-24

Stackoverflow, as a social media approach to information gathering, has classic struggles with signal to noise issues. In such systems "checks and balances" tend to work best. S.O. moderators have a positive effect increasing signal to noise by "checking" for and eliminating noise, yet can occasionally go too far (as with this exact question in its original, admittedly less than well articulated form, by marking it a duplicate of the numerous why-is-this-a-dup questions). It was not. Despite a carefully designed moderation procedure, the "balance" for our system is slightly off. There appears to be more a focus at present on the rules, than on S.O.'s original purpose.

Dups are a hot topic, but this is exactly one of the examples that highlight this question. Slightly different questions are sometimes too quickly marked as dups (eliminating the ability to answer special corner cases). Slightly different answers (that answer the OP in an inexact way) are "off-topic". Thus valuable information is being lost. More than once I've had an answer that I could not submit because the correct question was locked as a dup. (I will work to record these as I find them in the future - apologies that I do not have a list handy today.)

How to solve this? Do we try to make the rules even more precise? Or can we refocus our balance toward finding more signal as opposed to too much noise elimination? Clearly we have limited resources and must make this somewhat of a trade-off. Can the community help with "balance"?

(This question is apparently also a hot topic as so many seem to take it as undue criticism. I've never spent so much time on a question - and unfortunately cannot spend more for the next several dozen hours.)

(Edit: rewritten to clarify and address "this is a dup" issues)

25
  • 6
    "Many times however moderators (likely overworked) [...] As a moderator, regardless of work load, will you exercise your power to [...]" -- By "moderators", do you mean the elected moderators (as in the election currently going on)? If so, note that question closing and other day-to-day moderation actions are mostly performed not by elected moderators with their set of exceptional powers, but by regular users. For instance, you already have some moderation powers (e.g. you can upvote and downvote), and with more ~2500 rep you will be able to close vote as well.
    – duplode
    Mar 27, 2018 at 5:34
  • 6
    This really sounds like it was meant to be posted on the 2018 Moderator Election Q&A - Question Collection... Mar 27, 2018 at 5:42
  • Food for thought for all with moderation powers (including myself) - but clearly encouraging more thought for those with more power. It would make a good question for the election. (at 3000 I would get to vote to close ie. review - which is not really "moderation", at 2500 I would get to suggest duplicates)
    – duanev
    Mar 27, 2018 at 5:49
  • 9
    @duanev no thought required. Years of experience has demonstrated that any attempt to 'promote a more altruistic goal' by relaxation or avoidance of the current rules/policy would merely allow even more abuse of the user-moderators volunteered time by those users who selfishly try to get SO to do all their work for them and will lie, cheat and socially-engineer themselves into a job and/or passing-grade without any regard whatsoever for anyone else. Anyway, why "rules" in double-quotes - do you imagine that they don't exist or can be casually ignored if not agreed with? Mar 27, 2018 at 6:14
  • 1
    'Many times however moderators (likely overworked) are too quick to see similarity and then miss important distinctions between questions' examples, please, of such errors that were not subsequently corrected by following the "rules". Mar 27, 2018 at 6:17
  • 3
    "slightly off topic answers sometimes contain very useful content which also gets thrashed" -- This really could do with a concrete example. I can't tell if by "thrash[ing]" you mean deleting answers, downvoting answers, editing answers, deleting questions, closing questions, etc.
    – duplode
    Mar 27, 2018 at 6:25
  • 6
    It just isn't the job of "overworked moderators" to prove that a question is not a duplicate. It is the job of the question poster. He needs to reference the duplicate and explain how his question is different. The "on hold" status gives him time to take care of the edit. The edit re-activates the question so SO users can vote to re-open it again. Mar 27, 2018 at 7:05
  • @MartinJames I'll agree with a couple of your points - I've edited the question to focus on "over-moderation". The community cannot overrule a moderator action - we can't even comment, let alone vote on moderation actions - thus there is no check-and-balance for over-moderation. Yes there is abuse by slackers, and it should be deleted. Both extremes exist - so what are we doing to find the middle ground? Thought is always required - which is exactly why I posted - to encourage those with ultimate powers to use them with thought and not get overwhelmed by the barrage of trash.
    – duanev
    Mar 27, 2018 at 7:39
  • 9
    "The community cannot overrule a moderator action - we can't even comment, let alone vote on moderation ". This is just plain wrong. The community can re-open a post closed by a moderator, thus overruling the action. You can comment on moderating actions by pinging the person involved (exception for deleted content) and the vast majority of moderation that is done on this site is done via votes from its community members.
    – ivarni
    Mar 27, 2018 at 8:39
  • @ivarni (a) The community must react to a closing with significant numbers within a short time in order to reopen a post - else it is gone. Moderators don't have a ticking clock. (b) Seriously? We are supposed to initiate a personal discussion with the voting moderators about the closing?! This is a drastically higher hurdle for the majority of users than would be a community vote on the moderation. "Plain wrong" is an exaggeration sir.
    – duanev
    Mar 27, 2018 at 15:16
  • 3
    "Will the community get to vote? No they will not." Mate, I think you should take a step back and consider what you're saying. Mods (diamond mods, specifically) can't perma-close a question, unless they lock it. If they lock it for dumb reasons, it'll come up on Meta and the community will get it back in check. The 5 high rep individuals that closed your question are part of the community. They are moderators in the sense that we all are, but aren't diamond mods.
    – Kendra
    Mar 27, 2018 at 15:57
  • 3
    @duanev Posts don't need to be reopened quickly to get reopened. Posts can (and have) been reopened years after they were closed. If you want to discuss the closure of a post then yeah, you need to initiate a discussion about it. If you don't want to discuss it, then you certainly don't need to. Saying that you're "plain wrong" when you make a statement that's unambiguously demonstrably false isn't exaggerating. Just because you don't like the actual answer doesn't mean it's not correct.
    – Servy
    Mar 27, 2018 at 16:04
  • 2
    The key is slightly different. Visitors will probably find 42 slightly different questions with some answers that all have to evaluate. By having a kind of canonical question with ALL the answers that apply they'll find all knowledge they need to solve their specific problem in one place, not in 42 places.
    – rene
    Mar 27, 2018 at 16:17
  • 4
    Also worth mentioning that I don't moderate for the OP, I moderate for the Google-ers that arrive on that Q/A. They need to be served. So I honestly don't care that the slightly different question of some users didn't get an exact matching answer that fits 100% on their slightly specific question.
    – rene
    Mar 27, 2018 at 16:19
  • 5
    Questions that fail to explain what the actual issue is, except some vague assumptions, but do seem to pressure us in moderating less don't end well yes, and for good reasons I think. Let's move on. I have questions to close ...
    – rene
    Mar 27, 2018 at 17:26

1 Answer 1

11

As a moderator, regardless of work load, will you exercise your power to promote the "rules" above all else, or to promote the more altruistic goal stackoverflow originally embodied?

Altruism doesn't necessarily mean trying to help in any and all ways conceivable. While "[making] the internet better" is certainly an altruistic mission, Stack Overflow purports to do so in a very specific manner:

With your help, we're working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming.

The goal of "build[ing] a library" of questions and answers orientates how posts here should look like. In particular, they should be easily searchable, have a high signal-to-noise ratio and hold long-term value. Most of the rules here follow from that. Without them, the site wouldn't be able to help as much in the way it is meant to do so -- as for other ways of helping, there are other venues better suited for that.

Further reading: Why is “Can someone help me?” not an actual question?; What is Stack Overflow’s goal?


[...] are too quick to see similarity and then miss important distinctions between questions - mistakenly mapping OP questions together, closing threads, and thus truncating subsequent useful solutions and comments.

A mistaken closure is just that -- a mistake, something that is not supposed to happen, and that the rules do not justify. If you believe a closure shouldn't have happened, you can point that out in a comment (if it is a gold-badge, single-vote duplicate closure, you can even notify the close voter directly) and, once you have enough reputation, cast a reopen vote, which will send it to a review queue which is meant to catch such mistakes (as well as to act upon recently closed questions that have been significantly improved).

3
  • Of course I should have had a list of examples ready to support my claim - I'll compile one in the future. I ran across over moderation several times in the past few months - but of course for you this is just hearsay. For the moment I will leave it at: I do not see this goal we're working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming as being a primary focus for everyone, including some of those entrusted with the most power.
    – duanev
    Mar 27, 2018 at 7:54
  • 6
    @duanev so... a long way of saying that you have no examples:( I have examples of under-moderation. Some users, for example, have issued more than 70 times more upvotes than downvotes, but I hestiate to name actual names. Mar 27, 2018 at 8:48
  • Imagine that @MartinJames, an example [meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/365142/… turned only a few hours ago :)
    – duanev
    Mar 27, 2018 at 15:44

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .