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So, I'm following up on this chat about JavaScript prostitution in the JavaScript chat room: https://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/42306421#42306421

Especially given "Stack Overflow isn't very welcoming" I have the following questions:

What policies have been violated?

This is the biggest question for me, because the code of conduct doesn't seem to be very clear on this. It's possible that this violates "Avoid vulgar terms and anything sexually suggestive", but even without sexually explicit material, this is so clearly not conducive to a welcoming environment. It doesn't seem like it meets the harassment line either as it's not aimed at anyone in particular.

Should users with more reputation be held to a higher bar?

For users with significant reputation on the site - what is the expected recourse from Stack Overflow? Similar to Twitter and its "verified users", folks with a lot of reputation carry a lot of weight and IMO the community largely reflects that as well. You can see in the conversation itself that one user comments,

"you've made 3 messages EVER."

to the individual bringing up that this is inappropriate - using the "I've been here longer and have more status" as a weapon.

What is Stack Overflow's recourse here?

It's not clear from any of the documentation what the expected response from Stack Overflow is here. Will these conversations be removed, or amended with commentary on how this is not welcoming behavior? What about the moderators? Should they be held accountable for these actions? In my opinion, it's bad for everyone when the boundaries, as well as the recourse for breaking those punishments, aren't clear. People who break the rules feel it's arbitrary, and folks who are being harassed or otherwise feel unwelcome don't have any reason to believe that things will change.

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    There is a solution. Let's all flag as spam/offensive. These messages should be removed from the chat forthwith. I'm not judge & jury, but in my opinion, these users should be banned for a week. They have rep to protect, so it matters. It may not be targeted abuse, but trivialising prostitution definitely doesn't fit under "Be Nice".
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 0:16
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    @jpp it's really awesome that we have upstanding citizens like yourself who are willing to pass judgement like this over others. This is how we will make Stack Overflow great again. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 0:34
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    As one of the users involved, I see how coming into this conversation is unwelcoming. The comments directly about prostitutes were a link to this Yahoo news article in comparison to a documentary suggesting the opposite. That conversation was over after those messages, moving into a discussion of whether that was against the rules.
    – ssube
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 0:43
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    @ssube, Yep, I know. I read the whole convo. It degenerated into opinions on pricing. The disappointing thing is you had the opportunity to admit it was stepping over the line. [And then we wouldn't have this Meta.] But, no, you have to defend.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 0:44
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    I don't think anyone took a stance on the articles, and I have a hard time discouraging someone from posting a news link. Perhaps not fit for this site, I certainly wouldn't call it a professional conversation, and I can see how it would be off putting or uncomfortable.
    – ssube
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 0:46
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    @AnilRedshift note that "you've made 3 messages EVER." was directly followed up by "So why do you think you get to set norms? Nobody was insulted.". Noting the fact that the person who objected was a new user wasn't an attempt to discredit them, merely an observation that the norms of the room are not necessarily along what the person who objected would prefer. This doesn't change much in the big picture but I dislike such inaccuracies/biases when you're taking a stance for a greater moral good. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 0:48
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    I have another question... Does Stack Overflow really need to run a chat server? Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 1:51
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    I think the ability to have open conversations about controversial topics is part of any healthy community. I've been part of plenty of those conversations in chat over the years, and I think they've helped me become a more mature person. Stack Overflow has the right to decide what is and isn't allowed in their chat rooms, and I'd certainly understand if they decided to disallow some category of controversy. It wouldn't make me happy though, and I'm fearful it would take away the freedom that made an active community in the first place. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 2:39
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    Why is this here? Why cannot the room owners deal with.. whatever? Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 2:56
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    I'm not convinced that we need a meta investigation every time some user does a drive-by in a chatroom and takes exception to something. If I don't like the room, I don't participate in it. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 3:03
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    @MartinJames, The problem isn't just that the conversation was had and the users got told off. They are now being told that it's absolutely fine. So I think this discussion is absolutely warranted.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 3:09
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    Its a link to a news article. This whole thing looks like some puritanical moral policing now
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 4:10
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    .... Wait, can someone explain to me how a group of people, being civil and discussing something (even if you don't like the topic) is unwelcoming? Please don't devolve to discuss if it was appropriate talk or not (haven't made my mind yet). I am debating the fact someone is using "unwelcoming". I kinda saw it coming, but since the blog post it feels like some users have given themselves the mandate to "clean up the site". I feel that is more unwelcoming. These users scour the site apparently to find content they can disagree with.... that doesn't feel conducive to, well, anything.
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 11:34
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    @Patrice it's the latest cool word to use when trying to take control of SO policy by an advantaged minority with primary agendas other than promoting good software development. 'hostile'-->'toxic'-->'unwelcome' :( These attempts at opressive censorship might stop when they run out of words. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 13:52
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    I’d like to point out that this user posting on Twitter has a potentially detrimental mob effect. According to what I’ve seen on twitter, we are all now misogynistic, racist, and messages are being taken out of context to make it look worse. This twitter reaction was immediate. And this question here naming specific users is not good at all. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 17:31

6 Answers 6

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I just posted about this on MSE in the context of those kinds of problems that seldom rear up, but when they do, they sure tend to make up for their absence.

Machavity points out something in this answer that hits home for me:

I marked these as invalid because I don't think the users need a 30 minute ban.

We as a company have to own up to the fact that the tools for chat moderation have been grossly under-par, and have been for a while. I have no additional excuses or anything else to say to that, so I'm going to just leave that there, in a place where we very clearly own it.

On the other hand, it makes me a tad bit hopeful. People knew something was wrong with what was being said; it was how to act on it that fell apart. Had no-one expressed any concern whatsoever, I think I'd be writing an answer that's quite a bit different than what I'm writing.

I need to point out that the user was just doing what we asked them to do:

Dialog

The guidance doesn't mention anything about how long you've been around, how many times you've talked in chat, what's 'normal' in JS chat, or anything else. It says read this policy and flag anything that clearly can't be reconciled with it. And we're not going to put more words in that dialog.

If and until we finally get chat moderation in a place where the options don't go from zero to semi-nuclear in under a second...

Treat chat like work. Respect the established culture, but also hold it accountable to our be-nice policy (AKA Code Of Conduct).

This means that you need to be prepared to be held accountable and be okay with it if you wish to use your chat privileges. Being held accountable isn't always negative. Rooms need to immediately self-censor if someone feels that the current line of conversation is out of line with what they'd expect from a mixed group of professionals speaking informally in an office setting.

Whether or not you feel that their feelings are valid, they have those feelings and if you're using our software, you need to respect that. This doesn't, however, mean you have to take blame or feel bad:

Sorry, we know each other pretty well and can make some assumptions about our intent that newcomers wouldn't feel comfortable making, thanks for pointing it out, we'll reel it in.

Let it end there. If there's a broader question of if something does or doesn't cross a line, stop the line of conversation and raise it here. We can't put a list of what's appropriate versus what's inappropriate together in a way that wouldn't attract rule lawyers like a giant bug light attracts moths. Instead, we can just offer guidance on how to know if things are going badly, and how to react.

Likewise, as a newcomer, respect the culture -- folks will make sure you feel safe and welcome, but you've gotta respect their limits too. No politics? No animated gifs? Those are the rules, if you want to change them, well, you're better off just creating your own room.

As long as there's clear evidence that the room community was diligent in making sure it course-corrected if things start going off the rails, we're not going to have a problem. What we're going to have are many learning experiences, and a stronger more inclusive culture.

But we can't have things blatantly burning like that again. Everyone's feelings matter here, including ones that feel a little bruised when a whole bunch of people point out everything they did wrong in hindsight. Blame doesn't really help things move forward.

But, for chat to remain a thing, we have to trust that everyone's goal is to avoid disruptions, which sometimes means that better culture sometimes means having certain kinds of conversation in a different, more exclusive setting.

We're not hosting an exclusive setting. And that's the best, most gentle way I can put it.

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    I know you're not looking to put more text in that welcome modal, but I really think it'd be better served by replacing the last sentence about Third Place with a 3rd numbered item saying something along the lines of "Chatrooms are created and managed by users like you. Remember, just because a room is named for one thing doesn't mean people only discuss one thing there!" so that new users are better aware immediately upon joining that chat is not hyper-focused, room-title-topic discussion only. Providing yet another link (SE sites have a big link problem, IMO) is wishful thinking at best.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:18
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    Thank you for responding and thank you for owning it. It means a lot to us that you were reasonable and didn't start accusing the room before becoming familiar with the details. I'd like to reiterate my request from the meta.se post here :) Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 19:40
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    At the risk of opening a can of worms, culture flows downhill. By that I mean that the CMs can influence the culture of the mods who influence the culture of the high rep users and all of that influences the overall culture. I assert that as preamble to my feedback that while the CMs acted appropriately in the case of the chat issues linked in Machavity’s answer, the way they explained (or didn’t explain) those actions to the community seems like a high level violation of the Be Nice policy. Just as we have to show understanding to new users about the rules, so should CMs. Commented May 2, 2018 at 4:41
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    (Continuing) As an analogy, imagine putting a new users off topic question on hold and then refusing to explain why to anyone. Saying “we are not talking about this any further” seems a bit disrespectful to the people who haven’t had a chance to talk about it but who are affected by it. Commented May 2, 2018 at 4:41
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    I have grave misgivings that this new "welcoming" push is going to be used as a bludgeon against any sort of perceived slight. I've already seen it happen several times since this all started: "Perhaps you should say 'it would be nice for you to read about this' instead of 'you should already know this.' Didn't you read the blog post?" If these folks manage to wring out every remaining trace of personality from chat, you might as well just shut it down completely.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 14:53
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    @Robert you are concerned with that about chat.... I think a fair portion of us are worried about that with the overall site :/...
    – Patrice
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 22:10
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    "It says read this policy and flag anything that clearly can't be reconciled with it." No it doesn't. It says to flag anything that makes you feel uneasy. That's a world of difference, especially in a culture that has gone to the extreme of declaring words that disagree with your views to be a form of violence in a few circles. Anyone can feel uneasy about anything. I could be talking about ice cream and someone gets uneasy because it reminds them of Bill Nye's ice cream sexuality video for gosh sakes. Feelings are a terrible metric by which to evaluate content.
    – jpmc26
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 0:35
  • if that is so, you should spend some time in C# chatroom and see how rude some are, i repeat SOME are but with power to new comers and insult around when the question if from obsolete technology such as: webforms or question is too basic even after efforts. Many left chat of SO because of this sole reason, i left this channel for the same reason. :)
    – ARr0w
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 13:39
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    What if the "offended" party is just trolling? Three people at office are sipping a coffee and discussing an article they read. It was about some shitty topic, but hey, it was on HN. Someone random passes by. Their first comment is "are you seriously talking about that? It's offensive, you shouldn't". Well, if this were to happen, I'd answer "who are you, and what do you want from us?" followed by "stop harassing us or we'll go to HR".
    – Sklivvz
    Commented May 5, 2018 at 12:48
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    Not "Oh sorry, you can tell us what we can or can't talk about". It's unacceptable to dictate what people can talk about. It's just pure bigotry and I can't in all my heart support it. That said, we can make an effort not to offend, but it can't be mandatory not to offend or to pamper to unreasonable requests. Obvious trolls get more support from SE than useful contributors, and this is what is making this place unwelcoming.
    – Sklivvz
    Commented May 5, 2018 at 12:54
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    And Tim, we both know perfectly well that it is true. We talked about it many times, I gave you tons of examples. Mods get insulted by trolls on twitter about their SE work? We don't do anything here. Why? And this is a perfect example of someone putting up an incredible shitstorm to be "right" in a stupid, irrelevant, idiotic chat conversation which was not problematic.
    – Sklivvz
    Commented May 5, 2018 at 12:58
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    The "see something that makes you uneasy" flagging guideline seems like it could be misinterpreted. There are many things that could make specific people uneasy but should be perfectly fine to talk about. Should a PHP programmer flag comments about PHP being a crappy language? Should a christian be able to flag comments about anything that is not in line with a hardcore interpretation of the bible, e.g. evolution? Should a lactose intolerant person flag people chatting about cheese? I don't think any of these flags would be acceptable, so maybe the message should be reworded.
    – l4mpi
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 11:13
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As someone who hangs out in chat, this isn't toxic. This is what toxic chat looks like and how SO deals with it. So nobody is ignoring toxic chat.

The chain of events here is

  1. Someone linked an article about wealthy (and apparently lonely) guys spending a ridiculous sum of money to have women "coach" them. It's somewhat amusing and not offensive
  2. Another user noted that it was akin to prostitution. Maybe not the best comparison, but not inappropriate
  3. Several users said they wouldn't pay that much for a prostitute. Unsavory but we'll come back to this
  4. A new user came in, dropped a link, and tried to stop the conversation

So, going back to #3, the topic was unsavory. Maybe not the best for SO. But SO gives us limited tools to deal with it. We can

  1. Flag it and have 10k+ users sustain that flag. The offending message(s) are deleted and the users are banned from chat for 30 mins per sustained flag (mods can ban them as long as they like)
  2. Deal with it internally. Talk to people and suggest they not talk like that
  3. Leave the room

The problem the new user faced is he chose to dial it to 11

are we really discussing strippers and prostitutes!? seriously

He then links the contentious blog entry and... uhm... well, he wasn't actually treated badly. At all.

@real_ate we are, civilly and respectfully

And the full context of the quote here was

@real_ate you've made 3 messages EVER.
So why do you think you get to set norms? Nobody was insulted.

So imagine you're chatting and someone suddenly interrupts to wave a blog entry in your face. I can understand why they got curt (impressively, they didn't get rude). But understand that the new user did this the wrong way. Instead of interacting with people to change the subject, they linked the blog to imply

Hey guys, you're the reason for this blog post

If you don't like the topic, say so respectfully. If you get a rude response, flag it. But flagging the lines he disagreed with doesn't help, because the messages are shown without context.

enter image description here

I marked these as invalid because I don't think the users need a 30 minute ban. It was unsavory and if there were some intermediate "delete this without a ban" I might be more inclined to do that instead, but we don't get that option. Only a mod can delete chat over 2 minutes old without a flag/ban.

If they still won't change the subject, just leave the room. Nobody is forcing you to sit in there and watch people talk crassly about the going rate of prostitutes. You've said your piece, I would leave it at that.

If the conversation turns in the direction of

  1. Insulting/attacking other users directly
  2. Describing in detail what prostitution involves (or other directly rude things)

then feel free to flag. That's what they're there for. But don't sail in and demand a topic change to start with. That will never go well, regardless of the room.

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    Also, for the JavaScript room specifically, we have a GitHub issue tracker where issues like this can be discussed. See chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/42318633#42318633. I'll bring this up with the maintainers of our bot, as I think it would be useful to add to the message new users get when they join. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 2:51
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    Your opening paragraph is the fallacy of relative privation. I agree that SO doesn't have good tools around this - I'm talking about a culture change, not deleting one-off messages. I would be interested in hearing what other tools you think would be useful in a situation like this. I disagree with the premise of "If they still won't change the subject, just leave the room." That normalizes an environment that is marginalizing. It is what keeps people out of these spaces, and is THE reason things should change. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 2:54
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    'It is what keeps people out of these spaces' - it seems it didn't keep you out? Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 3:05
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    @AnilRedshift: So... are you saying that the blog post gives people the right to drop into a chat room that has gone off topic and declare that the new topic has begun "marginalizing" people and must immediately be dropped? Because no one person should have that right. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 3:16
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    @NicolBolas I am saying that commentary about pricing around prostitutes is wholly inappropriate for a professional or enthusiast javascript chat channel. As to who has the right to police the channel, I think it should be structural, rather than one person dropping in. The structure failed in this case. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 3:17
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    @AnilRedshift the room has apparently decided that whatever happened was not inappropriate, so there is no subject. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 3:22
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    I mean, you could run for room owner and so gain some control that way, but I don't fancy your chances. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 3:23
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    @AnilRedshift: There are no structural systems in chat because... it's chat. It's freeform. There are rules, not structures. Now as for what is or is not appropriate for a Javascript chat channel, it's my understanding (I don't go to chat, because I despite chat in all its forms) that chat channels go off-topic pretty much all the time. That's just the nature of the beast. It's an area for people who code Javascript to talk about stuff. That stuff may be Javascript or it may not. So I'm not sure what is more inappropriate about prostitute pricing than about any other OT dalliance. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 3:28
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    "Just leave" is a poor solution. Either SO wants to be a comfortable place for women or it doesn't. Right now, the community seems like it very much does not. If that's the case, SO will eventually get overtaken by some other website.
    – Mark White
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 1:49
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    @MarkWhite I'm not sure what you're getting at, but not every topic that makes people uncomfortable is worthy of a moderation action. If you join a room and you try to have an adult conversation, but the room doesn't go along, "just leave" is the adult thing to do. I don't understand this insistence that every conversation in every chat room must make all demographics feel "welcome" (an ill-defined term). Understand that if this conversation had gone further mod action would have been taken
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 2:09
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    @Machavity It is not that everyone has to feel comfortable always; you and I both know that inaccurately captures what I’m saying. What I’m getting at is that tolerating that type of “locker room talk” is a symptom of and reproduces programming spaces as “boys clubs.” It is that the things discussed cause minorities disproportionately more discomfort. What does talking about prostitutes have to do with JavaScript? Nothing. The only purpose of that conversation is homosocial bonding.
    – Mark White
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 2:26
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    By the way Mark, you assumed the participants in that discussion were men - regardless of whether or not the discussion itself is appropriate I’m not sure that’s a correct assumption in this case. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 5:12
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    @MarkWhite you might be surprised to find out that woman's rights/feminist organizations are at the forefront of pushing for the legalization and destigmatization of sex work, these days (which is its own very marginalized and discriminated group). As long as discussion is respectful and non-toxic, I think your assertion that such discussion is immediately unwelcoming to women is both sexist and patronizing.
    – mbrig
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:14
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    @mbrig "You might be surprised" is the tone that people are talking about that turns so many people off to SO. I am not surprised, because I'm very much aware of this information, and I support it myself! It's kind of clever to try and turn the tables and make me the real sexist because I'm being patronizing, but I'm not buying it, sorry. It's a hackneyed technique people have been using for years.
    – Mark White
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 16:22
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    @TylerH I want to avoid saying that topical channels can never veer off course. I don't want to fault them for going OT like Sam did, I don't want to say their topic was a good one (it wasn't), and I don't want to say that a user going into a channel to demand the topic change is a good idea (it isn't). I still don't get why this couldn't have been handled by the user opening with Hey guys, I'm new here. I'd like to talk about some JS instead of prostitutes. It's amazing how responsive people (outside Lounge C++) can be to gentle correction. Heck, I've had a chat vet once do that to me
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 18:30
49

Just for posterity here is my personal point of view and what it looks like from an involved party:

About the user in particular

I have reached out to the user in person and collected feedback as well as invited them to share more information about their experience. Here is our public discussion in chat.

Chris was offended and I think they felt better after the discussion or at least that's what they wrote on twitter. They have also been kind enough to reach out via email. Due to privacy I cannot disclose anything from there without permission but I think things are better. They have also posted an encouraging message on twitter.

I have invited them to participate in the room at a future point after reading the room rules and they're welcome to do so at their discretion.

We have further discussed this in chat and on our GitHub yet. Unfortunately it was done in a private repository due to the privacy of humans involved. We have made the entire discussion available to SE moderators via two moderators who are also room regulars.

I generally agree with the statements in the upvoted answer regarding whether the discussion itself was OK but I'm not a fan of how we handled it and we're working towards a better process.

Regarding the prior room owner in twitter

I also approached the previous room owner who tweeted name calling the room. They had no problem being very unwelcoming to users before and then disappeared from the room during the time of our shift towards a more open culture. It is possible that's where their impression was from.

It is unfortunate that they felt compelled to mock this community who has helped them in public. They promptly resorted to name calling and attacking me so I've regretfully had to block them and let them know they're no longer welcome in the room after they called me a "bad person" for trying to understand why we were attacked.

I have again made the entire discussion available to SE moderators as well as a few of said user's more troubling messages from the past.

About culture in general

Quoting Loktar:

Past, present, and new users, we have a repo for issues related to room culture, if you have issues with the room please post there we welcome the discussion!

That repo is here: https://github.com/JavaScriptRoom/culture/

We try our best to be respectful. Here is our additional code of conduct which is in my opinion at least more restrictive than Stack Overflow's (and of course, comes in addition).

Mistakes happen

A fellow answer pointed out misguided discussion from some time in chat. I would like to encourage any user who sees a message as problematic to speak up. We do not censor respectful discussion of touchy subjects and we care a lot about not letting people express themselves.

However, we have a strict policy regarding off-topic: drop it immediately if another user asks you to.

Indeed, the discussion was dropped - however instead of communicating that fact to the user above we started a discussion about what's appropriate. This is unfortunate though I don't hold Jhawins or ssube at fault for it.

I think we're getting mixed signals of "kick often" and "be welcoming" due to our exposure to abuse from trolls and we've become too trigger happy. I intend to try and reach a more friendly culture overall.

About sensitive topics

As the most upvoted at the moment answer states:

If you don't like the topic, say so respectfully. If you get a rude response, flag it. But flagging the lines he disagreed with doesn't help, because the messages are shown without context.

Again, we'll do our best to improve, you are also encouraged to reach out. Be willing to accept we might not be 100% in agreement with you.

About chat in general.

We like chat. We've had some cool things happen in chat over the years:

  • We've had two room owners become boyfriend and girlfriend, they've been together for quite some time now and I look forward to be in their wedding. They both wrote some pretty popular open source projects.
  • We've had room owners go on to write popular libraries you've probably heard of and used. I can name at least 3-5 in the top 1000.
  • We've used the room to coordinate education efforts and push canonicals.
  • We've used the room to promote good answers and reference material.
  • I've personally met a bunch of friends in the room - leading to working together with two in my job and I'm not the only case.

In fact, I'd attribute my 700+ answers in the tag to the room and in turn the fact Node.js has good promise debugging support. I talk about this (and the room) here.

I think a nice reminder about the room is that as unwelcoming as we are we have a nice and helpful representation of people of Indian descent, LGBT, women, middle eastern and white and it has never been an issue.

I'm definitely in favor of the JavaScript room - although like any big space it has its issues. We realize we can go elsewhere on slack/irc/miaou/whatever - we just like it here and hope you like us back.

This and Stack Overflow

We're trying to minimize Stack Overflow's staff involvement in this particular instance. Not because we don't like them - because we do. We mostly think it's a waste of their time and if I were them I wouldn't want to deal with it.

Whenever a community manager gets to chat it means we've caused trouble - and even if it's not our fault it's our responsibility to try to minimize that which is why we're open to feedback.

I don't know, I guess I'm a little post traumatic due to random people on twitter abusing members in Node.js and I don't want to encourage a situation like that here. In Node.js people actually had to take time off due to mental stress and it had a severe impact on their mental health at times.

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    I was planning on posting an answer this morning, but I think this covers most of it. The initial conversation was unwelcoming, and over quickly. We should have been less defensive and should not have assumed the newcomer was trolling.
    – ssube
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 17:18
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    I'm sure there's no good answer, but I'm curious if you have any thoughts about potential unintentional unfairness of "drop it" requests. For example, a trans person talking about certain important aspects of their life might be more likely to get shut down than others whose lives don't provoke such controversy.
    – Cascabel
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 19:56
  • @Cascabel I think that's a bridge we'll have to cross when we get there. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 20:02
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    Very expressive, as always. I agree with you. Love u, Ben.
    – Neoares
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 8:49
  • @Cascabel well, if its an appropriate site, or a known person, it would be better. A random person talking about that on say, SU's chat or pets would be odd unless its someone who's a core part of the community. In a sense as with any 'rule' we need common sense, and a certain community consciousness to apply. Commented May 7, 2018 at 10:39
  • @JourneymanGeek In my experience there are a lot of chats where people talk about their daily lives.
    – Cascabel
    Commented May 7, 2018 at 14:16
  • Ours is one. And I actually have a few qualifiers here - primarily cause of that. Commented May 7, 2018 at 15:00
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The chat rooms are like the couple tables and easy chairs under the stairs, next to the vending machines, outside any development lab. People come and go, drink their coffee, eat their choc bars and cake, and chat.

They may talk about work, management, relationships, rumours, affairs, beer and maybe laugh at some ridiculous news items that someone found while browsing. You may say 'Hi', and try and join in some conversation, or just sit there and contemplate some debugging approach to try next. It's up to you.

You are suggesting that it's fine to interrupt a discourse and lay into them for discussing stuff that you didn't want to overhear. That it's OK to then email the managers and tell them that discussing office affairs is upsetting and unwelcome, and demanding that they put up a notice over the machines 'Discussion of anything other than directly work-related subjects is forbidden, this area is being monitored, and any violations will be met with disciplinary action'.

The predictable result if that actually happened: 40 resignation notices and an empty lab, pics of the warning notice circulated on social media, citing 'invasive censorship', etc., sundry lawsuits and nobody wanting to work for the company ever again.

What would much more likely happen: you would be politely asked to resign by the managers, and if you disagree, you will be given an out-of-the-way office, pure documentation work and passed over for promotion forever.

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    Alternatively: the chat rooms are actually conference rooms, and everybody's been misusing them the whole time, and if you want the tables/chairs scenario, you can bring your own tables/chairs e.g. set up a Slack group for your m8s innit. Just because SO is about programming doesn't mean all programmers have to do all their interaction under its web domain Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:53
  • 1
    But they are also effectively 100% public (unlike IRC). Commented May 2, 2018 at 14:05
7

Long time room owner, chat user and SU mod here (and if It is who I think it is - I actually had a talk with Anil over twitter over the subject). I'm pondering a longer post on MSE where it belongs but I'd like to bring up a few points.

In my experience, effective chat moderation is about building up a long term, healthy relationship with users and building an environment where we can communicate effectively with each other. In a sense, this was literally a cascading failure of elements that have worked well, at least informally.

I've had rooms where I've felt I've spectacularly succeeded (Root Access), and spectacularly failed (I could have done better recently elsewhere). I've also seen a few communities splutter out and die due to bad moderation.

A core rule I've often suggested on Root Access is "we try to deal with things ourselves". This dosen't mean that we sweep things under the rug.

I'd like to start off, before even talking about what works for us is... quite a few folks involved didn't assume good intent. With entirely noble reasons, I'm sure, but that's kind of the heart of the problem. We really should when examining things like this - since well, its a core part of the network wide moderation policy. There's extenuating factors for everyone concerned.

The first level of escalation is... talking it out. "Hey, I'm new here, and I'm a little uncomfortable with the current topic" would have been an awesome starting point. I think many people who I chat it are familiar with me occasionally going "Language!" or "dude, not cool". Ideally, this actually turns the chat to "Oh I'm sorry". I guess things got escalated here because of a series of unfortunate incidents and misunderstandings I do get a little frustrated at some of the after effects of the blog posts, and the goal here is to sort things out without an appeal to power.

The second level is a flag. While there's a running joke about the blue tide, very often its handled quietly, though sometimes a mod drops in. I suppose SO has the advantage of not having a distinction between "local" and "non local mods" - but as a mod I actually help act as a liason between folks on my chatroom and others. We set expectations "Hey, deleting 110 lines was a tiny bit excessive" or "Oh, that guy's a troublemaker. If he acts up again please throw the book at him and let me know"

If that fails, the contact us link - though times for this can be variable. I've had a cm have a chat with me over someone I suspended in about a half hour, or sometimes... things take longer.

Sometimes I guess things don't work as planned. We have perfect storms. We have folks on edge already over something unrelated that the gentleman who complained on twitter didn't know about. We have a few folks who kind of conflate being nicer and more inclusive with being less.. focused. And there's folks who just want to see the world burn. And its hard to tell.

Assume good intent is a core of our moderation policy. And.. we failed hard there. We had folks talk about a subject that probably could have been diverted at any point. We had a new user come in, take offence, and point out a blog post from SO corporate. We had folks assume he was a troll, cause that kept happening.

Then...

We kind of skipped all that and went straight to twitter. I admit, it was effective. It got the conversation going, it got attention... it completely bypassed the entire community. Which I suppose could be justified, but it also seems to have polarised the community. That said, there's literally no way a new user would have known how to escalate it, so.. we failed there.

Effective chat moderation is much more about holding communities together and building healthy shared spaces where people feel safe and free to talk, than to try to get people to account. Yes, this was a regrettable incident, but it feels a lot like basically every single one of the processes we used... failed.

However this wasn't a total failure. There's been a few rooms on SE that have been actually toxic and needed to go. We have the important elements of actual resolution here - I've seen Benjamin Gruenbaum run the network around talking to folks trying to resolve it. This is an opportunity to examine and make things better.

And these things shouldn't really be a "these people are terrible". Its not a witchhunt. Something Happened and this should be an opportunity for all involved to learn from it.

So, escalation processes are in place - this is quite literally a result of cascading failures in them,

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    While I see it wasnt meant to be a witchhunt.. Things didnt turn out that way
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented May 7, 2018 at 6:29
-24

Wow...

The fact that

Someone linked an article about wealthy (and apparently lonely) guys spending a ridiculous sum of money to have women "coach" them. It's somewhat amusing and not offensive

Is somehow considered "norm" and "fine" in the context of chat room that is there to discuss JavaScript and is hosted by Stack Overflow boggles my mind.

This is not ok, this is not fine. Stack Overflow should step in and correct this. It is not ok to make porn jokes (happened later in the day in the same channel) in a medium that is endorsed and sponsored by Stack Overflow intended for inclusive technical discussions.

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    Actually the rules of the room says The room title is JavaScript, which only implies we all have some interest in the language. That does not strictly limit the topic of conversation to JavaScript, and often it is not about JavaScript. Please do not inturrupt and complain about this, if you have a comment about the language toss it in and if someone is interested they will stop and help.
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 4:07
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    As a co-founder of discourse, are you impartial enough to tell Stack Overflow they have no business running chat servers? I don’t think so.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 5:44
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    Hi Sam, it is unfortunate that you got just that type of glimpse and not more. The post here implies that prostitution is a common discussion topic in chat but in >5 years here this is the first time I've seen it discussed. We do discuss quite a lot of JavaScript and room owners include kind people who went on to write interesting open source libraries. Chat is used by ~40-50 people who mostly coordinate it to answer questions and contribute to the site effectively. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 7:10
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    the... onion article?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 7:19
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    Yes, but the fact this is fine in JavaScript room bugs me a lot, and the reactions also bug me a lot Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 7:23
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    By all means, anyone is free to open their own JavaScript room in chat - the room is not an "official" room by any chance and members are welcome to start a second room with their own culture and viewpoints of the world. In particular a room where linking to "the onion" is not allowed. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 8:04
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    After linking the onion this was said: " just restrict them to missionary, no midget nugget porn for them had to make sure i was typing that into the right chat".... LOL LOL LOL this is so hilarious LOL LOL LOL... @BenjaminGruenbaum are you able to realise how this can be "not that welcoming" ... by allowing you to set whatever rules you want Stack Overflow are endorsing this. Moderating this stuff is hell. Is this really adding value to the network. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 8:41
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    @SamSaffron 'Stack Overflow are endorsing this' no, they are not. 'Endorsement' is a specific affirmative action, not tolerating the occasionally irreverent treatment of some chat posts about some issue with a news item about prostitiution and/or escort services. SO did NOT endorse theose posts, and it's misleading disingenuous of you to suggest it is. I would be more concerned if the chatters did not treat the news with irreverence and mirth. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 13:37
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    Couple of notes... Chat is not required to be ruthlessly on-topic; that defeats the purpose of a place for socialization between folks with a shared interest on the main site. Discussion of industry news is precisely the sort of watercooler pap that chat was made for - but that doesn't excuse the crude comments that followed, and Chris was more than generous in how he approached the situation; getting kicked was not an appropriate response.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:17
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    ...and... That was probably my fault. The JS room is one of the most active rooms in chat right now, and has lately been the target of repeated attacks by trolls and users with an axe to grind about something on the main site. I'd advised them to be quick to kick disruptive users rather than letting them derail the conversation, which I still believe is good advice in general, but not applicable in this specific situation. Based on what I've seen here and elsewhere, I believe we need an explicit "whistleblower" policy to cover such situations, encouraging self-reflection and correction.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:21
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    This has come up before, @benjamin; I think we're due for a less confusing path for new users to call out problems. Write up a feature request, please
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:37
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    Downvoting in meta only expresses agreement or disagreement and not usefulness. There is nothing negative about a downvotes answer on meta I have several. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 20:36
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    Resetting votes on a answer is not something that's going to happen, @SamSaffron. That just something SO doesn't (ever) do.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 7:37
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    I downvoted this answer - not because I don't appreciate the discussion but because I disagree with the premise that you get to ping our community manager without ever attempting to participate in chat because you're friends with management (as if Shog's really at fault here...). I find that rude and it also paints an incredibly one-sided picture and buys into harassment we're receiving over social media. I like the fact you're trying to help but I have no intent of encouraging something that I don't believe contributes to the healing. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 8:36
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    I've never cleared votes on a meta post; I try to learn from the mistakes of my forebears when possible. That said, the traditional solution here is self-service: if you're making substantial revisions to a much-downvoted answer, just post a new answer (and optionally delete the original). Also: the nature of chat in image form
    – Shog9
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 2:50

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