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I have noticed what I consider to be a rather pernicious effect on meta where by certain groups or individuals seem to vote in groups.

Might it be an idea to anonymise questions and comments - for some period of time (say a week or so) - to stop people simply voting for their friends?

I think this way you would get a much more objective reaction to questions and comments rather than what appears to be people block voting simply based on who has said something rather than what has been said.

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  • 1
    Don't sweat the downvotes here; they can't hurt you. Don't sweat the sudden influx of downvotes on main; there's a script that will roll back serial downvoting.
    – Makoto
    Mar 21, 2018 at 15:19
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    @Makoto - I'm not sweating it - just massively disheartened and disappointed .
    – anon
    Mar 21, 2018 at 15:20
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    That's fair. It may be worth taking a breather. Y'know, walk outside, get some fresh air...that sort of thing. Although I did look at your most recent question and I'm interpreting downvotes there to mean "I don't agree with the premise you're saying here." That's not meant to bully you or anything. You may be a nice person, but the community's not exactly thrilled with that question. The same is likely true of this question; you may be a nice person but making posts anonymous is actually tougher than you may realize.
    – Makoto
    Mar 21, 2018 at 15:21
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    @TylerH And none of Fraser's answers have been edited since yesterday, so we know that that's not the case.
    – Servy
    Mar 21, 2018 at 15:28
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    Hey, if it's any consolation, I personally don't like using downvotes on "discussion" questions as a proxy of "I don't agree". Now feature requests, I downvote the ones I don't like. Now, this question reads like a feature request, so that's probably where all the I don't agree downvotes are coming from.
    – ryanyuyu
    Mar 21, 2018 at 15:28
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    What would even be the point of a voting ring on Meta?
    – BSMP
    Mar 21, 2018 at 15:38
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    Just a suggestion, if you want the discussion to be "anonymity, good or bad"? Don't include a rant in your question, because at this point, meta will focus on that part and dismiss you as "just another rant", regardless of the value of your points.
    – Patrice
    Mar 21, 2018 at 15:39
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    "So anonymising - a good or bad idea?" -- I sense non-anonimity isn't the main reason behind unreasoned/hasty/drive-by/mob voting on Meta. Also, not speaking entirely with my own voice feels like a high price to pay to prevent occasional retaliation of the sort you describe.
    – duplode
    Mar 21, 2018 at 15:39
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    Rather than just assuming your idea could only possibly have been downvoted because your not "in the in group", you should consider if people just didn't think it was a good question/proposal, and voted for that reason. Making this assumption allows you to look for ways of improving your question, potentially improving its score and just making a more useful question. Not only is that assumption more likely, but the results of making that assumption are more productive.
    – Servy
    Mar 21, 2018 at 15:49
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    'stop people simply voting for their friends'... friends? I didn't know that SO users had actual friends, rather than just some enemies who can be tolerated for now. Mar 21, 2018 at 15:49
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    @Fraser Feel free to replace "possibly" with "probably" in my earlier comment. You should still assume that people were voting based on their opinion of the usefulness of the post. It's both more likely, and more productive. This is especially true given that your reasons for thinking that people were voting because you're not in an "in group" rather than on post quality is only that your post has downvotes, which just isn't a particularly compelling reason to make such an assumption, especially when compared to all of the comments explaining why they think the post isn't useful.
    – Servy
    Mar 21, 2018 at 15:58
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    @Fraser you're really reading too much in all of the comments and votes. Oh, and we're not a forum nor a forum for ideas. please don't upvote this comment, it isn't that good. It is only causing more problems.
    – rene
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:27
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    Not to put a finer point on it, but we have no idea who the heck you are. You never visited meta before and "fraser" is obfuscated beyond reasonable recognition. An anonymous post is going to get voted on the exact same way. This post is already anonymous. Mar 21, 2018 at 16:31
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    We have been here too long. That is probably true.
    – rene
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:33
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    I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it is clear that participation is a closed shop - would prefer to delete/"rage quit" .
    – anon
    Mar 30, 2018 at 12:44

3 Answers 3

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I have noticed what I consider to be a rather pernicious effect on meta where by certain groups or individuals seem to vote in groups.

I'm not sure how you could have noticed that, since voting is anonymous. Unless you are secretly an employee (or hacker), then you are making some big assumptions here.

Might it be an idea to anonymise questions and comments - for some period of time (say a week or so) - to stop people simply voting for their friends?

If this were really happening, then a week of anonymity is not likely to make a difference; someone would just tell their friends "hey, this anonymous post is mine, let's upvote it", or they would wait to upvote or downvote a specific person's posts a week after posting, once it is no longer anonymous.

There are enough people visiting and voting on Meta that any groups of friends who vote for or against certain people (if that happens) would not make much of a splash, even if it did happen. And if you do have a suspicion of voting rings like that, please flag it for a moderator to inspect and send up the chain. While votes on Meta are a little different, voting rings here are still a problem that should be dealt with.

Anonymizing content would also be hard to do given the structure of the site. As has been mentioned in the comments (and Makoto's answer), you'd have to hide posts from users' profile pages, anonymize posts and answers, and anonymize comments. I just don't see it providing any sort of actual benefit. Certainly not compared to the cost of implementation.

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  • I suppose what I mean is simply make the poster say "OP" and each commenter/answerer "user1", "user2", etc for some period of time so that the discussion is simply based on what is said rather than who has said it. The benefit would be that it would make things more objective. It would simply be a case of not displaying the username/picture.
    – anon
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:02
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    @Fraser And I've said that there is no evidence that things aren't already objective without anonymization. You would need to provide your evidence for votes being cast based on voting rings or based on who the post author is. Simply saying "it seems like X is happening" without providing any evidence is not sufficient to implement an expensive anti-pattern into the Meta codebase that there isn't really a mandate for anyway.
    – TylerH
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:06
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    To give an example. My first post on meta - the first comment back was some "in joke" about another user setting the rules. That user then commented and the comment suddenly has lots of votes. Sure it might be simply a coincidence...but it doesn't look or feel that way from the other side. What it looks like is a small number of users voting for each other based on who they are - not what they have said
    – anon
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:11
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    @Fraser But that comment was exactly the kind of humor I love, specially here on meta where things are a bit more lax then on main. That alone makes it worth having an upvote.
    – rene
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:17
  • @rene - the joke made no sense to anyone not in the clique...it seems more like a few users just pilling in and voting for each other.
    – anon
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:18
  • You have a different sense of humor. And stop this clique think, it leads nowhere. I'm not like that
    – rene
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:19
  • @rene - rather my point about my first post (re different sense of humor) - sorry I'll call a spade a spade.
    – anon
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:20
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    @Fraser, the "joke" had a link that would have made it self-explanatory to anyone who didn't know about that post. There is no clique. You just needed to follow a link, if you wanted. If there was an "in" group, I wouldn't have needed to put the link there. The ones in the know would have known.
    – yivi
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:20
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    @Fraser For your benefit, take some time to read through the Many Memes of Meta. That might help you feel more like part of the "in crowd" such as there is one.
    – TylerH
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:21
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    I didn't know about the joke beforehand, but the link was able to explain it perfectly well to me. Mar 21, 2018 at 16:21
  • @TylerH - you know after today I think I'll just leave you to it - my original motivation was simply to point out some ambiguous text - I have absolutely no intention to contribute where my contributions appear to be wholly unwelcome. The sad thing is - if certain people had posted the exact same question I feel that it simply wouldn't have been downvoted in quite the same way. Perhaps that is totally wrong and misplaced but it is how it looks/feels from this users perspective. Maybe that isn't an issue either - but it is certainly enough to put me off trying to contribute further.
    – anon
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:41
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    @Fraser FWIW I would have downvoted the question regardless of who posted it, even if it was my mom. I imagine everyone else will say the same. I'm sorry to hear that you are discouraged when your suggestions are disagreed with, but rest assured the disagreement is with your suggestions, not you. I have suggested things before on Meta that got downvoted. I've also suggested things that have ~200 upvotes. If I had quit after my first suggestion got downvoted I'd have never made that 200-upvote suggestion.
    – TylerH
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:54
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    @Fraser dunno if you see me as part of the clique or not, but if you do:I am willing to post your next meta question on your behalf. Just to see how it's received. I am curious as to what the results would be, but I think you may be disappointed
    – Patrice
    Mar 21, 2018 at 22:06
  • That's a really good thought, @Patrice. You'd probably have to do a little rewriting, but it would be a neat experiment.
    – jscs
    Mar 22, 2018 at 1:10
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    @JoshCaswell or just let Jon Skeet post a feature request on "Downvoter must leave comment" and see the result...
    – Andrew T.
    Mar 22, 2018 at 6:06
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This would be difficult to implement due to the way that posts on the network function.

By default:

  • All posts are associated with an account.
  • Anonymous/unregistered posting is not permitted anywhere.
  • Meta sites require a modicum of main site participation to post.
  • In certain cases, it's permissible to disassociate questions or answers from your account.

That participation piece is likely the main technical obstacle. Because you need to be coming from an account that has at least 5 reputation, the system would need to know that much before letting you in to Meta. By virtue of the system knowing your reputation, you are now no longer completely anonymous.

The other thing to this feature request is that it's not clear that it'd solve the immediate issue. You're no doubt going to get users who vote one way or another just because it's someone they know of or don't like, but the vast majority of votes will be coming from people who simply don't agree or don't feel that the feature request is worth the effort. That's not an attack on you or a discredit to you, but it is a discredit to the idea.

To this point:

I really want to join in and help out - not simply be dismissed because I'm not in the "in group" - and certainly not to get voted down on entirely unrelated questions simply for having the audacity to voice an opinion.

Serial downvoting gets rolled back, so if it gets seriously bad, then know that there's a process to fix that. Additionally, you're more than entitled to your opinion here, just like everyone else is. You simply see their opinion of your feature requests manifest by the way they vote on them in Meta.

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  • Again what I mean is simply make the poster say "OP" and each commenter/answerer "user1", "user2", etc for some period of time so that the discussion is simply based on what is said rather than who has said it. The benefit would be that it would make things more objective. It would simply be a case of not displaying the username/picture - not forcing some kind of anonymous account.
    – anon
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:04
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    @Fraser: Thing is, I could just go into SEDE and deanonymize the user. It would be trivial to craft an API call and write a browser extension to provide that functionality. I mean...I kind of get the motivation but I don't really see the benefits to it either. There's no real indication (outside of anecdotal) that there is a correlation between objectiveness and the person posting it. By and large I've observed neutral voting. Do you have hard evidence to prove otherwise?
    – Makoto
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:07
  • the way votes are cast it would be impossible to provide hard evidence - in the same way you have absolutely no hard evidence of neutral voting. I am simply saying how it appears to me, how I have observed it, as a user.
    – anon
    Mar 21, 2018 at 16:16
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There's no coalition.

We know each other, we have a memory of previous contacts with each other. I'd also hazard lots of us have already have your ideas about people targeting others, voting circles, popularity (and in-popularity) voting, and we've grown over it.

Yet I think you get this wrong. We don't vote for our "friends". We're not "friends". Or at least, not in the sense that is usually meant by friend. We vote for useful content.

What seems to confuse you, is that some people are brighter, wiser and generally more insightful than others. It's quite possible that a large proportion of my comment upvotes are on a small subset of long time meta users. That's not because they're my friends, I've never met them, I've never discussed directly with them.

It just so happens that they have a high accuracy in a lot of things Stack Overflow. So while I'm sympathetic to your perception, please reconsider.

There's no coalition.

As for anonymity in posts, I don't have any hard opinion on it. Maybe it'd change voting, in one way or another. Maybe we would downvote even more. On the other hand, we also learn people's style. There are some posters on meta I can recognize just by the body of their posts.

I'm not really aware of the technical difficulty of doing that, but it seems it's not a low hanging fruit. I think it's easier to realise that

There is no coalition.

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  • I meant the crowd who all refer to each other in comments and who are always the first to comment, and seem at least to vote for one another and dismiss others ideas quite rudely with their brand of "humour"
    – anon
    Mar 30, 2018 at 12:50

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