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Massive downvotes are demoralizing. Can we make the downvote button on meta disappear so that people don't get afraid to ask more questions about the site?

As community is not in favour of making meta anonymous (Make posting on meta anonymous for some period to increase objectivity), may be removing downvote button can help? Thoughts?

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    downvotes in meta does not affect rep and is used prolifically.. Maybe these users should reflect on the negative feedback here rather than get demoralized over something that does not even affect their internet points
    – Suraj Rao
    Mar 21, 2018 at 18:35
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    Terminally bad questions are demoralizing. Mar 21, 2018 at 18:41
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    @MartinJames I've always heard people saying that there is no such thing as a dumb question.
    – Tachyon
    Mar 21, 2018 at 18:44
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    @Tachyon I've heard people say that too, but why does the butter not make a banana?
    – Davy M
    Mar 21, 2018 at 18:45
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    @Tachyon yes but, oddly, none of those people were SO user-moderators. Mar 21, 2018 at 18:45
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    As community is not in favour of making meta anonymous... I don't even understand what problem that's supposed to solve. I thought it was about preventing the Meta effect but then it turned out OP was upset about a joke they didn't understand on their previous Meta question but on that post they were arguing we should be OK with jokes that others might find offensive so I'm just over here like: ???
    – BSMP
    Mar 21, 2018 at 18:46
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    @Tachyon And those people were wrong. Now, perhaps those people were willing to try to answer questions even though they were bad questions. Perhaps because they were paid to answer your questions, or were otherwise socially obligated to attempt to answer your questions no matter how bad they are, or refuse to tell you when you asked a bad question, or whatever. That doesn't mean the question wasn't bad, just that they weren't allowed to tell you that it was bad. It's a shame that more people (outside SO) don't spend time considering what makes a good question, and teaching that to others.
    – Servy
    Mar 21, 2018 at 18:47
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    I guess I should clarify my comment a bit more; Saying that "There are no stupid questions" is an invitation to people to not be afraid of not knowing something. This is completely different from a poorly asked question, which has some overlap with not-useful questions and off-topic questions, depending on the question. Questions that are not on topic or of a certain quality waste time for the people who are trying to help. If a person who wants to help has to wade through a sea of unanswerable and useless questions to find places where they can actually be helpful, they might just not help.
    – Davy M
    Mar 21, 2018 at 18:49
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    @Tachyon do you have a proposal for a different mechanism to give feedback over poor questions or even disagreement?
    – Suraj Rao
    Mar 21, 2018 at 18:51
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    I can't imagine that requiring every user who disagrees or find a problem with your question to post a comment saying so would be less demoralizing. At least the post score is just a number. 100+ comments (and we do have posts with vote scores in the hundreds) that are all some variation of "your question is bad" would be worse. Also, RIP your notifications.
    – BSMP
    Mar 21, 2018 at 19:04
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    $('.vote-down-off').hide()
    – TGrif
    Mar 21, 2018 at 19:51
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    So how can I, as a user, rapidly glance at a question and infer how the community sees it? I need to read the whole thread? I feel like there is a better system to display that information, without forcing everyone to read or join the discussion... Something like.... Maybe a voting system?
    – Patrice
    Mar 21, 2018 at 22:02
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    Can we hide the upvote button, too, so that bad ideas can't get upvoted, either? Seems like a fair tradeoff.
    – fbueckert
    Mar 21, 2018 at 22:42
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    Let's settle for removing the upvote button, only. The target is zero scored posts. Mar 21, 2018 at 22:46

2 Answers 2

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There's many ways to say any given thing, this includes saying things like That's .. not a very good idea. A lack of up-votes could, certainly, have the same net effect as a bunch of down-votes - the idea never gains enough forward momentum to even get close to implementation.

But would it really be nicer? - I tend to think .. no. Giving people a means to actively disagree with something without requiring them to type words into text boxes keeps words from being angrily typed into text boxes. I think you can see where I'm going here, it would actually be worse by orders of magnitude.

However:

  • I wilt a little inside when someone is asking for support and gets down-voted into oblivion because they didn't know what they should have searched for.

  • I get really irritated when people that are trying to genuinely be helpful by reporting bugs get dumped on for similar reasons. Especially when bug reports get closed erroneously before engineers get a chance to see them.

I think feature requests, or ideas that are more than trivially transformative to the way that the site works are always going to need a yay or nay mechanism. That's the biggest reason why there's no concept of negative reputation on meta sites, yet down-votes still exist. Kendra gave a really good explanation of why that is in her answer.

For bugs, we'll eventually need to move to a more robust bug tracking system because relying on just using a tag isn't working, and we need to take a stronger look at what's actually useful as signal from others in the community. For bugs, this basically boils down to "Me too! I can make this happen too, and it's not supposed to happen!" It needs to be on us to handle duplicates / merging / etc.

For support, we'll eventually make the help center a bit more robust, and funnel people that still feel lost to us directly, so we have / take full responsibility for their experience.

So in short, we've probably reached the point where (at least for Stack Overflow) "meta" as we know it just isn't fitting the need on its own. We've got no immediate plans to make any changes, but we know we're going to need to make them, and likely make them this year.

Once we strip the use down to just what upside down Q&A meta is really good at doing (feature requests) and kinda good at doing (discussion of site policies), we can look at how we present the concept of disagreement in the system itself, and make it a bit less like:

enter image description here

Image credit: Deviant Art

However, identifying consensus for any given thing can be quite difficult even with down votes active and visible, so anything we do can't make that worse. A bit complaint about just reading meta is it's difficult to know what discussions actually resulted in policy that's actively enforced on the site.

It is a problem, and we can't ignore that people aren't engaging because feelings are being hurt (or at least the perception that they probably will be can't be discounted). But the path to fixing that really begins with less duct tape, not more :)

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See comments anywhere on the network for good examples of why this is a horrible idea, even just for Meta.

Do you disagree with any of the comments? Feel like they're poor comments? Well, too bad. Can't downvote them. They'll just get upvoted to oblivion, and everyone will assume they're good comments that everyone else likes! This is why the downvote button is important.

Someone's posted a feature request that is horrendous and will ruin the site! It's being upvoted by people who don't understand the ramifications, despite comments and answers that explain as much!

... Too bad. Can't downvote it. Instead, it just looks like everyone loves the idea.

Oh no, someone's posted a horrible question that, while on topic, is of absolutely terrible quality!

... Too bad. Can't downvote it. Instead, it looks like a neutral question, maybe even a decent one if someone pity-upvotes it.

Feedback is now much more confusing to see at a glance. Well, there are 20 upvotes, but we have to scroll to the comment to see how many people disagree or find this post bad.

Overall, this may reduce "bad feelings", but it likely wouldn't. People would still argue and disagree in the comments, all that would be gone is one button and a potential "-" in front of the score. I honestly think this would only make the problem worse, as well as adding another element of pain to it for everyone else.

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    Pity we can't offer bounties here on Meta. Stellar answer +50
    – brasofilo
    Mar 22, 2018 at 0:33
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    I second @brasofilo . Favourited to be used as reference, next time someone claims downvotes do nothing but spread "bad feelings".
    – duplode
    Mar 22, 2018 at 2:09
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    Trivia: UserVoice - the system originally used for much of what meta is used for now - didn't have downvotes. Folks used comments to express their dislike for an idea... So much peace and love
    – Shog9
    Mar 22, 2018 at 22:49
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    "upvoted to oblivion" is a new turn of phrase.
    – jscs
    Mar 22, 2018 at 23:17

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