now I feel a little – very much – awkward, because I tried to help and also to increase my worth to the community and instead got further blown to the limits of the sky.

Now I am doomed not to be able to do anything – answer-bans do not lift themselves and my questions are rated as not-important enough.

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  • 71
    One misplaced answer will not trigger a ban. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 13:38
  • 61
    Your answer is asking clarifications from the user. That is indeed what comments are for. I get it's unfortunate to not be able to comment until you have the rep for it, but the system is working as intended.... The ban isn't someone who decided to ban you. It's that the algorithm weighting your contributions thinks that your next answer is unlikely to be great. And you have to have other answers if you are answer banned. You don't get a ban from one post.
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 13:39
  • 1
    @Patrice I do understand that; I also stated that I know. I am trying to highlight a design flaw in this structure, which seems to be known in the upper floors of the hierarchy. Thank you for pointing out the problem again. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 13:42
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    @Mistercookiebite what problem? You posted a non-answer as an answer, got a bad reception, and tripped an automated ban algorithm. If I try to enter my house by a window, my alarm will ring. It's not a flaw....
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 13:43
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    So you knowingly broke the rules and you want your account to be unbanned because you "feel a little – very much – awkward" and you think this is a reasonable request because of that blog post, have I got that right?
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:21
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    @Oleg I'm sure you have. That blog is forever going to be a sword, wielded by anyone who breaks the rules, feels slighted or has some other agenda that is not promoting good software development, and directed against anyone who is volunteering time to try to moderate:( Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:36
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    Incidentally, you assisted some user with the name 'Suicide Cheats' who, it seems is engaged in hacking GTA via DLL injection. Are you sure that not legally actionable by GTA/Rockstar? You should check with a lawyer. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 15:03
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    The blog post does not contain an invitation to blatantly ignore the core values of the site. Don't pretend it is. That is rude to the current user base.
    – rene
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 15:50
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    This question is "about policies and community decisions" and hence on-topic per stackoverflow.com/help/whats-meta voted to reopen.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 16:58
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    @rene You're right, it doesn't say it's okay to ignore the rules, it just says that it's inappropriate to inform other people when they are ignoring the rules, which is close enough to the same thing for practical purposes. Saying that the site is still going to have quality standards, it's just going to refuse to allow people to actually enforce them or tell other people that they should be following them is not really meaningfully different from just not having quality standards in the first place.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:54
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    There is no question in this question.
    – philipxy
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 4:31
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    @philipxy Discussion meta posts are meant as a starting point, and this evidently does start a discussion.
    – Passer By
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:01
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    That blog post did not go well at all!
    – Alon Eitan
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 7:29
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    People get 10 or 20 upvotes after putting much effort into their questions. But you have taught us how to achieve hundreds of downvotes. Commented Dec 7, 2020 at 7:12

4 Answers 4

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Just now, I got answer-banned because someone flagged my answer as "too unimportant" (see link) as to be rated as an answer.

No, your answer was deemed to not be an answer. And it wasn't; it was a comment.

That this led to an answer-ban is not the fault of the person who (correctly) flagged your comment-as-an-answer. Nor is it the fault of the people who (correctly) downvoted your answer. It's your fault for repeated violations of our quality standards for answers.

And to make sure you understand, you don't get answer banned for one answer. It takes repeated violations to get a ban. That this was your last straw is not the fault of the people (correctly) downvoting your answer.

Now I feel a little – very much – awkward, because I tried to help and also to increase my worth to the community and instead got further blown to the limits of the sky.

Then you should have learned to help within the limits of the powers you have. If you're not allowed to comment, that means what you wanted to say as a comment cannot be said. If that comment were complete enough to be an answer, it shouldn't be posted as a comment. And if it isn't, then it shouldn't be posted as an answer.

You should have just moved on to something else. There are plenty of questions on the site that don't need comments before you could answer them.

I am trying to highlight a design flaw in this structure, which seems to be known in the upper floors of the hierarchy.

Not allowing you to comment is not a "design flaw". We have a reason why commenting requires 50 reputation. And it is not a "design flaw" to prevent people from circumventing this restriction by using answers as comments. Answers are for answers to the question. People should be able to read an answer and actually get an answer. Allowing users to use answers as comments works against that.

None of this is a "design flaw". You wanted to do something, what you wanted was not allowed by your current reputation, so you did something wrong instead of accepting your limitations. Punishing this behavior is not a "design flaw", anymore than arresting someone for mugging people is a "design flaw".

Just because you believe that you ought to be able to do a thing doesn't mean you can do that thing.

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    @Mistercookiebite: "it simply leads to people either deleting their profile or just leaving altogether." But... you repeatedly violated our quality standards. You were given several opportunities to make good contributions to the site, and you made bad contributions. We were welcoming, but only up to the point where it was clear that you weren't contributing positively to the site. We aren't going to sacrifice quality on the altar of making one individual happy. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:03
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    @Mistercookiebite: Basically, imagine you're a house-guest. Every downvote is someone telling you "hey, that thing you just did? Even though you think that's OK, it's really not OK." Eventually, when you do enough "not OK" things, the other people in the house tell you to leave. That's not being un-"welcoming"; it's simply requiring people to contribute positively. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:06
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    @Mistercookiebite: "I tried to make good contributions." I understand and appreciate that you tried. But you failed to do so; a lot (again, one bad post does not get you banned). We cannot keep allowing a person to screw up over and over again until they get it right. If we want a high-quality site, people who have failed to positively contribute have to be shown the door. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:10
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    @Mistercookiebite: the Jay Hanlon blog has been read by most all of us, and has been debated up and down on the meta site. Believe me when I say that most of us are quite aware of it, and it does expose an ongoing issue of how to be welcoming to newbies while maintaining site quality and ability of the site to self-moderate. This discussion will continue to develop over time, and tweaks to the site continually are being made to provide as good a balance as possible. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:13
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    @Mistercookiebite Go to stackoverflow.com/… and let SO employees know that you think that you should be allowed to post comments as answers indefinitely because of that blog post.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:14
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    @Mistercookiebite: no, not at all. On meta we vote on several things, including whether or not we agree with the premise of the poster. Many disagree with your premise which is their right to express. The voting on this question is not a vote against you personally. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:17
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    Votes on meta do flow more freely. That is because they cost no rep. It's also because they indicate disagreement. That people disagree with you does not mean it's hostile or unwelcoming. You actually have 5 'high rep' users who comment to help you out....that seems not hostile to me...
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:18
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    @Mistercookiebite I can appreciate that is a feeling, indeed. But no one shut you down, insulted or berated you. We just disagreed with you and explained why.... You say it yourself. 'people disagreed'. So anything less than 'yes you are 100% right' would be hostile? How can we express our disagreement without it being taken personally?
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:23
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    @Mistercookiebite: OK, so you say that this reception is "hostile". What would not be a "hostile" reception to you? Is agreement with you the only non-"hostile" response? Because agreement is equivalent to saying that we don't care about good contributions. Describe how we could not be "hostile" to you while still relating the substance of our posts (ie: that you did something bad and were punished appropriately). Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:25
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    @Mistercookiebite: "I just wanted to help the guy solve his issue." ... so? You weren't able to. Just move on to someone else's issue. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:26
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    @Mistercookiebite: "Of course I was able to. Until I got purged for formal reasons." So what you're saying is that you just want to help people, our rules be damned. Our rules are what make SO what it is. And if you can't follow them, then there are plenty of new users who can. We're not hostile to new users; we're against people who think the rules don't apply to them. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:32
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    But see that's the thing. You say the reception here is hostile. How would we express disagreement without you seeing it as hostile? This is the point I am trying to get. With the blog post a lot of users are complaining about hostility. I am trying to get better, and understand how to be ,not hostile' while still being enabled to speak my mind about these issues.
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:33
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    @Mistercookiebite: If enforcing community standards you don't agree with is hostile, then we are going to have to be hostile. And if that means that new users who won't follow the rules get turned away, that is a sacrifice I'm willing to accept. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:34
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    @mistercookiebite but in my mind what happened is proper. I expressed this already in comments. None of my comments are belittling, insulting or mean. You disagree with my stance.. How can I explain that without you beating me with a rubber hose saying I am hostile because I disagree with you?
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:36
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    @Mistercookiebite You said that "It feels very hostile indeed". People here were nice to you and patiently discussed the problem with you. You said that you wanted to help people, please explain why this meta post was hostile and how is it possible to disagree with you without being hostile? It might actually be helpful.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:50
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If I remember your answer correctly, there was another user and I who told you that your answer wasn't an answer. I posted a comment on your answer to explain that to you and I posted your answer as a comment for you. I think we have been nice to you.

Unfortunately, I can't see the question but my comment was an automatic comment:

This is really a comment, not an answer. With a bit more rep, you will be able to post comments. For the moment I've added the comment for you, and I'm flagging this post for deletion.

I don't think there is anything rude.

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I think we've fairly conclusively established that your actions were against the rules, so I won't get into that.

But let's start a discussion, here; what would you like to see happen? What can we do better about this experience? Should we not enforce our rules on answers? Can we explain the rules better? Should we not downvote them?

There are plenty of things we can do. The question is how those actions impact the overall quality of the site. So let's hear your take on how to make it better.

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    I'd like to tack on 'how we could have expressed disagreement in this meta question without you thinking negatively about it?'
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 17:24
  • @Patrice I know this is an old comment, but for posterity, it sounds like you're assuming the OP's reaction is entirely his fault, which I don't think is a fair assumption
    – joel
    Commented Oct 20, 2020 at 18:56
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You shouldn't have posted your comment as an answer, but downvotes on that non-answer weren't necessary. (But also not unexpected). Not-an-answer flags + a comment should be sufficient to point new users in the right direction.

This is exactly the kind of case where we could simply tell an over-eager new user (who clearly made a real effort to help) that they need to wait until they have 50 rep before commenting, please don't make a mess this way. Based on the fact that the comment included a link to a https://reverseengineering.stackexchange.com/ Q&A (i.e. the user is looking around on stackexchange sites and will hopefully figure out how we do things), I would have given @Mistercookiebite the benefit of the doubt that a comment + not-an-answer flag -> deletion would avoid repeat offences of comments-as-answers.

Re: the mess: Notice that the clarifications from the OP of the DLL question ended up as comments on the non-answer, not under the question. We really want edits to the question, but at least comments under the question are better than under an answer that needs to be deleted. It really did make a mess, and maybe hurt the chances of salvaging that unclear question more than it helped.)

It did lead to a mess, but the non-answer comment was actually the most useful thing anyone had yet added to the question, to ask for specific clarification. It would have been actively good and helpful as a comment. So it's very understandable for a beginner to want to bend/break the rules and post something helpful in those conditions. (Doesn't mean you won't get downvotes. And remember that votes aren't given for effort.)

If other comments had already requested more details (on this unclear question), there would have been much less excuse for bending the rules.

The flaw in the above reasoning is that it would require checking someone's history to see if they'd already done this before, and still weren't learning. The C and C++ tags especially have a low tolerance for poor questions (and apparently poor answers), because they get a LOT of traffic. Questions with both tags already put many people in a bad mood.

People aren't going take that much care to make sure you really deserve it before downvoting, especially when a post is obviously breaking the rules. Moderating the site to encourage the contributions we want and discourage those we don't takes time, and people are in a hurry when voting, too. Some people downvote even very good answers just because they're posted on bad questions, or IDK why. A downvote or two isn't normally the end of the world. (A temporary answer ban isn't the end of the world either; don't panic.)

I suspect most users who saw the non-answer in the hour or 2 between posting and deletion decided not to downvote. If it was actually bad as well as in the wrong place, it would have dropped much faster.

The two downvotes this got before being deleted (from a review queue) only resulted in a ban because of other poorly-received posts, and you could have deleted it manually after it got the first downvote. (You did know you were bending / breaking the rules and already had a previous downvoted question and answer, so it would have been a good idea to keep an eye on StackOverflow to see what happened here. I'm not trying to blame you here; maybe you didn't realize this would attract downvotes, or that downvotes would lead to a temporary ban. I'm pointing out other things you could have done, but maybe didn't realize at the time would have been a good idea.)

TL:DR: sit out your time in the penalty box and please try to find some good questions you can answer well, with clear explanations, to gain some rep before spending your time on questions that need improvement.

The SO system is designed this way to avoid a flood of noise from new users, because unfortunately a large fraction of new users are not interested in making helpful contributions the way you are. Please blame the help vampires and spammers that made us set up strict rules like this (with auto-bans and comment limits) and that taught us we need to aggressively downvote content that's doesn't belong.


For those who can't see deleted questions / answers:

question:

-3 score (totally deserved the downvotes: no MCVE or any way to answer)

I'm just curious to know how I can pack a DLL file so that it's hard to disassemble. It's in C++, but every time I try packing it, and I inject the DLL file into the game, it just crashes.

The DLL is for a GTA V mod menu in which I developed.

[dll]

(before an edit by @Peter Mortensen, was also tagged [c] and [c++])

  • comment: Define "pack". Please.
  • comment: Stargateur's repost of the non-answer as a comment.
  • more noise

non-answer from Mistercookiebite

-2 score
What exact error message do you get when you run your game/your compiled code? Why do you need to "inject" the dll? usually, you need to inject something into a dll from the outside (in order to reverse-engineer it, see https://reverseengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/13599/how-to-manipulate-game-which-loads-many-dlls)

This is actually a useful comment, and even includes a link to a possibly-related Q&A. The only problem here is that it was posted in the wrong place by an over-eager new user who doesn't know the ropes yet.

Obviously it shouldn't be upvoted, but I don't think it was necessary to downvote it, instead just flag it as not-an-answer. (Especially after @Stargateur helpfully reposted it as a comment.)

At that point @Mistercookiebite should have deleted the non-answer if they get the notification from comments on the non-answer in time. (IDK what order things happened.)

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