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Lately it feels like there's a growing perception that Stack Overflow is not a nice place. I still feel like it's the best place to ask programming questions on the Web, but apparently not everyone agrees.

Suggestion: Can users be sent an automatic warning with a reminder to Be Nice if a number of their comments are flagged as rude? (3 in a week? 5 in a month? Recommendations welcome.)

I know that a lot of these comments are deleted already (both automatically and by moderators), but lately that feels like just sweeping the problem under the rug. The comments continue to be made, so maybe we can do more to prevent them?

Some questions:

  • Is anything like this already in place?
  • Is there (anonymized) data regular users can access to see how big a problem this is?
  • Should this be escalated to a moderator flag after a number of warnings to the same user?

Update from the comments: A couple of people have suggested that letting people know when their comments are deleted would be a good intermediate step. It would probably be too noisy for every(?) comment, but could probably work if a certain threshold of comments were deleted for being rude in a short period. Just letting people know that rude comments will be deleted might be enough to decrease the number that are posted to begin with.

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    While I agree with the spirit of the post, I have the feeling that the majority of the complaints about the nature of SO fall around comments and interactions that we usually do not consider flaggable as rude.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 13:18
  • 15
    There is an auto-flag that is generated for the mods when a user has comments that are repeatedly being flagged as rude/abusive. It's then up to the mods to determine what next steps should be taken.
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 13:18
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    @yivi It was a probably-borderline comment ("don't they have google where you live?") that prompted this post. I feel like deleting those comments just hides the problem without really addressing it. Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 13:27
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    @user202729 Good points. Just letting users know that their comments are being deleted (and why) would be a step in the right direction. Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 13:30
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    @yivi and Bill: Looking at the critical tweets that were being discussed yesterday, one of the more substantial threads I found was about condescending comments (phrased as "It is obvious that [...]", "You really should have realised that [...]", etc.). They are the sort of thing I avoid writing, but would generally not flag as rude.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 13:37
  • 42
    What kind of sanction do you suggest might be applied to rude and abusive questions? Homework dumps, gimme-teh-codez, works requests, do-myGoogling etc? Sending emails and/or closing accounts is pretty useless to uncaring deadbeats who raise a new account for every useless question dumped. Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 13:43
  • 39
    'fighting against plain rudeness is always good' yes, but it seems that only applies to commenters and/or user-moderators. Abusive questions are immune from control - all that happens to those posters is down and close votes that they don't care about, and question/answer bans that just provoke new accounts. I've just about had enough of being described as 'toxic', 'hostile' etc for down/close voting bad questions:( Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 13:55
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    The only set of users who have anythng to worry about are diligent SO user-moderators. They often have accounts with considerable rep that they don't want to have suspended. No other set of users has much to worry about - they can essentially post whatever they wish, and flag anything they wish as 'rude\abusive' in order to generate mod flags and, eventually suspensions of user-mods who have the temerity to describe 'i++ + ++i' as trash code.:( Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 14:00
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    @Martin, questions are not immune to moderation. We do moderate them. It's true that some people describing the community as "toxic" for its moderation efforts is not particularly fair. But nobody is forcing us to do this. If you "had enough", maybe it's time to take a short break from SO. Because no matter what we do, as long as the focus is quality and curation I do not see the pushback getting weaker.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 14:04
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    @yivi the pushback against abusive questions could not be much weaker anyway. 'nobody is forcing us to do this' true. I accept it's a difficult balance between appeasing generation snowflake and losing skilled and experienced developers/contributors, (especially in tags like C++, where many awesomely-knowledgeable users just don't bother any more). Since the developers are hugely outnumbered, and hardly ever read the adverts anyway, they are clearly of low priority ATM:( Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 15:04
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    @pnuts Let's not pretend that "don't they have google where you live?" is a sincere question. Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 16:13
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    @BilltheLizard I doubt that anyone would think that sincere but, when copy/paste of a question title into Google results in: 'About 48,600,000 results', with the top entries explaining clearly the OP's problem, it's also difficult to pretend that some questions are sincere. Yes, such responses are rude, and get dealt with, maybe resulting in a suspension or whatever. Meanwhile, the posters of the trivially-Googleable run their 'Create new account' scripts to insulate themselves from the Q ban they know is coming:( Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 16:35
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    A rude comment is a deliberate choice to use impolite or abrasive wording in direct response to a statement by another person. There's no generic comment. A comment is always pointed either at a question, an answer, or another comment. A bad question is not directed at an individual, and is generally the result of ignorance, not malice. Some people are genuinely incapable of understanding why some phrasing is rude, but that doesn't mean you get a pass. It's still rude, and you should learn to avoid such constructs. Wording that presumes a random stranger is stupid or lazy is always rude.
    – barbecue
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 18:17
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    @barbecue: Sometimes, especially if English is not your native language, you might write something rude without even knowing. It happened to me not so long ago, where as a part of an answer I wrote "You can't be bothered to...". What I should have write (and what I've edited to later, when the OP asked why am I offensive), was "You shouldn't care about..." (later rephrased further). My point is that you can be rude unintentionally. Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 20:36
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    @green_knight is that the best you can do re. cherry-picking words/phrases? I welcome new users if they read the rules/policy/tour and treat SO as they would the professional doctors, lawyers and garage techs that they interact with outside SO - eg. give us as much info as you reasonably can about their specific problem and not just dump homework or requirements as if SO is a pool of slaves. It's exactly that kind of 'question' that frustrates and insults users to the point that they tend to snap and post snarky comments. Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 9:17

12 Answers 12

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The direct answer to your question is ...

Probably. And we should.

I'm going to meander a little bit here and throw out some observations, in no specific order, but hopefully they come together as something coherent.

  1. We might not be as nice as we think we are, and that could be because we're in the middle of a generation gap. I noticed this when I expatriated from the US and came back almost 15 years later, the bar for "nice" in ordinary discourse had raised considerably. It moved from simply not saying mean things to more proactively considering the other person's feelings, or in other words, being more empathetic.

  2. It's genuinely difficult to track 'rudeness' in the absence of deliberate insults. These tiny (aka 'micro') aggressions can appear in the form of someone simply assuming your gender, race or other parts of your identity, that you require oversimplification of your problem, or someone just pointing out everything negative about something you contributed without any mention of the positive. Alone, isolated, these things can be cast off as noise, but the sum of them over time can be pretty crushing.

  3. And I think this is a pretty big one, it's hard to imply that you know more than someone else does without coming off as condescending; this is exacerbated by communicating without facial expressions, diction, inflection, etc.

  4. Yeah, you still have some pretty blatantly rude and condescending stuff.

So there's two things that we need to do in order to get out ahead of this a bit more.

#1 - We have to do more about quality.

I can't go chiding people for losing their cool occasionally when they spend so much time in the salt mines we call review until I can say that we've made every reasonable stab that we can at helping people ask better questions through the means that we have that can influence every single programmer with a problem to solve - our software.

We're working on this now through a bunch of tests and UX research, a big part of it is doing a better job of setting people's expectations based on what they're about to submit, while doing a better job of getting likely duplicates in front of them.

There's also a big part of the new culture that says hey, just ask and save some time which we need to find a way to address. We're increasingly unique by insisting that people do their homework first as far as expectations that being 'on the webz' might set. More hurdles mean increasingly worse solutions here, it's an interesting problem.

#2 - We have to be more cognizant that people make everything work

We've done extremely well by establishing a very high bar for entry and refusing to lower our standards of quality. We absolutely, positively, without fail must keep those things.

At the same time, we need to look at how our software isn't doing a very good job of reminding people to value contributors as much as we do contributions, while also maintaining that it's all about the posts, not so much the people that write them. That doesn't have to be a contradiction, but it is a very deliberate and difficult balance to strike. We're doing a lot of research (which is soon to turn into sentiment analysis) right now of feedback that we're hearing in a variety of places. Probably the most important part right now is just listening and trying our best to not be obtuse.

So, what are we doing?

Pretty much what you're doing which is admitting that we have a problem and that it's scary, and that we need to do something smart about it. Sure, yes, there's going to be some short-term low hanging fruit where the most obvious incidents get handled more efficiently as we work to better understand the majority of it, which tends to be a lot more subtle.

At the end of the day I have to remember that we're a mirror, we're essentially a living example of how developers relate to one another with the added bonus of removing many social contracts that face-to-face communication imply. But, we're a mirror with a voice, and we need to use it more effectively to ensure the greatest possible majority of people feel reasonably safe and confident using our software.

There will be more about this from us as we dig further into it, but I really meant what I said - as long as we continue to owe our reviewers and most engaged users much needed bug fixes and tweaks, well, the blame is mostly on us when they start to sound kinda sick of it.

Fortunately, we can do a lot of this asynchronously, and research being done by a small working group is underway. We'll post back with more, and, well, sorry for the brain dump, I hope folks find something of interest and value in it.

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    I would have loved that this post went accompanied with some hard numbers, one thing is what people perceive as rude (btw, I consider your coffee mug rude... how can you use a mug for coffee that isn't red and/or white, you monster in yellow!) and rudeness that people acts upon. The point of interest is in the latter.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 15:00
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    @Braiam There will be a blog post in the relatively near future with some numbers, our data team is working on some insights now. The latter is very interesting when 'acting upon' it means we never see them again, and the 'rudeness' was something that many people might not think was worthy of flagging. It's extremely hard to not get distracted when looking at it, but we'll have something out soon that we think makes enough sense for others to start looking into.
    – user50049
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 16:37
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    IMO while there are other issues, I'd say there's a simpler primary driver: SO can't have it both ways. Either SO remains "elitist" and keeps doing the O&M work needed, or standards are loosened to allow greater participation for the masses. The vast majority of people simply don't care or don't have the time to treat SO with the care they treat their homes. That's not going to change. There are fundamentally different motivations at work. You can either satisfy the high-end minority, satisfy the mass market, or maybe try to balance the two, but you'll never fully satisfy both.
    – Manius
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 17:25
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    @Manius: Took the words right out of my mouth. We can't be everything to everyone, and trying to is only going to create headaches for everyone. The sort of people who cite our quality standards as "elitist" (as opposed to the toxicity that some people exude, which is a valid argument) are the sort of people who don't care, and frankly, I don't understand why taking pride in our work is such a terrible trait to have. God forbid we want people to write in coherent sentences.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 17:57
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    @Manius I'm not certain that the two are completely mutually-exclusive. That is to say, I think there might exist a degree of 'elitist' that's also compatible with a very wide definition of friendly and nice. But, I also believe we'll be lucky (in addition to determined) to find it.
    – user50049
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 18:01
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    " while also maintaining that it's all about the posts, not so much the people that write them" I think this is the most difficult thing to handle moving forward; striking a balance between "focus on the content, not the people" and "think about the people when you post content".
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 18:10
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    @Tim Post: It will take quite a paradi— mindset shift, I think, even from folks like myself (since I've become increasingly aware that I use the same language as many do that could totally rub people the wrong way). We are all human, we have our limits, and the "elitist" part seems to be that we expect a minimal level of understanding (sound familiar?) of very fundamental concepts that are relevant to each question, such as how to start a particular IDE if a question is about that IDE, or how to open a browser's menu if you're a web developer.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 18:13
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    " US and came back almost 15 years later, the bar for "nice" in ordinary discourse had raised considerably." SO has many users outside US, perhaps the nice bar is not so high in those other countries, and thus there is this clash of cultures?
    – llrs
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 7:40
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    I've been talking about improving the /ask page since 2012. Stack would be in a better place if people had actually acted on that suggestion. Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 9:15
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    @JeffAtwood: Recently we tested a template. It has a lot of promise to make this a better place, so we're going to work on it more this summer. That said, the cultural problem we face goes back before 2012. The software enables it in many ways. For instance, people who refuse to answer a question but leave a comment instead can lay claim to the space immediately below the question with no risk of downvotes and little risk of deletion. To quote Shirky, "you cannot completely program social issues".
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 17:27
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    @Marius (BoltClock, Tim Post) - It's definitely possible to be "elite" without being "elitist". People who perceive the former (having superior standards of excellence) as the latter (high and mighty snobbery with no patience for anyone below their station) are either right — there certainly are such folks around, unfortunately — or are just trying to cast blame for their failure to fit on anything and anyone convenient. Addressing the former would be great. Helping the latter by guiding them past the most common blunders, though, would be of tremendous help to the network.
    – Rubio
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 21:30
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    What you aren't mentioning here is that when the "Jeff Atwood era" ended, SO decided to lower the bar for what's ok to ask significantly. The site went from Q&A for professional and enthusiast programmers (a programmer being a person who knows how to program at least somewhat ok in at least 1 language) to being Q&A about programming. The requirement that the OP must actually know an utter minimum of the topic they ask about was removed. ->
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 14:10
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    A lot of the frustration from the veteran users originate in this. They signed up to help colleagues with technical problems. They did not sign up to be elementary school teachers with no pay. And a significant amount of moderator effort on the site right now is all about teaching kids (in kid or adult bodies) how to properly communicate with other humans in written text. Something you could previously assume that a programmer knows, since it is a prerequisite for working as a programmer.
    – Lundin
    Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 14:11
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    @JonEricson commitment to improve the ask page sometime in the last 4 years would have demonstrated a lot more. If your argument is that downvoting should be allowed for comments, that seems like an OK plan to me. But you should refer to the previous two or three comments I left on meta.so (not including this one) first. Commented Apr 13, 2018 at 2:28
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    @BoltClock "We can't be everything to everyone"... and yet the cancerous, quality-destroying "Be Nice" policy forces exactly that. How about instead, we all act like adults - who are generally able to tolerate a little sass and not curl up in a corner and die as a result.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Apr 17, 2018 at 6:57
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As meagar and others have mentioned, an automatic flag was added a couple of years ago for people who repeatedly have their comments deleted when flagged as "rude" or "not constructive". This has allowed us to identify patterns of rudeness that might have been missed, and to act on that.

However, in the time that this has been active I've observed that it doesn't quite cover the cases mentioned in my original feature request: extremely insulting comments deleted automatically by community flags and then hidden from moderators. To deal with extreme abusive users, we need to be able to take action immediately and prevent them from negatively impacting others.

The system is currently configured to automatically delete comments containing certain highly offensive words immediately when flagged by anyone in the community. I still think that moderators should receive a special flag on every instance of this, so that we don't have to wait for people to use custom flags to point out slurs or obscene insults or for enough of them to pile up to trigger an automatic flag.

Shog9 worries about the noise this would cause in his response to my original feature request, but that's because the one-flag deletion currently has a lot of other triggers ("what have you tried"-style comments, etc.). I propose setting up a subgroup of the automatic deletion trigger phrases for obscenities, slurs, and similarly abusive words and having this automatic flag trigger on only those. I think this would allow moderators to act on directly insulting behavior far earlier, causing it to impact fewer people.

Will that have a huge impact? Maybe not, but it will help out in a few areas. I believe that a much larger improvement in tone and signal to noise ratio in comments could be made with a better comment moderation system.

Questions and answers are currently subject to a lot of review when they come into the site, and a robust moderation system has built up around them. Comments, where you see most instances of rudeness and unconstructive behavior (as well as annoyances to higher-rep users and the occasional spam), have nowhere near as much review. They currently rely on people happening to come across bad comments, flagging them, and then having our small group of moderators review each one of them.

We need a better way of making incoming comments visible to the community so that problems are caught and acted on sooner, and in such a way that scales with what elected moderators can handle. Is that a community review queue for new comments on old posts, comments by new users, or all comments? I don't know, but I really think something is missing here.

Better comment review might also allow us to ease restrictions on posting comments in certain places, cutting back on a source of frustration for new users and reducing the number of non-answers posted to the site. That may indirectly help improve the perception of the site as hostile to new users, as well as the more significant benefits that will come with better comment moderation.

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  • There's no such thing as a "not constructive" comment flags anymore.
    – user4639281
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 17:15
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    @Tiny Giant: There was at the time the auto flag was first introduced, which is the point. Maybe a "(the latter of which no longer exists today)" remark could be added, but I'm not sure how many people actually care.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 17:42
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    missing here is what the stack overflow blog research found in 2012: the first comments and first answers to a new user's question are particularly critical, and thus the system should provide extra cues in these specific cases. Both to the commenter/answerer, and to the new user. Just in time reminders work. Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 9:30
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but lately that feels like just sweeping the problem under the rug

Actually, this was an issue in the past. A few years back, we (the SOBotics team) requested a dump of rude comments from Stack Exchange, and Stack Exchange provided us with some. Using this data, we then built HeatDetector, a bot to detect rude comments on Stack Overflow (using Natural Language Processing). Thanks to the bot reporting stuff, most of the rude and snarky comments posted on Stack Overflow used to be detected by HeatDetector and then manually flagged by users in chat, causing the rude comment to be subsequently deleted. We used to raise a custom moderator flag to inform the moderators about users who left a substantial amount of rude comments in a very short period of time. Now, thanks to Brad's feature request to have the Stack Exchange system raise an automatic flag when a user leaves a lot of rude comments, there is an automatic flag raised by the Stack Exchange system in these cases, and the SOBotics team no longer has to raise those custom flags.

Now speaking from the mod perspective, the auto flag became very noisy and went to the levels of 300. Most of them were filled with too chatty comments, which were flagged as non-constructive. This caused the CMs to look into the auto flag and make the comment flags less stupid. After the merger of the 3 comment flag types, the auto flag is now raised whenever there are 3 or more rude comments in the recent past. With this change the signal/noise ratio in that auto flag is high but on the downside, the number of false negatives are also high.

Can users be sent an automatic warning with a reminder to Be Nice if a number of their comments are flagged as rude?

This isn't a bad idea, but there's one downside; Stack Exchange automatically deletes some comments, and does face the Scunthorpe problem. There might be edge cases where a user actually added some profanity which made sense in the context of the post.

Another potential problem which I see is that, it doesn't really help cater the main issue which you're focusing upon, which is:

Lately it feels like there's a growing perception that Stack Overflow is not a nice place.

This growing perception is mostly because the users receive negative comments. Most of these snarky comments are flagged as no longer needed. This is because the users to which they are targeted are usually new and do not know how to flag. The other users, who check these out do not consider it rude, and flag it as no longer needed, instead. (I don't know why they do this, but I can clearly say that I see many snarky comments flagged as NLN and not R/A). This doesn't raise an auto flag, and wouldn't send the automated message.

Now, we can't just include NLN into the rude comments bracket, as it would cause the problem discussed earlier. So, to conclude, the new system won't be very effective. If we decide to go with this new system, it would need a lot of development effort. Instead of that, we can just spend some more of the moderator time and make them handle it. And as always, a pair of human eyes is better than an automated system.

And for your questions:

Is anything like this already in place?

As meagar mentioned, there isn't an automated system per se, but mods are trained similar to an automated system to contact the user on seeing these flags.

Is there (anonymized) data regular users can access to see how big a problem this is?

There is some limited data set provided by Stack Exchange, which would not help to see how big this problem is. As far as I know, this is not made public, to protect the guilty (even if anonymized, users can find out from the comment text).

From a community user perspective, you are more than welcome to join us in Sobotics and get a live feed of the snarky comments. Rob is building a nice web-based GUI frontend, to create a new dashboard, where you can see the (possibly anonymized) data. This would be more useful to you.

Should this be escalated to a moderator flag after a number of warnings to the same user?

I'd say, this should be escalated on the very first warning (in the new system which you propose). Moderators must have knowledge of rude and abusive users so that they can keep an eye on them and take care.

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    "signal/noise ratio is high, but ... the number of false negatives are also high." This kind of logic worries me a great deal. It does explain why we lost the ability to make our flags more fine-grained. Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 23:42
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    Yeah, true. The issue is many users don't flag borderline snarky comments as RA, but they flag it as NLN (which I mention a few paras below that statement). If they are somehow educated to flag as RA instead, there might be a decrease in the false negative rate.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 23:53
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    You were talking about a bot, not people. Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 23:56
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    So you didn't read the answer completely, @Hans? I was speaking about the automatically raised flag by Stack Exchange.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 23:57
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    I'm trying to make sense of it. So are you complaining about the bot, people or SE? How people flag is not terribly surprising, they are trying to be nice. Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 23:59
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    I'm not complaining about anyone. The number of false negatives of the automatically raised flags are high. The bot part is completely unrelated to the flag part. I'm not sure why you're not able to understand. Do let me know if I can make it anymore clearer to you.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 0:01
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    Fwiw, the level of false negatives is high for all comment flag types; relatively few comments get flagged period, even when they unarguably should be. There are too many comments.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 0:11
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    @HansPassant Okay, I'll reiterate myself. It is neither the people nor the bot. There is an automatic flag raised by the system to the moderators whenever 3 or more comments of a user get flagged as rude or abusive. Earlier, it used to be raised whenever 3 or more comments of a user get flagged as either R/A or Not constructive. At that time, the automatic flag raised by the system to the moderators used to have more false positives and low signal to noise ratio. (1/2)
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 0:12
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    Now the automatic flag raised by the system to the moderators is raised only when 3 or more comments of a user get flagged as rude or abusive. At the moment, that automatic flag raised by the system to the moderators has a lot of false negatives. (2/2)
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 0:12
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    That is the logic that does not make any sense. You already moved the bot's trigger, but it is still raising a lot of false flags. If you can't fix it then you need to turn it off. It is important that you do. Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 0:22
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    Okay, @HansPassant, you're again missing the point. The automatic flag is raised by Stack Exchange and not by a bot. Please read this meta post again meta.stackexchange.com/questions/284053/… and then re read my earlier two comments. The bot is different, the automatic flag is different, the bot doesn't raise a flag, Stack Exchange raises a flag. I don't work at Stack Exchange to either turn on the flag or turn it off. I'm just a volunteer moderator.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 0:25
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    I'm talking about HeatDetector of course. Not getting anywhere with you, who else works on that bot? Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 0:34
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    @Hans Few others, I'll ask them to speak to you. But again, none of them are Stack Overflow moderators, so they won't be able to tell you anything about the automatic flag raised by Stack Exchange to the Stack Overflow moderators. Again, let me finally state this: The bot HeatDetector built by Sobotics isn't raising any flags and has a good detection ratio. The Automatic flag raised by Stack Exchange which is only visible to the elected diamond moderators of Stack Overflow has a high false negative rate. I don't think I can get any clearer than this.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 0:37
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    @Shog9 per my reading of discussion here you better increase trigger for system flag, from 3 to something like 5-7 (you probably can check stats of mod actions for better number). Hign number of false positives increases risk of ignoring valid cases that require action. Also, if I understand correctly these are particularly harmful because handling this flag implies high load on mods (they have to manually review multiple comments before deciding on mod message / suspension)
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 8:04
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    @gnat as far as I can tell, the discussion has been about false negatives, not false positives. This means that things aren't being reported that should, and things are being reported using milder flags than appropriate, which in turn prevents the system from raising the automatic flag. None of this points to the need to increase the threshold for the existing automatic flag, but may point to the need for a second automatic flag for NLN flagged comments with a separate threshold from the existing automatic flag.
    – user4639281
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 18:02
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Suggestion: Can users be sent an automatic warning with a reminder to Be Nice if a number of their comments are flagged as rude? (3 in a week? 5 in a month? Recommendations welcome.)

Is anything like this already in place?

We sort of do this already. If a user has too many (more than three) rude/abusive or not constructive comment flags, a specific type of flag is automatically raised on their account for a moderator to review.

These flags help us identify problematic trends from users over time, and they're usually followed up on with a message to the user or a suspension in more egregious cases.

They're important and useful, because any given comment flag can be handled by any moderator, so a user generating three rude/abusive flags might have each of those flags handled by a different moderator. The moderator handling any single comment might not consider that lone comment cause for further action, but the custom "too many rude-abuse/non-constructive" flag prompts a moderator to more thoroughly scrutinize the subject user's recent behavior and interactions.

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  • Did you mean "no longer needed" as opposed to "not constructive" with regards to your note about automatic flags?
    – Travis J
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 20:10
  • If a message is removed for being rude why not let the user know immediately? Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 23:27
  • @tedivm because the mod UI for comment flags makes it very easy to accidentally validate a r/a flag on a comment that may not be r/a but does need to be deleted. Plus, doing this (particularly on SO scale) would be unsustainable. The mods would likely do little else other than send mod messages to people for single rude comments.
    – Catija
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 1:06
  • @Catija I wasn't suggesting that the mods manually do this, just that the stack overflow platform send an automated message when it occurs. Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 2:02
  • @tedivm probably worth reading my answer - it specifically addresses why auto messages are bad in this case.
    – Catija
    Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 2:09
  • It’s a great thing as long as the automatically raised flag causes a moderator to do an actual review of the user’s activity. Always keep in mind that people have different opinions of what’s being rude and some consider any critique as “rude”. On a site with millions of users, there may always be n users flagging a not-so-nice comment as “rude” while the other millions of users not even knowing that the comment has been flagged have no opportunity to state that they disagree. So don’t add an automated notification before the actual review. That will accuse a user with no way to respond.
    – Holger
    Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 7:20
23

What a great question! I'm not sure I have an answer other than: yes, yes we can and yes we absolutely should. It is my supposition that it is also not just a "growing perception" but rather an indisputable fact. If it makes us feel better to call it a "perception" that's fine, but the mere fact that there exists such a "perception" is a problem. I posit that it is not just one-off rude comments or snarky remarks that need addressing but a rather unfortunate large part of the SO ecosystem that needs attention.

I am just a lowly former active asker and (later) answerer of questions on SO. I am a cisgender white male and even I stopped participating in the SO community a number of years ago because I felt excluded. I can't imagine what it must be like to not possess the magic privilege triangle that I do and participate on SO without feeling disheartened by the toxicity that I feel has found a comfortable home on SO.

I openly admit it is easy to sit on the sidelines and shout things like "The community is toxic! It is mean-spirited! It is elitist! It is discriminatory!" but if enough voices exclaim such things, or even (I think) if one voice whispers such things, then perhaps we ought to take a hard look at the community as a whole and see what we can change, then take whatever measures to enact said change. I am using "we" here and not "you" even though I haven't been active on SO for a number of years now, because I believe this duty falls on each of us as SO community members.

I owe a great deal to SO and the knowledge I gained here, and that's one of the main reasons I wanted to contribute back by answering any and all questions I could. I don't post this to simply finger-point or make dissenting remarks, but rather because I still, after all these years, care about SO and its mission as originally laid out all those years ago, and because I do believe SO still has a chance of becoming an inclusive, nice place to ask questions and contribute to a vast database of knowledge if we all pitch in. But only if we admit that perhaps these problems exist, and take measures to make things right, instead of saying things like "well it never happened to me" or "well the bar for nicety has been raised in society" as ways of making ourselves feel better.

I've seen in the past, and see currently even in the remarks on this question, people asking for "hard data" about the exclusionary, elitist, and generally condescending atmosphere that exists on SO. I think that's a valiant pursuit, but quantifying such things with numbers and statistics is insanely difficult and, I believe, misses the point. The mere fact that people are feeling this way and voicing the fact that they are feeling this way should be enough for all of us to realize things need to change.

I'm not even sure I believe the idea that "the bar for being nice" has been moved up over the years as has been suggested in this question's answers. Perhaps though there is some truth to that, and even if there is, what's wrong then with raising the "bar" for the SO community as a whole? Did it ever hurt anyone to take a few moments to re-format your comment or your answer to be a bit more empathetic and compassionate?

For example, put yourself in the shoes of a new SO member who wants to ask a question. Said member has a very good chance her question will get obliterated (read: closed/deleted/) by the community (often with remarks like: "Read about how to ask a question before posting" or "this question has been asked a thousand times already!" or worse) simply because she didn't read every page of SO's stringent guidelines for asking questions.

I understand the goals of such community guidelines and principles are to keep content quality as high as possible, but I firmly believe that compassion, empathy, and inclusiveness do not share mutually exclusive relationships with quality, as has also been suggested in this questions answers/comments. Quite the opposite, in fact. And, even if (gasp) quality were to sometimes take a smaller backseat to compassion and kindness, wouldn't we all benefit? At the end of the day, SO is a community of humans and not computers right? But I guess I come from a mindset that "content quality" (what does that really even mean?) would do well sometimes to take a huge backseat to making people feel welcome and included. That's the only "quality" that matters at the end of the day for me.

My plea to the SO community at large is that we finally take a good hard look at ourselves in the mirror and admit there are things that need to change, and then make those changes.

Finally, in German it is sometimes said: Man kann nicht alle in eine Schublade stecken which roughly translates to: "One can't throw everyone in the same drawer." In other words, I don't want to make the claim that everyone on SO has made the community a toxic place, or that there aren't even people fighting actively in the trenches to help the community become a more inclusive place, I'm simply imploring all of us to realize that SO has a problem, and we all need to do our part to fix it. Jeff & Joel had a brilliant idea with StackOverflow, but they are not infallible, and neither is the community they started. Let's start to make things right.

Update: First, I am somewhat taken aback that the top-rated comment on this answer effectively seems to be saying (at least to me) that it's fine to be a jerk in the name of content quality. Really? Even if in the official SO guidelines to be nice? As the #1 source of QA developer information, is this the best we can do? Is this really how we all feel? Are we really happy with excluding people like this?

Secondly, I don't think we should be conflating the concepts of "being nice" or "being rude" with having compassion. Some of the comments on this answer mentioned that this "answer" is more of a statement of the problem than a solution. I admit that openly. Want concrete things we can do now? Let's rework the "Be Nice" page and get rid of the wishy washy "be nice" or "be rude" vocabulary and replace them with "compassion" and "empathy." Nice and rude are very subjective at the end of the day. One person's nice is another persons nasty. What isn't so subjective is having compassion and empathy, remembering that the person on the other end of the keyboard is a living breathing human being with feelings.

How about an update to moderator / user-mod guidelines as well? Add a suggestion that if you are getting upset about all the "bad questions" you are seeing than maybe it's time for you to step away from the keyboard yourself for a while. A community moderator, whether elected or user-mod, should never let their emotions affect their decisions or comments.

How about a blog post, or a serious of blog posts admitting that there IS indeed a less-than-ideal culture existent on SO and that we want to take, and are taking, measures to rectify it.

How about the staff reaching out to the developer community at large, on channels other than SO, and asking for honest non-SO community feedback. Ask THEM why they feel excluded instead of speculating in the (sometimes) echo-chamber that is SO meta.

Jeff himself mentioned that if we want to become better programmers, we should take ownership and figure out how things might be our fault. I think this is great advice and applies to the SO community as well. Even if we at first think we are doing nothing wrong, how about we take a few steps back and evaluate how we might IN FACT be doing some things wrong?

Will we ever satisfy everyone? No. But that's not what I'm after / the intent of my post. But can we create a welcoming, inclusive, compassionate community? Yes. I really believe we can.

Those are just a few concrete suggestions/ideas I have that may slowly help change the culture and make SO a truly welcoming and inclusive place.

47
  • 31
    "I firmly believe that compassion, empathy, and inclusiveness do not share mutually exclusive relationships with quality" You can firmly believe whatever you like, but empirical evidence proves that it isn't true. The site was more inclusive at its foundation, and it was inundated with crap. It was only when we clamped down did we get to a point of real quality. Your beliefs are at odds with objective reality. "And, even if (gasp) quality were to sometimes take a smaller backseat to compassion and kindness, wouldn't we all benefit?" No. Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 2:09
  • 12
    [2/4] What sets Stack Overflow apart from most other help and discussion forums is that we are collectively trying to build something: a library of questions and answers with long-term value. That is where our notion of quality stems from. We do expect everyone who posts here to buy into that goal at least a little bit; it also means there are ways of helping people to code we can't use here. (The flip side is that Stack Overflow model is just one very specific way of sharing knowledge, among many other valid ones.)
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 4:42
  • 5
    @NicolBolas: Firstly, I don't think that you can compare SO at its beginnings - when nobody knew how it would/should work - with SO now. Secondly, I resent the conflation of 'inclusiveness' with 'low quality' - exclusiveness is not a sign of quality. Objectively speaking. Thirdly, I'm worried about the people who walk away because they are tired of microagressions; I don't want SO to calcify as a site where one reads answers but daren't ask them. Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 8:27
  • 28
    "simply because she didn't read every page of SO's stringent guidelines for asking questions." I think there should be another place for people to go in this case, somewhere with less stringent guidelines. I am unclear why everyone has to use Stack Overflow? Just as an example, Stack Overflow is not intended for absolute beginners, there are far better designed software systems out there for people who are just starting out and learning to code from first principles. Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 9:38
  • 4
    "Stack Overflow is not even appropriate for beginners", these views are so 2011 :(
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 9:52
  • 7
    @green_knight: "Secondly, I resent the conflation of 'inclusiveness' with 'low quality'" Resent whatever you like, but if "inclusiveness" means "tolerating bad content", then it does mean "low quality". "Thirdly, I'm worried about the people who walk away because they are tired of microagressions" Why are you worried about that? There will always be more people to ask questions. The people who walk away were not going to be very good contributors anyway. Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 13:15
  • 10
    @DavidSchmitt: "A simplistic starting point: does every question and and answer need to be displayed and found for eternity?" But that's the whole point of SO; to change that is to essentially say that SO is something completely different, all so that we can tolerate crap questions. No thanks. A much better change would be to prevent garbage questions from being asked in the first place. To use algorithms and heuristics that accurately predict whether a question will be downvoted and closed, and then not allow it to be asked. Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 13:16
  • 15
    @DavidSchmitt: Why can't the "people who need help the most" be bothered to ask for it reasonably? Have you ever even considered that question? Why is it that we're expected to do all the work of trying to figure out what some poorly phrased question is trying to say? Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 17:46
  • 17
    @green_knight: Because everyone who talks about "inclusiveness" is defending content that should not be on the site. Show me a way to get "inclusiveness" such that bad content continues to be downvoted, closed, and removed in a timely fashion, and we can talk. But most people who talk about how SO is not "inclusive" are talking about how quickly we shut down bad content. It doesn't matter if the content is bad for ESL reasons, not being "steeped in Internet culture", or whatever; a poorly asked question is poorly asked and should be closed. Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 19:20
  • 4
    @green_knight: The mental model is "people come, ask a low-quality/newbie question, get downvoted/closed/deleted, go away". Snark is not necessary for them to leave. Any action which causes their content to be properly categorized as unacceptable will cause them to leave. Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 19:22
  • 9
    @green_knight: newbie and low-quality questions are not synonymous with each other. Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 19:26
  • 19
    ...As was said elsewhere, "If you make the primary purpose "helping people" (with the implicit "at all costs" that goes along with it), and let "build a repository" be the secondary purpose, the secondary purpose is going to get forgotten and SO will devolve into a sh!tty Experts Exchange clone..." - I don't want this to happen simply because I want Stack Overflow to stay useful to me
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 20:50
  • 7
    @green_knight: Yes - provided they ask in good faith. The question, then, is where we should draw the line. Pasting an entire homework assignment, followed by "Give me an answer", verbatim, after having been shown a help article designed specifically to help you understand what sort of questions we expect on the site and how you can have a good first experience, doesn't come across to me as good faith. Even the most polite response that the asker's question is too broad would still be perceived as rude, for the sole reason that it's not what they would have liked to hear. What, then?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 12:22
  • 8
    lol 'I'm worried about the people who walk away because they are tired of microagressions' - I assume that only applies to those asking questions, not user-moderators who continualy have to shovel the same crap day-after-day. That set of users, of course, can be ignored as irrelevant as usual, and hammered without any effective recourse. Commented Apr 13, 2018 at 9:49
  • 7
    'I want any genuine user to feel welcome'.... [except high-rep user-moderators] Commented Apr 13, 2018 at 9:51
19

Why not try to stop the comment before it is posted?

Yes we have the technology! We would not catch 'em all, and probably have a few negatives, but it could work like this.

  1. User posted a comment
  2. SE runs comment in internal or external API (community is willing to help, we can provide feeds, we can build API from what we have, we can review your feeds, tell us what you need it all free of charge!)
  3. If comment is classified as "Not nice", user is notified that comment does not seem to be "appropriate". We could even customize the message on the basis of: is commenter OP; what reputation do they have; how bad is the comment (heat detection score)?

Initially it could be only a dialog notifying you, hence you can choose "No sorry, don't post it" or "Yes post it, let 'em know what I think".

Why could this be a useful method?

I have, during these last years, been monitoring comments on Stack Overflow with a bot using regex and machine learning which outputs results to chat. The background is that I asked SE for a dump of rude comments, which they supplied. After some reviewing of the dump (it had its problem), we built some machine learning models, added some regex and got an API key to also use perspective API. Today we have approximately 50.000 (fifty thousand) comments that were classified as "not nice".

Let me tell you what my two-cent analysis is during this time that I have seen as the primary cause to "heat" on Stack Overflow.

Comments on bad question

1. Established user comments that question is not OK

Nothing screams "homework dump" as loudly as a bulleted list copy/pasted from Word.

You're not very eager to read documentation and tutorials and to google, are you?.

Someone up-voted this crap? Really??

OP sometimes reacts with

stop pretend wise guy ... if you want to help you help if you do not, then go away...

Fuck off faggot!

Listen ass! You've got no right to mark me fucking -1 for not showing you any evidence of effort. You have no idea, for how much I've be searching for this. This is the platform where anyone can ask questions and people who are interested would answer them. Unlike you, who just commented shit. And yeah, it's been answered on every site but it is not cleared. Java learners are not gonna work on fruits and vegetable. I just wanted to know how to use these things in a live software with just a simple REAL WORLD EXAMPLE. Bitchass! Thank you for ruining my question!

2. Multiple established users have popcorn on bad question

@XX: I have an image in my head of Minions (from Despicable Me 2) putting out a fire - one with an axe to destroy walls, one with a water hose seriously out of control, and a third with a loudhailer: Ne na ne na ne na :-)'

@XX I can answer that for you: "nothing" and are wanting to be fed like "deer in a kiddy park". Also ignoring comments given here.

OP sometimes react with

You should be able to guess it by now.

3. Established users fighting on answer, this is all from why did you downvote to argue about what is good and bad practice.

Please don't encourage people to ask these questions by answering them, especially by giving them the answer without teaching them anything

@XX In fact you down-voted the answer in revenge. Such as you should be banned.

Yes your answer should be as well for encouraging a bad question. Spend more time on the site and you'll realize why these questions are explicitly off topic; it has nothing to do with my reputation. This is a publicly moderated site. People down voting you has nothing to do with them playing God, and everything to do with them not wanting to see this site dissolve into the typical crap-hole most public forums eventually fall into.

@XX A full solution is very useful instead of your stupid comment.

Lets leave 3 for a while (they can probably handle it them self, they fight/flag each other and business continues as usual) and instead focus on 1 and 2 which also seems to be the focus of this question.

Our vicious circle

Bad question --> "not nice" comments by an established user pointing this out --> angry comment from OP.

The OP thinks Stack Overflow is negative lately and the established user feels that OP is rude; posting no-research, homework, do-my-work questions.

Flaggers and mods can't do much, we abusive flag OP's response, we no-longer need flag established user comment (yes on meta and among mods, there is a feeling that this correct flag), probably question is closed and Roomba'd and next day we iterate it again.

The obvious solution is

Remove the bad question; Tim has already touched it. In my first year on SO I tried with a clumsy suggestion but Cody later did it better: Let's improve Stack Overflow's "Ask a Question" page!

However we will not be able to remove them all and it's then that some programming kicks in.

  • If we detect snark from established user, we alert 'em and ask them instead to downvote and close vote and explain that their comment only creates more mess (it's not doing Stack Overflow a favor; OP will not take that advice if he feel that you are not nice).

  • If we detect an offensive response from OP, we alert 'em and ask them to not respond. Instead, flag, read the close banner (if closed), and inform them about the be-nice policy. Yes, many will just click through the dialog but a few honest ones will certainly stop.

Affiliation, I'm the developer of HeatDetector, admin of SOBotics GitHub and RO in SOBotics chat, but these projects are community built and only aimed to improve Stack Overflow for future users with no cost for SE

1
  • maybe I should do a snippet and hide the response from OP, but well I guess you already seen those responses a few 100 times, if moderator feels it's better feel free to edit Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 8:40
16

I'm going to preface this answer a bit with some information about myself:

  • I'm not a SO user.
  • I'm a moderator on two sites including Interpersonal Skills which, in the time it's existed until now (~9 months), has had over 15K comments deleted. This is nothing on SO scale but I think I know a bit about comments.
  • I'm posting here because
    1. Many things that get implemented on SO eventually end up being implemented network-wide.
    2. I have some ideas that might help.

Now that's out of the way...


The indication I've gotten about Stack Overflow (and much of the SE network, to be honest) is that it's easy and friendly if you've gotten past your first few good questions/answers but the learning curve is steep and the users who respond to your posts (if anyone does) may be somewhat tired of dealing with new users who don't understand how to ask a good question or write a good answer.

I completely understand that. It's difficult to, day after day, run into the same sorts of errors and not start to wish that everyone couldn't just do better at knowing what to do. It's difficult to remember that each new user is (probably) new and hasn't run into a site like SO before with so much rigor and expectations from their questions.

It seems there's work being done to find ways to help educate new users before they're able to post their first question or answers - speed bumps, if you will. This may not alleviate the issue entirely, but (hopefully) it will reduce it... so, on the assumption that there's movement in that direction...

How can we help users who are regularly getting comments flagged as rude or abusive understand that what they're doing isn't OK and that it needs to change?

Suggestion: Can users be sent an automatic warning with a reminder to Be Nice if a number of their comments are flagged as rude? (3 in a week? 5 in a month? Recommendations welcome.)

As others have said, after three validated rude comments in a week, an autoflag is created by the system to alert the mods that they may have some work to do. This autoflag is helpful. I've seen it several times on IPS. It's a valuable flag.

That said, I strongly reject the idea of an automated warning being sent to a user for this. If the likelihood of a comment being incorrectly validated as rude/abusive was low - or if there were a way to change the flag validation after the fact, it'd be one thing but the default moderator UI - particularly when viewing comments on posts - makes it very easy to accidentally validate a rude/abusive comment flag just by deleting the comment - if they're viewing the post directly, the moderator may not know the comment was flagged at all!

For those who aren't moderators -

Moderators have two ways to view flags

  • on the post directly with a hover bar bottom-locked to the page (the "waffle bar").
  • on the active flags page which gives the content of the flagged comment and title of the post it's on.

The latter is often used but may be somewhat lacking in context. My personal preference is to go to the post but we don't have the volume that SO does.

When a comment is flagged, moderators can either delete a comment, edit it, or dismiss the flag. Unless the comment is otherwise valuable but has minor issues, we're unlikely to edit it. We can not validate a comment flag without first deleting the comment - we can later undelete it if we feel like it, though this is rare in my experience.

In some cases a user may incorrectly flag a comment as rude/abusive - perhaps the moderator simply disagrees or perhaps it's a matter of interpretation or someone is doing it will ill intent - but a comment not being rude/abusive doesn't make it not delete-worthy. So, a moderator going through dozens of comment flags (as I understand is often the case on SO) may see that comment is flagged but not with what reason. They agree it should be deleted, it's deleted and the flag is automatically validated, regardless of the reason.

If a moderator is paying attention, and they notice that the comment should be removed but the flag should be declined, it becomes a two-step process that requires going to the post to manage.

There are user scripts that help with this but errors are still possible. As such, if something that sends automatic moderator messages was considered, I suggest that it be set quite high to reduce the likelihood of errors causing it to be sent.


A new automatic moderator flag

The automatic flag should absolutely stay - it's very useful and I'd propose a second automatic flag to pair with it. As I noted, on IPS we delete many comments and many comments are flagged. Sometimes, often, the users who have their comments flagged as "no longer needed" are just as much in need of a written warning about their chatty comments. This is particularly the case as the opposite of what I mentioned above often happens, too.

Some users don't like using rude/abusive flags, even if a comment meets that description or, perhaps is borderline but not quite rude. This means that, unless a moderator chooses to manually flag the post as rude/abusive instead of validating a NLN flag, the count of rude comments may not be accurate. But surely, having 20 comments total in a week flagged might also be cause for moderator intervention?

If users don't understand the comment policy on a site (or the network) it's helpful to give moderators a poke rather than expecting us to recognize "repeat offenders" for chatty or unnecessary comments. Yes, this could trigger some false positives for users who merely comment a lot in a helpful way and have those comments flagged once they've served their purpose, but I think this would be rare and the trigger could easily be adjusted to something that meets the needs of the site.

In addition to this, it's worth noting that the number of comments flagged compared to the number deleted is pretty different, at least on IPS. We have deleted over 15K comments but only about 5K of those were flagged, which means that, for us anyway, 2/3rds of our rude or NLN comments were never reported to us.

Often this is because users will flag a single comment or the post it's on to say "the comments here can be removed" or we're alerted to a huge comment volume by the "more than 20 comments in three days" auto flag ... but other times it's a matter of a moderator seeing the comments before they're flagged (this is probably less common on SO).


A couple of people have suggested that letting people know when their comments are deleted would be a good intermediate step.

I'm sorry, but I have a really difficult time taking this suggestion seriously. Users already complain when their not rude comments are deleted or moved to chat. In an informal poll of my own personal moderation experience, I've found that telling them (in a comment) that comments were removed is a great way to start an argument about their comments where they attempt to explain in great detail why their comments weren't rude and how people are too sensitive and...

Yeah. Please, no.


What else might help?

A default moderator message template that actually applies only to rude/abusive comments and doesn't address arguments would be really useful to me. We have a generic "Abusive to others" one and one for "Arguments in comments" but neither of these really address single comments that don't start discussions. We can absolutely edit the default ones but if we want to encourage sending these mod messages, the easiest way to do that is to make it easier on the moderators - give us a default that doesn't imply that the person who wrote the comments was "wronged" or that the mod message might be in error.

14

Answering or commenting on a question is critical by its nature, and it's harder to be nice while being critical at the same time. Or perhaps it's too easy to be meaner than we need to be. But there are simple things we can do when answering or commenting on a question that help.

Here's an example.

Something I try to do in my answers and comments (and don't always remember) is to use language which deliberately dissociates the person from the code or practice. I don't want to write "your code"; I want to write "the code".

It's a subtle difference, but when pointing out a mistake in "your code", I'm directly attributing that mistake to you, personally. In a very small way it's a personal attack, and people don't really like that. When I point out a mistake in "the code", it's less personal, less of an attack, even if you still wrote it (which, remember, isn't always the case).

But that's just one thing. It's a play in a playbook. Something we should be asking is how we can collect these plays, these little techniques, to grow the playbook, and then communicate this playbook to other people who predominately answer and comment on questions.

Coming back to this later, one way we could attempt to build this playbook is via a "Bad Habits to Avoid" collection. Lead off with things people may have heard: "well actually", "just", "simply", and then add newer items like "your code".

7
  • Great idea. Let's give it a go: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/365929/2751851
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 16:07
  • 2
    I'm guessing that the barometer for success here lies somewhere between "Kumbaya" and "Jerkass", and it's more preferable that we approach "Kumbaya" without actually landing on it. The idea of a personal playbook sounds like it fits in-between the spectrum, but asking us to share it sounds like we're landing on "Kumbaya", and I would really rather not.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 16:17
  • @Makoto I get what you mean -- I found it a little awkward to choose the wording of the playbook question without making it sound too prescriptive. I'm open to suggestions on how to tweak it to move it closer to the "center".
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 20:50
  • 3
    Not only is dissociating the code by the asker a good idea, in some cases associating them is wrong because the code actually wasn't written by them and in many of those cases cannot be changed by them. For example, comments pointing out "you can avoid having to do Y by not doing X in the first place" are unhelpful when the asker simply cannot do anything about X because it's not their code to change.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 13, 2018 at 5:26
  • @Makoto I have added a few meta remarks to my question which also attempt to address what you point out here, at least in part. (I believe that that sharing the plays need not mean "landing on 'Kumbaya'" as long as the goals of doing so are appropriately modest.)
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 13, 2018 at 8:19
  • It's a good point and I do try to do this. It's so easy to slip into bad habits though.
    – user692942
    Commented Apr 16, 2018 at 23:52
  • Thinking back on this... one way we could attempt this is creating a "Bad Habits to Avoid" collection. Things like "just", "simply", "well actually", "your code", etc. Commented Apr 30, 2020 at 14:40
10

I lately got into habit of picking stuff for close vote review from recent low score questions instead of regular review queue. What I observe there is rather high amount of comments like you seem to worry about, those that could easily qualify as snarky / rude.

Heuristics that currently picks cases for bringing to mod attention could probably be updated to give more weight to flags on comments in recent low score questions.

Worth noting that Jeff Atwood made somewhat similar but possibly even more promising suggestion to pay closer attention to first comments to new user's questions in comments under one of the answers here:

missing here is what the stack overflow blog research found in 2012: the first comments and first answers to a new user's question are particularly critical, and thus the system should provide extra cues in these specific cases. Both to the commenter/answerer, and to the new user. Just in time reminders work.

Another very promising feature request has been recently raised at MSE: Allow new users to flag comments on their own posts. Offering new users an option to flag rude / abusive comments under their question may have some disadvantages but I'd expect that overall impact would be a definite improvement over what we have now.


That said, I myself abstain of flagging such comments and am not going to flag them in future.

To avoid misunderstanding I want that there be less of these and I generally don't mind increasing my helpful flag count. I simply don't want to be involved into activity that feels so apparently fruitless.

Whenever there is a blatantly inappropriate question hanging open for many hours or days there will be site regulars angry and desperate seeing it and willing to express their feelings because they lack power to handle this poor content.

Moderators can remove and suspend all day long but there are just too many frustrated site regulars for them to handle, as long as there are too many inappropriate questions hanging open.

I've seen many attempts to force site regulars stay nice in the face of garbage flooding the site and every time it didn't help and I don't see how this time it could be any different,

how come that after years of plugging users' mouths and twisting their arms with summers of love and hunting the snark, the second-highest-voted question at MSO is Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late? Makes one wonder if this way works, doesn't it?

4
  • 1
    I disagree that flagging inappropriate flags on low score questions is fruitless. We all began at SO once. As a newish user myself, I believe a new user who posts a poor question and sees a belittling or otherwise rude response can be turned into a valuable contributor. It's more likely to happen if he/she is treated with respect. I often see rude/belittling comments heavily upvoted. I flag them even if I agree with the message because there is never a need to be rude.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 9:29
  • 2
    @jpp I did that in the past. I dropped this as I said only after I discovered that this way doesn't work. It's like 5th or 6th attempt to address the issue I observe and none so far worked, and as I said I see no reasons why it could work this time. "how come that after years of plugging users' mouths and twisting their arms with summers of love and hunting the snark, the second-highest-voted question at MSO is Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late? Makes one wonder if this way works, doesn't it?"
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 9:31
  • 2
    OK, I guess we are all driven by our experiences. Maybe in time my opinion will change. I can appreciate your sentiment, even if I don't agree with it. My attitude is driven by how I would feel if my initial poor questions were rudely commented upon.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 9:33
  • 2
    I totally understand you @jpp because I felt like you several years ago, and it's great to see people concerned about this issue and keeping trying to tackle it. Feels a bit sad that you likely will become like me a few years later after you find out the same as I discovered but oh well
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 12, 2018 at 9:36
9

...There are too many comments. – Shog9♦ 2 days ago

Indeed. I suspect the reality is that the vast majority of comments under questions serve almost no good purpose at all, even when they are polite. Most of the discussion so far seems to have focused on how to better moderate the comment system as it currently exists.

If we want higher quality comments on questions I think one component of the response should be to make it fundamentally more difficult to leave a comment via UI changes. What if we completely rethink the entire comment UI?

Comments under questions are primarily intended for one purpose: to elicit clarifications on question to make them clearer and more answerable. The current UI does almost nothing to guide users toward that end.

Consider how much UI effort is expended here toward askers, ways in which we increase the friction for asking a question in the name of improving quality. The comment UI under questions should be redesigned with a similar goal.

The comment UI under questions should contain considerably more friction and have a much heavier hand in pushing users toward a single type of comment: clarification requests.

Imagine some of the following hypotheticals:

  • The text link under a question should read "request a clarification" not "add a comment". This is such a simple easy thing that could reframe the user's mind toward the purpose of a "comment". The subsequent button should be labelled "post your request" not "add comment", etc.
  • The text box shown to the user could be pre-populated with a prompt, geared toward a polite request for more information, e.g. "Could you please provide more information about " with the cursor placed at the end. The user could remove the prompt, but again it adds more friction.
  • If there are pre-existing "comments" the user could be forced to move through a dialog box first giving them the option to simply up-voting an existing "comment". Again, the user would be able to dismiss the dialog, but more friction.
  • The asker could be shown a "clarify question" text with no option to leave their own comment. That linked text could take them directly to the question editing UI, annotated with the clarification requests and prompts to address them directly in the question text.
  • Miscellaneous: smaller tweaks might include removing the ability to @ users other than the asker in comments and reducing the character maximum.

I am far from a UI design expert, so take all that more in the spirit of a general idea than the specifics. The point would be make it much less appealing to add comments in general and to use a much heavier hand to funnel users toward leaving a specific kind of comment only.

There would be costs to this kind of change. This kind of UI design would essentially kill any sort of back-and-forth in the comments that might in some circumstances be useful to flesh out the question. It would make it much less appealing to leave a minimal "answer stub" in the comments, but I think we should be discouraging that in any case. I'm sure there are other downsides that I haven't thought of...

I've focused here solely on the idea of redesigning the comment UI under questions only. The comments under answers are used differently enough that I think they would require different treatment.

4
7

There is definitely more that can be done.

I once suggested that the recidivism system be applied to comments where users were then prevented from commenting for certain periods of time based on the amount of comments they had deleted by moderation or flags.

I still think that is a good idea, however, from discussions with some of the other moderators and Community Managers here at Stack Exchange, the resounding response that I heard was "If a user cannot be trusted to comment politely, then they shouldn't have their comment ability removed, they should be suspended." So, that is what I would suggest here.

Either a comment ban or an actual timed suspension ("cooldown period") tied to some threshold for deleted comments (where the deletion was not the result of self deletion, post deletion, or from a system generated comment) which would require a Moderator to approve prior to being instated.

The Be Nice policy was a good start, now it needs enforcement.

2
  • 5
    I still think the automatic part is dangerous unless reviewed by moderators because comments with enough rude flags are auto-deleted without mod review (IIRC). This would leave open the possibility for a group of users, or a single user with multiple accounts capable of flagging, to suspend a user by exceeding the threshold of rude flags on a number of their comments regardless of whether the comments are actually rude. This would require mod review to prevent abuse, so why not just raise an auto flag when a user has x number of comments deleted with active rude flags?
    – user4639281
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 20:15
  • 1
    @TinyGiant - That is a fair point to make. I think that is a good direction to go as well, and also aligns with what Brad Larson was talking about with regards to wanting more notification of automatic removal from community flags. I edited that into my post.
    – Travis J
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 20:17
-20

Lately it feels like there's a growing perception that Stack Overflow is not a nice place

And that's all there is. Perception. Is not true. That's why you should see hard statistics about the state of the site. There were only 12k comments flagged as rude or offensive on the entire 2016 (which compared with the 238k comments flagged, is just 5% of all comments flagged), a thousand per month, a little more than 1 per hour... while in an hour I recall than around 2k comments are posted, just 0.05% of all comments are flagged as rude (compared to the 27 comments flagged every hour on average, 1% of the total of comments posted). So, SO may appear to not be a nice place, but rudeness has nothing to do with it*.

* Unless you consider rude to be told that your contributions aren't up to the standards of the site.

23
  • 3
    Although it's technically true, it doesn't really solve the problem -- notify the posters of bad comments.
    – user202729
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 13:52
  • 14
    Perceptions don't just spring up out of nowhere. You can't expect a new user to care that there were 2000 other comments posted that hour when the one comment they got on their question was rude. Not everyone sees the whole site the way many of us do. I'd like it if more people did. Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 14:12
  • 10
    Yeah.. 5% is about what I would expect, given experience of people in general. 95% of people I have met are friendly, well-adjusted, don't take kindly to being abused, and don't go out of their way to abuse anyone else. Then there is the other 5%. Take any collection of people, irrespective of factors like age,, sex, career, race, ethnicity, religion etc, and there will be that 5%. SO is not 'toxic', merely normal:) Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 14:15
  • 4
    @yivi well, compilers and linkers are not nice either. This is tech Q&A site, not Oprah. Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 14:19
  • 10
    @Martin This might not be a social network or a forum, but we are still people. No need to be "Oprah" to avoid being unnecessary rude. You can tell someone that their question is not up to scratch in a non-insulting way. If we can't... well, I guess all those complaining about us were right after all.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 14:22
  • 4
    @yivi I'm open to suggestions as to how to wrap up NPE etc. in a fashion that tells the OP that they did not do any research first without tellling the OP that they did not do any research first. Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 14:32
  • 4
    Maybe compiler/linker style error-messages? 'Error #06, NPE unresearched multiple duplicate in paragraph 1: question handling terminated with action downClose' Any professional/enthusiast programmer could hardly object to that:) Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 14:39
  • 12
    Wait. You're using reported statistics to determine if something is or isn't true? Reported statistics alone don't tell the whole story. As for "rudeness", it can take many shapes and forms, and calling someone incompetent in so many words (a-la "why don't you just use a debugger" or "why are you doing it like this") is one such form that is both not flaggable and leaves an indelible impression of the site.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 15:11
  • 1
    I just put 'Debugger................' The other six words I can't be bothered to type out to those questions where step/breakpoint/whatever would have quickly identified the problem and no debugging has been attempted. Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 15:42
  • 8
    @Braiam: You're not going to have a very good time explaining that to the victims of actual and real violence in the world who aren't in a position to report their circumstance. That's the parallel I'm drawing here; it happens more often than we like it to. Hard data is easy to access, but the hard data is incomplete at best. You kind of have to acknowledge that whenever you get into a discussion about "hard data".
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 15:43
  • 8
    You're missing my point - you believe it to be a good indication, and I'm flat-out stating it isn't. There's more data to be found than what's reported and it's not fair to anyone to just look at the data you can easily gather.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 16:18
  • 5
    "Unless you consider rude to be told that your contributions aren't up to the standards of the site." This is a fundamental misapprehension that I see repeated a lot. The FACTS you convey cannot be rude. Rudeness is not factual, it's a social construct. It's not rude to point out a problem. It's rude when your wording makes it clear you consider the person to be incompetent or foolish, not just incorrect. It's not that friggin' hard not to be a douchebag.
    – barbecue
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 18:24
  • 3
    @barbecue Actually in some cultures and societies it is rude to point out a mistake or problem someone has, because, like you said, rudeness is largely cultural.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 10, 2018 at 18:53
  • 3
    @TylerH so... they have rude compilers and linkers? I always had my suspicions :) Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 9:37
  • 3
    @MartinJames Yes, have you ever used JSLint?
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 11, 2018 at 13:23

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