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I recently got access to Triage and wanted to try it out. Being new, I carefully read the instructions:

Triage instructions

Requires Editing for questions where edits by the author or others would result in a question that is clear and answerable

So based on these instructions, I happily clicked "Requires Editing" for questions that seem salvageable, if the author provided a bit more detail (such as an error message). This happened several times, and I thought I was following instructions well.

That is, I thought I was doing well until I read this answer, which states:

Do not choose "Requires Editing" if you know the question cannot be made answerable without clarification or additions from its author.

"This must be a bug," I thought to myself. And it turns out that this has been brought up 2 years ago, with a general consensus in the comments that this should have been fixed long ago:

I would have hoped that it would have been fixed like a year and a half ago, when I first pointed out the problem. I wouldn't have expected it to take that long, but here we are.

So how come it's taking more than a year to remove three words from a website page?

So why is this post not a duplicate of the linked post? The linked post is a question tagged as and [meta-discussion]. This post is not a question -- I completely understand what I'm supposed to do. Instead, this post is a clear-cut report and request: please fix this! It's still needlessly causing trouble for everyone, and everyone agrees that this should be fixed.

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  • 5
    You worded what I was planning to post for days but wasn't able!
    – Vega
    Apr 20, 2018 at 20:10
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    @Vega, you know that days and years have different meanings? :P Apr 21, 2018 at 2:08
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    It's taking that long, because, clearly, it takes a huge amount of effort to remove 3 words of text: "…questions where edits by the author or others would result in…" ➞ "…questions where edits by others would result in…". But, seriously, I don't know. I do know that it's the example that comes to mind which demonstrates what SE really doesn't care about their user's experience on SO. Sure, there's a lot that's broken, or could be better, but not fixing the trivial stuff…
    – Makyen Mod
    Apr 21, 2018 at 2:49
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    This related question actually is a bug report. But if posting a duplicate gets more attention... Apr 21, 2018 at 5:43
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    It will probably be changed in 6 to 8 weeks
    – Ferrybig
    Apr 21, 2018 at 10:30
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    and as a result, many bad questions reappear in the "Help and improvement" queue, where hardly anyone can really help accoriding to the stats
    – jps
    Apr 21, 2018 at 10:43
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    Funny you post this today. Just yesterday I found out I did it wrong all this time too and stumbled upon the same posts. I also wanted to write a post like this but wasn't sure how to approach it (as the post from 2 years ago literally contains the same content and isn't yet closed). Well done!
    – Neuron
    Apr 21, 2018 at 15:03
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    I wonder if the people in charge still think that these guidelines aren't worth changing because they're usually hidden (while there are larger changes they'd rather think about). It would be nice to get a metric of how many posts have been incorrectly sent to Help and Improvement due to reviewers naively doing what they're told to do. Apr 21, 2018 at 19:46
  • related: Request for additional confirmation if reviewer picks Requires Editing at question with many votes down and close (tl;dr - Stack Exchange team isn't willing to invest even a tiny bit of effort into helping Triage reviewers learn about this on questions where understanding it is most needed)
    – gnat
    Apr 23, 2018 at 10:04
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    I'm really glad you posted this, and I hope it gets more attention - it absolutely disproves what some of the responses have been, which was "it's not that big of a problem." Clearly, it is, as we've all been saying - and having somebody new stumble into it naturally, a new but careful reviewer (thank you for that!) doing exactly what they were told and then only later finding out that it's wrong may wake them up. Hopefully.
    – Ajean
    Apr 24, 2018 at 16:12
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    It's been fixed! Hooray! (see answer by Shog9)
    – k_ssb
    Apr 26, 2018 at 8:56
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    It's quite telling as to how the community collectively felt about this issue that nobody voted to close it until after it was fixed, despite the duplicate question being mentioned in the 4th comment and that there were 4 open questions effectively asking for this to be fixed (variously tagged as bugs and feature requests).
    – Makyen Mod
    Apr 26, 2018 at 21:12
  • I don't know if it was your question, or what actually pushed SE over the edge to actually do something about this issue. But, it was addressed only a few days after you posted this question. So, thank you for helping to push on SE to get this issue addressed. I know that "thank you" isn't something we normally put in comments or posts, but I'm really glad that something resulted in SE actually stepping up and doing something about this issue, which has been a glaring problem for a long time.
    – Makyen Mod
    Apr 26, 2018 at 21:16

4 Answers 4

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A couple of months back, K.Davis suggested the following guidance:

This question has minor issues that you can see yourself being able to correct by editing.

Now, that was suggested in the context of a pop-up nag, which sounds obnoxious and a lot of work. But I like the concept that underlies the wording: a focus on what the reviewer knows, rather than what they might assume about other people (whether the author or unidentified 3rd-party editors).

So, how about this:

Requires Editing for questions that you can make clear and answerable by editing

No change in functionality; the button would still send the question off to another queue, so if the reviewer actually wished to edit it themselves they'd have to drop out of review to do so. But... The guidance stops asking them to guess at what someone else might be willing or able to accomplish and asks only if they would be able to do it themselves.

Oh... And also we should add a second link to the guide, since the one at the top isn't quite as obvious as one might wish.


April 25, 2018: the changes described above are now live. Thanks to Adam Lear for the help with this!

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    updated guidance seems to make it possible for moderators to suspend Triage reviewers attempting to pass to H&I queue blatantly unsalvageable questions (at last!)
    – gnat
    Apr 26, 2018 at 7:28
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    Thank you for the fix!
    – k_ssb
    Apr 26, 2018 at 8:57
  • gasp! I quite literally just did a happy dance at my desk. HOORAY! This should be broadcast, it'd get about a million upvotes.
    – Ajean
    May 3, 2018 at 17:19
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Yeah, the Triage/H&I system is hopelessly broken; the guidance in the review queue explicitly tells Triage reviewers to do completely the wrong thing and consequently H&I gets fed with unsalvageable garbage. I'm sorry you wasted your time doing something that you now realise was pointless or even harmful. It wasn't your fault; it's absolutely insane that in two years the time since this issue was raised in 2014 the SO staff haven't tweaked that one tiny bit of copy that currently invalidates the entire system. It's upsetting to try to estimate how many tens of thousands of man-hours have been wasted by members of the community participating in or commentating upon a fundamentally useless system that could potentially be made viable by literally deleting three words from some static copy.

The best advice I can give you is to stay away from the Triage and H&I queues. There's no real point participating in them at the moment and I don't want you to burn time doing something pointless. If it makes you feel better, there are genuinely worthwhile review queues that will become available to you at higher rep levels - the Suggested Edit, Close Vote, Reopen Vote and Low Quality Post review queues - that would benefit from more thoughtful and conscientious eyes on them. If this experience hasn't killed your motivation to participate in the review system entirely, then I hope you'll give it another look once you unlock those queues.

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  • Not completely agreeing here. Just don't ever use "Requires editing". It's either okay, or should be gone, then the queue works fine. Although this is a work-around that shouldn't be necessary!
    – Luuklag
    Apr 23, 2018 at 10:11
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    @Luuklag abstaining of reviews as a means to encourage SE team do something to address the problem is an interesting idea anyway. Something like that worked in the past for another queue, see Close Votes review: I'm going on a strike!
    – gnat
    Apr 23, 2018 at 10:27
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    @gnat deffinetly interesting, but did it work? I'm not around long enough to know.
    – Luuklag
    Apr 23, 2018 at 10:36
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    @Luuklag well per my reading of feature changes log at MSE in next few months after the strike they made several changes that greatly improved things: 1, 2, 3, 4. They will likely tell that it's a mere coincidence...
    – gnat
    Apr 23, 2018 at 10:43
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    "it's absolutely insane that in two years the SO staff haven't [...]" Two years ago the issue had still been going on for a year and a half. And two years ago wasn't the first time this was brought up. In fact, as I said in that previous question, this issue was brought up before the feature was even released. And there have been quite a lot of people asking for it to be fixed over the years.
    – Servy
    Apr 23, 2018 at 18:36
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    @Servy oh yikes. I didn't remember clearly when Triage and H&I were first introduced and just faithfully copied the "2 years" from the question, but you're right - this issue had already been raised in 2014!
    – Mark Amery
    Apr 23, 2018 at 21:53
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You and other Triage reviewers are right to feel confused by this part of guidance because it is simply absurd.

This review action is intended to send question to H&I queue, for others to review it. In this context it is totally irrelevant whether a question can or can not be (also) edited by author.

Triage workflow chart is pretty clear on that. Requires Editing sends the question to others for review, this action is not about author at all.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/3GmS3.png

Words "by the author" should be removed from Requires Editing guidance.

Not because these are wrong or correct mind you, but because these are just useless fluff that has nothing to do with the referred review action.

(Strongly related: Should I remove 'fluff' when editing questions?)

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  • Can we get a direct link from the review guidance to this flowchart?
    – BJ Myers
    Apr 25, 2018 at 4:48
  • that would be slippery @BJMyers I'm afraid. Experienced users would most likely benefit from that but for a casual 500-rep reviewer (who are probably vast majority) it seems too heavyweight. As a matter of better educating reviewers I like proposal in another answer to add a second, more prominent link to Triage guide near the bottom of review dialog
    – gnat
    Apr 25, 2018 at 6:53
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A slightly different proposal:

Instead of focusing on who needs to make the edits, focus on what edits need to be made and why. The time when "Requires Editing" should really be applied is when the question contains all the information required to answer it, but is worded in such a way that makes it more difficult to understand and answer.

I would propose a change in wording to something more like this:

Requires Editing for questions that contain sufficient information to be answerable but require edits by the author or others to be clear and understandable.

This provides a clearer middle ground between "Looks OK" and "Unsalvageable." It emphasizes that the author has provided the right information but that somebody needs to improve the presentation - and therefore either the author or others would be able to do that.

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