56

The recent blog post brings up some important observations about the Stack Overflow community.

In particular, the paragraph about bias suggests to me that it is often possible to know another user's gender or race. For example,

We don’t tolerate our female users being called “sweetie” or getting hit on.

This type of bias requires one user to be able to identify another user in such a way:

  • How common is it to be able to determine another user's gender or race? Is inferring from the username and avatar the only method?

To monitor it, SO needs to be able to measure it:

  • Is even possible to be able to link unwelcome behaviour with bias against a particular gender or race? Does Stack Overflow record the data to do this?

I don't think SO has the means to do this, so:

  • Should there be a mechanism, e.g. specific flags, to track these particular events?
24
  • 12
    The blog post you refer to simply states that they know such gender bias happens because people tell them how they feel. So no gender identification is required.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:40
  • 8
    @Mithrandir: Take a guess then with my typing style and username and description. I'll give you three guesses. ;)
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:40
  • 79
    people "feeling" marginalized doesn't necessarily mean that they are being marginalized. There's nothing wrong with working on ways to reduce the likelihood that people "feel" marginalized if it doesn't negatively impact the overall.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:41
  • 4
    But clearly Stack Exchange does not.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:42
  • 2
    @Makoto that's missing the point. One specific example is not indicative of everyone on the site or network. Some users present with their real names, links to their sites and Twitter and Linked in...
    – Catija
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:45
  • 4
    @Catija: I'm merely poking holes in a very fallacious argument. You can't really infer much on the Internet based on any set pattern or set "norm". I mean, my actual Twitter is linked, but I use this pseudonym everywhere I go online. It's kinda funny to see what "norm" I fall into when people think they can accurately identify my gender and race. They usually get one right, but not the other. (Trust me when I tell you this wasn't a trick question.)
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:50
  • 43
    Up until that blog post, I'd totally downvote this with "We should not care!" comment. But now... things changed. I see Stack Overflow turning into social network, and guess it's either adjust or leave, for most veteran users. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:05
  • 9
    I think, in a way, it doesn't matter if you know. We can flag sexist/racist comments whether or not the commenter made a correct assumption about the person it was directed toward. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:10
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    @Makoto think I've deciphered your secret code there - your real name is Tom Oak and you're actually a tree...? Seems more likely than Moo Kat anyway :p
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:11
  • 12
    @Vega omg, you can't account for colloquialisms. Where I'm from colleagues call each other "mate" regardless of gender, you can't be offended by that, it's just silly.
    – user692942
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:41
  • 13
    Don't know, don't care. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 0:24
  • 107
    The compiler doesn't care. The linker doesn't care. The bugs don't care. I don't care. SO should not care. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 0:39
  • 7
    My compiler complained about this: "We know what people feel because they tell us", but the linked bias test says "people don't always say what they think, and sometimes aren't even conscious of what they think". If I feel that this is incoherent, does that count? :)
    – Benjol
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 6:46
  • 3
    @ShadowWizard there's a big difference between "put in some effort to make others feel more comfortable being here" on the one side and "make it a social network" on the other.
    – Ben Barden
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 18:04
  • 5
    Even at the risk of offending others ("in order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive") : I sometimes think that exactly the people who care most about gender and race are, in some sense, more sexist and racist than those who simply come here to answer questions and do not care about the skin color and genitalia of others. It might be a wrong impression, but it's my impression.
    – Marco13
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 18:21

8 Answers 8

46

The only gender and race information about a user is that which the user chooses to reveal about themselves. This could be as obvious as the image they use as their avatar, their name being stereo-typically female or male or including a link to their Facebook profile in their profile here.

However, bear in mind that people can choose any image they like as their avatar and are under no obligation to use their real name.

While users can sign up using Facebook, Twitter or Google which would potentially reveal more information about them, this information is only available to employees with diamond access and moderators. As this is not public information we are under strict rules not to reveal it. Additionally PII is hidden by default and access is logged as well, so unless we have a good reason to check this information we just don't see it.

Remember on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog

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    Sorry, the "on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog" used to work for long years but not any more. SE management made it crystal clear: they want Stack Overflow to be more social, we should know in advance the gender and race of every new user in order to greet them properly. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:07
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    @ShadowWizard: Not sure if sarcastic...
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:29
  • 12
    @RobertHarvey kind of "Prepare for the worst, hope for the best". Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 23:39
  • 1
    @ShadowWizard and their account numbers and PINs. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 0:22
  • I'd link to the moderator agreement
    – gparyani
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 2:33
  • 2
    So what you are saying is that the people discriminating users because of gender and ethnicity are most likely the diamond mods and SO employees, who are the only ones with the tools needed to do it? Assuming of course, that there is actually discrimination taking place and that it isn't just something a confused blogger made up by themselves.
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 7:59
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    @Lundin that's a strange conclusion to leap to. No, what I'm saying is that unless the user reveals this information it's hard to find.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:02
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    Alright, so then it seems we must have a large group of users who participate actively in detective work just to find out users gender and ethnicity, in order to be able to discriminate them. That sounds pretty serious! Assuming of course, that there is actually discrimination taking place and that it isn't just something a confused blogger made up by themselves.
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:05
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    @Lundin I don't know. This is only my speculation, but perhaps it's those users with recognisable avatars and names or obvious links to other platforms where they can be identified that are experiencing the problem. i.e. there's little or no detective work required and other user's biases and prejudices are showing.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:09
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    @ShadowWizard Just use gender-neutral greetings.
    – user202729
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:55
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    I was going to start referring to all users as "human" from now on to avoid any biases but seeing as we have dogs to it seems calling someone anything other than their username is going to cause problems.... Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 9:27
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    @TheLethalCoder ..and I forsee all kinds of problems if any of the dogs identify themselves as female. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 9:44
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    @MartinJames I'm actually a vegetable, not sure if that causes any problems either. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 9:59
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    @Shadow Wow, that first comment aged... prophetically Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 14:45
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    @Félix lol totally forgot about this. It was the beginning of the Welcome Wagon, yeah... and looks like SE did even worse than the worst I was prepared for. That's quite the achievement. Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 14:56
32

When I started my career more than 10 years ago, I decided I wanted a professional presence on the Internet. I have a blog, a Twitter account, and a Stack Overflow profile, all with my name and photo, and with links between them.

So far, this has had a positive impact on my career. I've had job proposals coming from people who've found me on Stack Overflow. One recruiter even looked for Israeli Stack Overflow profiles, and said I've had the most reputation (which was wrong, I'm about 10th, but that's still pretty good). Sometimes my colleagues find an answer on Stack Overflow and see my name on it - that's pretty neat. I've even had an interview a few years back where a manager asked me a question, and I quickly found one of my top answers and sent it to them - this answer is a small article really, and still one of my favorite answers.
It is also worth noting that when you apply to a job through Stack Overflow, this is directly linked to your account.

Today I have over 100,000 points in Stack Overflow, and my profile is proudly presented front and center in my resume.

To answer the question: Yes, it is possible to know the gender, race, age, and nationality of many users by looking at their name, photo, and location. You don't need to look any further than that for any additional hints.

It is absolutely your right not to do any of these things if you don't want to.

However, we have a real problem when people are driven toward hiding their identity because of the way they are treated. The negative experiences that are refereed to in the blog post are real and come from women who did share their name and photo.

There is an undertone to this question which I don't appreciate. I hope that is not what you meant, but that is what I think when I read this question - it is the suggestion that people open themselves for abuse by revealing too much about themselves, and therefore they are partly to blame. There are certainly places on the Internet where you know having your identity posted will lead to hostile behavior, but Stack Overflow should never be one of them.

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    Regarding your last comment, absolutely not. Will edit to be more clear. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 9:04
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    "The negative experiences that are refereed to in the blog post are real and come from women who did share their name and photo." How do you know this, though? It's what some blogger says, without telling how they know this. It is written so it must be true? There is indeed an undertone in this question but you failed to grasp it: people who are hurt because they wrote a question poorly received at SO, was most likely poorly received because the question was bad, not because they had a photo on their profile.
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 11:14
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    And then of course when that happen, people decide for themselves which "truth" they prefer: "The truth is I don't know how to write proper question" or "The truth is that I was discriminated by elitist douchebags on the internet because I am x". The latter "truth" is convenient, they can blame someone else and it doesn't affect their self-image.
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 11:17
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    @Lundin - It is also a convenient truth that Stack Overflow has no problems, and that like you suggest - all of this is related to bad or poor questions. I am 100% convinced this is not the case, and 100% sure these are real problems that Stack Overflow can do something about. Just so we're clear: the criticism is not limited to beginners, or to a specific blog post.
    – Kobi
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 11:36
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    @Kobi No, the root of the problem is that veteran experts signed up for the site many years ago because they wanted to help/get helped from their fellow colleagues in the trade. SO was directly aimed to replace another such site - Code Project. Nobody back then signed up to be volunteer teachers. Around the same time that Atwood was phased out, SO shifted from Q&A for programmers to Q&A for people learning programming/communication. To get traffic. This decision were taken by the SO company and shown down the throat of the users. The quality of the site has been in rapid decline since then.
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 11:59
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    @Lundin I know because I've seen them, mainly on twitter, but also elsewhere, in the past years. See medium.com/@Aprilw/suffering-on-stack-overflow-c46414a34a52 Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:08
  • 7
    Right... but what proof is there that this... "suffering" is happening because they're female? Rude and abusive comments get flagged and dealt with. What's left is the act of moderating and comments that skirt under the radar. We can get better at dealing with both of those, but neither are limited to someone's gender or race.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 15:28
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    The one time someone questioned me about one of my answers, I couldn't even remember answering the question and in particular the one detail they were looking for... Fail. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 18:26
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    Well said - Kobi There are certainly places on the Internet where you know having your identity posted will lead to hostile behavior, but Stack Overflow should never be one of them. Unfortuantley Stack Overflow is such a place. I would never link my real life to this site. Hopefully someday things will change. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 1:30
  • @KevinB When you have a jungle where dog eats dog, those not in dominant/privileged groups are the most likely preys Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 9:39
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    @MarioTrucco you mean, like skilled and experienced developers who volunteer time to answer questions and moderate SO? Such people may well be privileged, but are not dominant. They are like bears. They are strong, powerful and can take on almost anything on-on-one but, ATM, they are being pack-hunted by dogs, and will lose. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:11
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Is it even possible to be able to link unwelcome behaviour with bias against a particular gender or race? Does Stack Overflow record the data to do this?

That sounds suitably Orwellian. No, Stack Overflow does not ask for race or gender information from registrants, nor should they.

We don’t tolerate our female users being called “sweetie” or getting hit on.

You can make that statement truthfully without data.

A lot of it has to do with context. I'd personally be put off by being called sweetie too, if it was done in a condescending way.

7
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    SO has social media sign-in options, who knows what can be scraped. I have added a third question about tracking these events, I hope that makes it clearer where I was leading with the question. Commented Apr 26, 2018 at 22:56
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    Gotta be honest, @geometrikal... that sounds really creepy.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 1:59
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    Well, that’s what went through my mind, immediately. The policy should be “We don’t tolerate anyone being called ‘sweetie’…”, though there is a very high likelihood that something indicated the user as female before being called “sweetie”, but it’s actually not worth to be investigated by the mods, as derogatory form of address should not be allowed in general.
    – Holger
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:59
  • Robert, I would never call you sweetie :) but other terms like "dude" or "man" when you don't know the person aren't very polite either. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 9:26
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    I really detest people using 'dude' or 'bro' and their ilk, and get slightly annoyed by things like 'mate'. I'd honestly prefer to be called sweetie over one of those, but maybe that is just the Doctor Who fan in me. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 19:34
  • @MarkRotteveel Are you all being a tad sensitive? What is the problem with being called dude, bro or man? Ignore it. Commented Jul 4, 2018 at 11:09
  • @RuiFRibeiro To me being addressed like that feels like I'm being disrespected and it assumes an unwanted level of familiarity. I'm not your dude, nor your bro nor your 'man'. Commented Jul 4, 2018 at 11:15
13

No, we don't ask people to reveal their gender, and I speculate that we never would. Quite honestly from a security perspective alone, the less we know about you personally, the better we both are. If you think about the principle of least privilege, it makes sense from an information standpoint too.

From a perspective of understanding organizations in general, and how your efforts to attract the most diverse group possible might be panning out, it is useful to know this type of thing. But we don't need to ask you for it when we can do an analysis on a subset of our data where we can be at least 95% certain that we're sure of the user's gender, run reports on how people interact with the site and what seems to make them leave, and then continue iterating based on what we learn.

But that's just a matter of looking at email addresses to see if we can figure out with high certainty if you're a male or female, or seeing if the email is associated with a social profile that indicates gender. But we'd never store this information outside of a temporary table that's used to associate posts to gender instead of posts to users, which is still completely anonymous, and vanishes once the query runs.

And, well, there's the argument that knowing the subset of your users that well might lead to more bias that you were trying to eliminate in the first place. So it's better if the only thing that knows it is a temporary table in the database server, and that it's only your best guess to begin with.

But that's just doing research into how you're serving people well, or not so well, and why, and what might make it better. From that research, you can work on broader initiatives such as changes to user experience to encourage or discourage certain behaviors, etc.

What's better is just listening to people that feel unwelcome due to things that people are saying, understanding what those things look like and deciding if you should try to make a change in the user experience (UX / Software), culture (Community Growth) or both.

Then, constantly ask these people if it's getting better, staying the same, or getting worse, and adapt.

code like:

if (gender.IsMale()) {
     // show something
} else if {
     // do something
} else {
     // this should never be reached 
}

... well you can see that doesn't scale based on engineering principles alone, along with it being a horrible idea. So it's better to look at all of the causes, even those you have zero direct control over, and see what you can do working backwards from there.

And, well, do your diligence by listening and running numbers and finding out what they mean to see if you have a problem. And if you do, or even think you do, work on it before it becomes much bigger than you'd like, which we unfortunately didn't do.

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    There's also the curb-cut effect: changes that make the system more accessible to one group can benefit everyone. NYC is kinda infamous for their inaccessible subway stations, going so far as to fund cab fare for disabled persons instead of fixing elevators or installing ramps... Of course, that does nothing for a weary shopper with a basket of groceries or an otherwise-fit person with an unexpected twisted ankle. By targeting specific groups they've given up a much larger potential benefit to everyone.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 14:57
10

There is no gender or race field in user profiles. There's no need to have your real name or picture attached to your profile either. After all, it's about the content, not the people posting it. (Also, it's not OK to hit on anyone here, no matter their gender. On other sites, I guess it's mostly a problem that women encounter, thus the wording.)

However, Stack Overflow has some idea of what the demographics are for one reason: the yearly Developer Survey. For example, the 2018 one found that 92.9% of survey respondent were male, 6.9% were female, and 0.9% were "non-binary, genderqueer, or gender non-conforming".

While the proportion of women to men varies from country to country, a quick search shows that the United States is generally considered lagging behind the rest of the world when it comes to women in tech. But even in the US women earn 18% of the Computer Science degrees, so I think I can see why the stats from the Developer Survey are a little low when it comes to women.

The blog post was pretty unclear why gender and race were brought into the discussion, but I think the reason is differences in statistics like the one I mentioned above.

0
2

Let's say, (fictiously) Stack Overflow allows tagging your religion, race, etc. along with the question... Then what?

Knowing or not knowing a person's actual "bio", does it affect in your helping or not helping the person? Say if a question asker belongs to my community/region, would I take extra pains in ensuring that "his" (sorry, used to male noun) difficulties get resolved?? NO...

Here, we belong to a community known as software developers (experience may lead to developer, lead, architect, etc). The sub-community can be .NET, Java, C++, etc. However, for the purpose of existence on Stack Overflow, this is the only part which is taken care of...

Here the question deserves merit and a question from a person from some community I would usually be against (if there's any even) which is genuine and shows self effort, will be worked on more than a crappy 'please give me code' question from my next door same religion neighbor.

That said, there will always be people who are more focussed on a community by birth (religion, race, etc.), and they would try to figure out this first before understanding the person's scenario and then decide whether to help or to downvote without reason :(

And Stack Overflow does a good work by NOT allowing people put community tags (#hindu, #christian, #muslim, etc.). That makes Stack Overflow a good place to learn and grow together... and thus ensuring fiction stays fiction.

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    Problem is, stats prove (or will prove soon) that you're wrong and many people do behave in different way according to the user's "bio". Maybe not you personally, but enough other people to cause a real problem, hence all the storm that started these days. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 5:58
  • well there's no smoke without fire.. In you profile, if you care to mention your religion on a platform which doesn't cares about it, people may chose to take that into consideration.. Answering a question does requires effort and going into a person's profile to check the bio, if someone has that level of energy, than that person needs to find better avenues to invest that..
    – NitinSingh
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 6:01
  • The problem is that the author of that article thinks that fictitious SO is actually real, this will cause them to try to "fix" SO and turn it into a bad place.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 7:58
  • Probably some people want to do analytics on which community raises most dumb and downvoted questions :(. For some, such discrimination is required as it boosts their own community and for others who are more human religion based, just want to help others and thus serve their commandments.. Hope and pray most of us be in the second category
    – NitinSingh
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 8:04
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    You could use "his/her" instead of "his". In particular in this context. Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 10:04
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    @ShadowWizard: today I saw a comment that I agreed with, but i couldn't upvote. At first I thought I be logged out, nope, then I I thought it might be a problem with page and reloaded, still no joy. Checked again, the commentor was me. I think I have my bias reasonably undercontrol.
    – jmoreno
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 18:03
0

Not so easy for gender, but I think I can infer that some posters are Southern Asian just from the style of their English and the kinds of English errors they make.

2
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    Or the kind of effort they are not willing to put in questions. It is...complicated. There are many cultural aspects at play, and I do have my Asian side of family, and am aware of their problems dealing with English and avoiding English in some settings because they do not feel at ease. Commented Jul 4, 2018 at 11:10
  • Not only Southern Asian, but almost anyone else, based on various errors (e.g. homonym errors for native US speakers, especially Southern US), word choice, typewriter-era influence (school system dependent), leaving out articles (e.g. Slavic), deliberate errors when they certainly know better (central European), etc. I am sure the three-letter agencies use this to their advantage. Commented Oct 30, 2019 at 13:58
-7

Depends on what you mean by "know." You can probably make a guess with high probability of success just by guessing the modal category especially if you add in a few other variables (you could probably look at the developer survey to help tune a model based on tags followed, activity level, etc). Of course some people come from relatively homogeneous countries in terms of race so you could use location and then for gender you might have name or other clues. The amazing thing is that as humans our brains are running these models all the time and making reasonably accurate guesses.

9
  • Tags followed on Stack Overflow wouldn't tell you anything about gender.
    – user692942
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 0:03
  • 1
    Sure thing. Just like what websites you visit are not associated with gender. Funny thing is that some how the ad servers can figure out who to advertise what to even for gender associated products.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 0:13
  • 2
    That's web cookies, you profile yourself on enough websites through various ad portals you'll be surprised what they can glean.
    – user692942
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 0:15
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    No they are really using Bayesian models not direct data. stackoverflow.blog/2017/01/19/… This sounds interesting dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2901777 as does ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7739708
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 0:23
  • Wasn't the SO Survey anonymous? They gleaned the gender data by asking you in the survey but it's all anonymised.
    – user692942
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 0:33
  • 1
    No the point is e.g. that if you are using F# you are more likely than the average SO user to be male.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 0:34
  • 3
    Are these the same "studies" that say eating sausages gives you cancer? In terms of what SO glean, they ask in the survey your gender.
    – user692942
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 0:37
  • 1
    Okay I get that you are not a person who works with this stuff, which is totally fine. But know that since SO says that Quantcast says that about 10% of users are female, you'll be correct just guessing male 90% of the time. Of course data science is one of the areas at SO that is closest to 50/50 insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/…
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 0:48
  • 1
    Anyway the point of my post was that "know" with 100% certainty is not really the issue and this whole question is really just an attempt to distract. Strangely, the blog post specifically says there is not an issue with simple,direct gender or race harassment so I'm not even sure what the point of this discussion is. Well, I mean any discussion of gender makes the tech world go so defensive that maybe they can't even read clearly.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 27, 2018 at 11:47

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