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It is becoming increasingly difficult to ask legitimate programming questions on Stack Overflow. I've seen:

  1. Users downvote questions into oblivion before OP can act on their comments. By the time a question reaches a ranking of -5 it is impossible to get enough traffic to dig your way back up.
  2. Users downvote questions without providing any explanation. This happens a lot. Sometimes people simply misunderstand the question. Other times they don't like what is being asked ("Why would you need this? Do X instead"). Maybe OP has legitimate reasons for going in a certain direction but before they can explain they are downvoted into oblivion.

What I'm asking is, what can we do to place more value on recovering problematic questions than closing/deleting them?

Stack Overflow places pressure on the person posting a question to do so (deleting too many questions prevents one from posting new questions altogether) but it is an unrealistic expectation because of the above problems (no way to recover once you've been downvoted too many times) and because there is insufficient pressure on the voters to take the time to understand the question before voting. Further, if questions are improved the users who downvoted it do not get notified to revisit their vote.

The crux of the problem I am trying to highlight is that it is extremely difficult for questions with a negative rank to regain votes even if they are edited to perfection. Search engines simply stop directing traffic to them.

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    Except your questions are now at a net "0" so you are receiving upvotes.
    – Paulie_D
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 7:47
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    ..and if you have legitimate explanations for going in a certain direction include them in the question from the start-
    – Paulie_D
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 7:50
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    That's what you think but you don't know that. I don't see you complaining about upvotes with no explanations.
    – Paulie_D
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 7:51
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    2 negative votes is not oblivion...a little less hyperbole would go a long way.
    – Paulie_D
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 7:53
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    Far too often people don't bother editing their question into a better shape, I'm not gonna wait around on the off-chance that the OP does edit, I vote as the question is when I view it. Which is why you should take extra care to post your question in the best shape when you submit it
    – Epodax
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 8:09
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    It's news to me that search engines stop directing traffic to negatively voted questions, but if they are, that's great and should not be changed under any circumstances! Closed questions polluting the Google index has been pissing me off for a long time. Encouraging improving questions (and giving them a real chance to recuperate) is a separate issue and would be a good thing but so far we haven't managed to come up with any ideas that look really good and workable.
    – Pekka
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 8:12
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    I always thought closing and deleting problematic questions was our core business. Not doing that is left to the competition (quora, reddit, Yahoo! Answers)
    – rene
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 8:16
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    To me, your questions seem great. You must've just hit an angry crowd. :)
    – erikvimz
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 8:52
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    The "ThreadPoolExecutor" seems more like a work order than a question, IMO.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 8:54
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    @yivi It's a tough question. If I had any code to provide up-front I would have. I will likely post sub-questions that build up individual components of the solution then link to them from the original question. I always post the top-level question first in case someone knows of an existing solution (e.g. library or existing stackoverflow post).
    – Gili
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 8:58
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    Looking for "existing solutions" makes it look even more like a work order and even less fitting for SO.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 8:59
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    TBH, I was not over-impressed by the 'timing' one either. It may be possible to specify nanosecond precision but, in a software context, nanosecond accuracy is unattainable except with dedicated, embedded controllers. I dodn't downvote it, but I didn't feel any pressing desire to upvote it either:( Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 12:28
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    @user202729 Because they wanted to remove all reference to the questions, which makes it all the more clear that they're not looking for help improving those questions. They apparently didn't like getting feedback on how the questions were problematic, so they removed them because they got feedback on them, when they didn't want it.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 14:17
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    @Gili I find it rather telling that you consider people explaining to you why your questions are problematic and how you can fix them "abuse". That you aren't interested in listening to that feedback or fixing your posts is exactly why your posts doing recover when they get downvoted/closed. It's because you don't fix them, not because questions that get fixed and can't recover.
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 14:32
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    You raised an issue and linked to questions supporting your case. People disagreed with the issue described, and disagreed that the linked questions supported your case. That's a far cry from "dishing abuse". Do not take it personally, please, it doesn't help anyone.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 14:49

4 Answers 4

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What can we do to place more value on recovering problematic questions than closing/deleting them?

Honestly, people need to take more time to describe their problem and make sure that it's appropriate for the site from the start. I don't think it's fair to dump responsibility on voters to update their votes later, or on the community to re-review old questions. The question should have been good from the beginning.

The problem is this: so few people actually try to improve their question, I'm starting to give up on lower quality posts. For the longest time, I've been trying to spoon feed advice to newer users to help them improve their posts with the hope that eventually, they'll learn and begin to improve. I try going back over, in the hopes that in the meantime they've corrected their question. What I seeinstead:

  • There's either no response from the OP, or they begin diving into "just give me the code so I can leave" territory.

  • They make a very minor edit that addresses maybe one of the problems, but still leaves their question with glaring problems like still being overly broad or vague.

  • Maybe one in every 20 times, someone will actually improve their post to the point where a previous downvote can justifiably be removed, or even reversed to an upvote.

At this point, it's hard to justify to myself to go back over old posts, or continue to give the same effort that I previously had when I know that my efforts will almost surely be wasted.

What's the solution? Just make sure the post is good from the start!

That's sounds like a bad solution since "good" is subjective, but really, it's the best solution. When we have so many new questions every minute, there's only so much time we can devote to older questions. If the person had just posted a good question from the start, they could have had their answer in minutes, and everyone could have moved on.

That may sound unfair since there's no way to know for sure how a question sounds to someone else, or if you've supplied enough information for someone to he able to help you. At this point though, I can ask a good question with almost a 100% success rate, so it's not unobtainable, as long as you keep some things in mind:

  • You must have tried solving this yourself first. Show your work! Lay out your debugging efforts so we don't have to play a game of 20 Questions in the comments to flesh out what's already been tried. That wastes the community's time and takes people away from askers who are willing to put effort in.

  • You must have a clear question. If you can't formulate a clear question, you haven't dug for long enough. When someone dumps a "I don't know what's wrong, help!" question without indicating any effort that they've gone through, it's becoming harder and harder for me to believe that if they didn't put in any effort before, suddenly they will as soon as they get some help.

  • You should "baby sit" your question for the first ~5 minutes after posting; the critical window. If it's important enough to you that you're asking for help, it's important enough for you to be responsive in the comments when unforeseen issues pop up. If you get a rush of enthusiastic helpers trying to help you, but you ignore them (even if it's just because you aren't paying attention), that's on you. The help was there, you just passed it up. Of course, this doesn't apply when you don't get any comments at all, but usually in those cases the question has deep flaws that can't easily be corrected, and a new visit to the site tour would be beneficial.

In short, prove to the community, from the start, that your question is worth their time investment. There are far too many questions to try and help everybody. If I peek at a question and it's clear that they have put in next to no effort, I may just pass, since there's likely another question somewhere else at the same time that I could be working on.

I'll admit, this doesn't actually address the main question, but I think this may be an XY Problem. We shouldn't even need to go over old posts, so there doesn't need be a process to do so. The problem is that problematic posts are occurring at all.


Note, I'm using "you" here generally; not specifically referring to Gili. It's simpler than writing "then asker of bad questions" everywhere.

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To me, most of those "downvote to oblivion" could be prevented if a poster would take time to re-read his question in a different mindset than his own before posting. I usually ask if a question is vague but there are also questions with only code but no actual question. Or with described problem but no code. Or just posting something sheningans taking our time to decipher what the problem actually is.

Everyone that is contributing on Stackoverflow.com is doing that with their spare time (well... theoretically seen. I did answer some questions during my work hours). I tend to ask for some clarification or details first if there is a question that is not so clear. If there is a "code-for-me-pl0x" question, I vote a close flag it and/or continue with checking other questions.

I have taken time to check your two linked questions:

How to divide one Duration by another?

This one has 3 up- and 3 downvotes. I admit that I do not comprehend the downvote after checking your edit history. Seems a fine question although the setup could be explained a bit better.

Non-blocking rate-limited ThreadPoolExecutor

This is just a too broad question. It can be solved in many ways. A better approach is to do some research yourself, implement it or go to Software Engineering SE instead.

Then I took time to check your question history. You have posted 458 questions, so could not check 'm all. But most of those are pretty decent or good. So you do know how to write a decent question.

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  • Thank you for taking the time to review my questions and provide constructive feedback.
    – Gili
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 8:48
  • I have a question regarding your answer. Having read meta.stackoverflow.com/a/268307/14731 I am not clear on the definition of "too broad" in the context of Stackoverflow. Don't all programming questions have many possible answers? It's not like I'm asking about the general merits of AspectJ. I am asking for a specific programming solution (any will do) that meets a specific set of requirements.
    – Gili
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 8:52
  • Can you make explicit how this answers what can we do to place more value on recovering problematic questions than closing/deleting them? and The crux of the problem I am trying to highlight is that it is extremely difficult for questions with a negative rank to regain votes even if they are edited to perfection. Search engines simply stop directing traffic to them.. Doesn't your answer and the current voting on those two questions simply prove the whole premises of the question to be invalid?
    – rene
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 8:53
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    @rene "Doesn't your answer and the current voting on those two questions simply prove the whole premises of the question to be invalid?" --> yes. It is ironic right 😀?
    – KarelG
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 8:59
  • @rene These questions did not reach a rank of -5 or lower, so I fail to see how this invalidates the premise of the question.
    – Gili
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 8:59
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    @Gili So the questions you used as an example are not meant to illustrate the perceived issue, it is just a way for you to attract more eyes on your own questions. Mission %&&%$# accomplished. Can you share some other examples then that are -5 or lower and have value and are closed or deleted by me or others?
    – rene
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 9:07
  • @rene I can't figure out how to search SO for questions with a rank less than -5. Can you? In the meantime, riddle me this. Why does stackoverflow.com/questions/49216922/… have 6 negative votes?
    – Gili
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 9:11
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    @Gili because 6 people thought it wasn't a useful question, or that it wasn't well researched, or that it was unclear. One of them might have lost their keys.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 9:14
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    @Gili yes I can: stackoverflow.com/search?q=score%3A..-5+is%3Aq+closed%3Ayes
    – rene
    Commented Mar 12, 2018 at 9:19
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Although I don't think there is anything wrong with the above questions

The fact that you don't see anything wrong with them is precisely why it's important for other users to provide the feedback to you that they're problematic, by downvoting/closing them. If they just ignored the problems with those posts you wouldn't have been informed that your posts were problematic. Because of them, you were.

Users downvote my question into oblivion before I can act on their comments.

Indeed, it's important for everyone to have feedback on the quality of those posts. Now other readers won't have to spend a bunch of time reading your posts to realize they're problematic, as they've gotten a signal from other users.

By the time a question reaches a ranking of -5 it is impossible to get enough traffic to dig your way back up.

It happens a lot. When people really do improve their posts and fix the problems that they had they tend to do pretty well. You haven't really demonstrated that posts that really do fix their problems consistently don't recover.

Users downvote my question without providing any explanation.

But you were just saying above that you did get comments saying how your posts could be improved, so apparently that isn't true. Not that they're obligated to anyway. There are lots of resources out there on how to ask good questions; they don't need to be repeated on every bad question.

Additionally, you've have now asked over 450 questions. I think readers of your questions can reasonably expect you to already be familiar with how to ask good questions. That you haven't figured it out by now also means you're pretty clearly not interested in asking good questions. Anyone who spent time trying to help you fix your posts would be wasting their time. If you were going to learn how to ask questions well, you'd have done it by now.

Sometimes people simply misunderstand the question.

If your question is so unclear that the readers aren't understanding it them your post merits downvotes. It is your responsibility to ensure that the question is clear and will be understood.

Other times they don't like what I'm asking

Again, if they don't think that the question or its answer would be useful we want them to downvote it. It is also your responsibility to ensure that the question is a useful question.

what can we do to place more value on recovering problematic questions than closing/deleting them?

We want bad questions to be closed as soon as possible. It prevents low quality answers from being posted until the question author has an opportunity to improve them.

Questions aren't deleted quickly. The author is typically given several days at a minimum, usually even longer, to improve their question. It is only after they've clearly indicated that they're not interested in improving their posts that they get deleted.

Search engines simply stop directing traffic to them.

This one just isn't true. Search engines do direct people to lower scored questions. They aren't shown on the homepage, but they're still indexed and visible from the questions lists.

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The crux of the problem I am trying to highlight is that it is extremely difficult for questions with a negative rank to regain votes even if they are edited to perfection.

This is a good thing. Yes, really.

It is important to recognize that asking a bad question takes up other people's time. Getting into a comment thread asking where we tell people what's wrong with their question takes up people's time.

That a bad question might get turned into a not-bad question is a perfectly legitimate possibility. However, the time and effort it takes to do that takes time away from experts who want to answer good questions. Those experts who are tied up with bad questions aren't spending time asking questions that start as good questions.

That's not good.

We don't want people to ask bad questions and then edit them into good ones; we want them to ask good ones in the first place. The fact that bad questions that are not quickly edited into good ones cannot reasonably recover is therefore appropriate punishment for asking such a bad question in the first place.

Nobody has a gun to your head, forcing you to ask a bad question. That was your choice. We shouldn't have to take our time to explain why it was a bad question, nor does your re-edited version merit equal consideration to the question from someone who took the time and effort to get it right the first time.

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