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This is about this question of mine: How to implement common bash idioms in Python?. It is probably a bit of a rant but I wanted to post it anyway in the hope that it might cause discussion. My main point is, there should be a clearer way of asking "can someone please give me some brief feedback on what I've done", when questions are (or are threatened with) closure or deletion.

I liked this question, and it was over 10 years old. One morning, suddenly, I found that it had been closed for being opinion-based.

I found this annoying -- I didn't think it was opinion based, and I was never given the option to comment or edit it before it was closed. Also, at the same time, it also said "deleted (4)", which I guess means it's on its way to deletion, but there is no way of finding out (that I could find) why, or how close, it is to deletion.

Based on the advice in the yellow box, I've edited the question to now (hopefully) be less opinion based. Except, there seems to be silence -- there doesn't seem to be any way of asking "So, is this OK now? Is this fixable at all? Will it now get deleted?" I tried pressing 'reopen', which I guessed would open some kind of reopening vote, but as far as I can tell nothing happened.

In general, I found all this very much like interacting with a big faceless company. You just shout into a hole accomplishing nothing, and unhelpful automated messages appear now and again.

To be clear, I'm not demanding my question be reopened, but it would be nice to get some feedback on if I have fixed it, or if it is simply unfixable.

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    That was initially both opinion based and a request for off-site resources. After the edit, it's just too broad. But the answers seem useful, so I don't think it should be deleted.
    – jonrsharpe
    Apr 18, 2018 at 10:41
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    Just to be transparent: It was cv-pls-ed in SOCVR here. I pinged the involved users to make them aware of this question. If they have anything to add I expect they will.
    – rene
    Apr 18, 2018 at 10:53
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    "in the hope it might cause discussion" - that might be a key problem. Stack Overflow is a Q&A platform, and is not geared up for discursive questions. FWIW, perhaps a historical lock would be good here, since it is/was popular? It will remain on-hold, but will not be deletable.
    – halfer
    Apr 18, 2018 at 10:59
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    @halfer I think you read it wrong (or I did). This question is on meta where discussion is one of the options for the mandetory tag on each question. Apr 18, 2018 at 11:19
  • Ah right, thanks @André! Yes, I thought the discussion element was pertaining to the Q on the main site.
    – halfer
    Apr 18, 2018 at 11:20
  • Ok, and was locked because? Are we going to lock every question that hits meta?
    – Braiam
    Apr 18, 2018 at 11:23
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    @Braiam Nope..
    – rene
    Apr 18, 2018 at 11:25
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    At the time of my close vote, your question contained a request for a book or a guide. Nowadays this is considered a valid close vote reason and I have voted as such. Now you have edited it, but in my opinion this is still a too broad question without a specific example on what you need to do and what have you tried to solve the problem. These motives are not good enough to guarantee a delete vote and I disagree with the people that asked the deletion. These "questions" are valuable for the SO community but they should be really transformed in a wiki question and/or give them a canonical form
    – Steve
    Apr 18, 2018 at 12:08
  • @rene thanks for the ping. I even took the time to answer. Apr 18, 2018 at 12:14
  • @rene still I don't get why would it be locked...
    – Braiam
    Apr 18, 2018 at 12:31
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    To be clear, I'm happy for the question to remain closed, if it's not a good question. I was more commenting on the way that it can be a bit unclear, even to someone (like myself) who has been around for 10 years, how and why questions get closed, and how and if they are re-opened. Apr 18, 2018 at 12:46
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    @Braiam me neither but I take it as a precaution and leave it at that.
    – rene
    Apr 18, 2018 at 13:43
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    It is never very hard to find Q+A from the first year that doesn't meet current standards. There were none back then, retroactively applying them is pretty troublesome. Looks like this started with two rejected flags, didn't slow down the user much. The chatroom voting ring is an atomic weapon, it has little regard to what degree it breaks the Internet. Not easy to tell how often the answers have been linked to in the past decade. Ping us when the question gets deleted, you'll surely get some undelete votes. Apr 18, 2018 at 14:02
  • It probably qualifies for a historical lock (not sure if anybody suggested, but you can flag it and request a mod to apply one). It'd be fine to leave questions considered on topic 9 years ago alone if they weren't constantly brought up as proof that questions like it are still on topic today. Especially when they've got 100k views and 240+ votes. It's purely a reaction to the "whatabouters" that these get closed so long after they were created :/
    – user1228
    Apr 18, 2018 at 15:36
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    @Will: yep, I suggested that earlier, in comment #3. I've now requested that via a mod flag on the question.
    – halfer
    Apr 18, 2018 at 23:59

3 Answers 3

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Feedback tends to be slow and impersonal. Our main feedback mechanism is anonymous voting, after all. The more personal and direct the feedback, the more noisy and distracting it tends to become.

You are interacting with a community, not with a company, so it's not easy to ask for a more direct, speedy, clear (or even consistent) response.

By editing your question and clicking the "reopen" link, you've sent the question to the reopen queue. AFAIK, the only feedback you'll get from review is either your question is reopened or left closed, after some other users with more than 3k reputation reviewed it.

Asking a question here on meta using the tag is also a good way to get more direct feedback about your question.

Doing this, you need to be wary of the meta-effect. Users who frequent meta are usually very "quality-oriented", and by attracting additional attention and exposure, you risk your post faring badly. (Of course, the opposite is also entirely possible, and often a post will get additional upvotes and/or be reopened after being mentioned on meta).

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    My main problem is the text I saw was "If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit your question.". However, it's then not clear to the user if editing the question accomplishes anything. Stackoverflow could generally suggest users come ask on meta for more information but that could lead to a rush of low-value questions here. Telling people to try reopening, and letting them know when/if that reopened failed, would be (I think) nice. Apr 18, 2018 at 12:44
  • Yes, a more obvious workflow would be nice to have I think that the first edit on a closed question will push a question to the re-open queue. But I'm not sure if that's the case, or if only works with "on hold" questions. The problem is that rules, mechanics, policies and consensus change over time and there are a multiple exceptions for each use case; and I guess that maintaining a clear documentation over time it's a lot of work.
    – yivi
    Apr 18, 2018 at 12:54
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    Would help with transparency, and with educating the users who do read that kind of documentation (a very tiny minority). But I think that the general idea is that the onus is on the poster to do their research before posting/editing; and then let the community do their work (via voting/reviewing/etc). Which kinda works, most of the time. For a certain definition of works. :)
    – yivi
    Apr 18, 2018 at 12:55
  • @ChrisJefferson All of the information you say you wish you were told is either in the close reason itself, or is in the link to the help center that is in the close reason. So you were given all of the information you claim you wanted to see, you just choose not to read it.
    – Servy
    Apr 18, 2018 at 13:13
  • @Servy You are right, but I feel the current message is unhelpul. It says "If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit your question.". I assumed the 'help center' link would only tell me about how to 'reword to fit the rules'. If I carry on reading through the help center I do indeed also find information on how to request a reopening. Perhaps an extra link should be added that says something like "and request your question be reopened" (which links to the information about reopening question). I also struggled to find out what the 'delete (4)' meant. Apr 18, 2018 at 13:34
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    @ChrisJefferson Rather than assuming the help center doesn't actually contain helpful information, choosing to not read it, and then complaining that you weren't given the information you wanted, you could have instead chosen to assume that the help center contained helpful information, read it, found that it contained exactly the information you wanted to hear, and then not needed to complain about not having access to the information you wanted to know. The latter option would be an even better choice after being expressly told that it has the information you wanted to see.
    – Servy
    Apr 18, 2018 at 13:38
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    @halfer actually, for such score on answers+question, it would be 6 votes short of deletion.
    – Braiam
    Apr 18, 2018 at 19:52
  • @halfer actually, normally the votes to delete are 3. :P
    – Braiam
    Apr 19, 2018 at 2:27
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Good questions indicate research. Your question includes the statement:

I've seen mentioned a few places that python is good for this kind of thing.

Provide detail

  • What are these places and what do they say?
  • What happened when you tried some of their suggestions?
  • Which specific issues did you face as a result of your research?

This helps answerers provide a specific response and helps visitors assess whether the question is appropriate for their use case.

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I was the one who initiated the CV-please request on SOCVR.

I totally agree that we should have left a comment when closing, as I usually do when closing as duplicate (unless it's too obvious). I've asked several related questions (about duplicates) in that spirit:

In your case:

How can I use Python to replace shell scripting, AWK, sed and friends?

Try to post such a question nowadays you'll get several downvotes & closure as "primarily opinion based" or "too broad" in a few minutes.

I realize this wasn't the case in 2008. So after a bit of thought and discussion with other SOCVR members, the consensus seems to be:

  • such old questions should be closed (or even locked)
  • such old questions should not be deleted because they have a lot of views (100000+ in that case) and some answers are interesting. They are part of the site "history" even if the nowadays standards don't allow it.

Note that:

  • The question has 244 votes, 4 delete votes (thanks to the question high score, 6 more are required to delete the question, so there's still some margin)
  • Even if the question was deleted, the rep gain on question & answers wouldn't be lost.
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    Thanks. I'm not opposed to the question being closed. My main irritation (in retrospect) is that the process for fixing the closing is so unclear -- I'm asked to edit my question, but then I never seem to get any feedback, there is just forever a box saying "edit your question" staring at me for all time, never letting me know if my edits are fixing anything, or if they ever could. In this case I don't think there is an edit I could make that wouldn't make the current answers "wrong", I'd be better off with a fresh more specific question. Apr 18, 2018 at 12:53
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    I think you just cannot fix this particular question. It's too broad beyond fixing. Live with it Apr 18, 2018 at 13:22

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