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I came across this complaint by Brian Lagunas, the owner of Prism, about his answer to Why GoBackAsync() doesn't fire on OnNavigatedTo() method of previous page?

And it got me to thinking, we can avoid situations like this in the future if we just provide some way to identify a Stack Overflow user as an official representative of a given tag/project. When they say “this is a bug, file on the GitHub issues” that is the official answer for the question.

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    Not knowing whether the user answering is an official representative isn't the problem. The problem is disagreement over whether telling someone they encountered a bug without providing a workaround is an answer or not.
    – BSMP
    Feb 2, 2018 at 16:26
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    What @BSMP said. In the same vein, you don't have to be a representative or owner of a project to assert whether something is definitively a bug, or user error. Anyone familiar enough with Prism can identify the problem as a bug, if it is in fact one.
    – BoltClock
    Feb 2, 2018 at 16:31
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    What they should have done is leave that 'answer' as a comment. Stack Overflow is not a support forum.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Feb 2, 2018 at 16:34
  • @MartijnPieters If that's the case, then why haven't the mods stepped in to re-delete the answer. Additionally, should that even have been deleted via the LQP queue? While low quality, it does attempt to answer the question.
    – Blue
    Feb 2, 2018 at 16:36
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    @FrankerZ: I'm going to say with 99% certainty that this was deleted from a review queue. I'm going to say with 99% certainty that perhaps someone should've flagged it for moderator attention and asked it to be converted to a comment. I'm going to say with absolute certainty that it's very much the answerer's fault for not posting it as a comment in the first place.
    – Makoto
    Feb 2, 2018 at 16:38
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    I'm going to say though, that the part I honestly take umbrage with is that this is used as yet more fuel for "Stack Overflow is hostile" when people don't even have the full story. I encourage you to link Brian Lagunas to this Meta post. I would but I'm on a machine where I can't log in to my Twitter profile, and I guarantee I'll forget about it after work.
    – Makoto
    Feb 2, 2018 at 16:39
  • @Makoto This was deleted via the LQP queue.
    – Blue
    Feb 2, 2018 at 16:41
  • Hmm. I learned something new today. The OP invalidated the delete from review votes on their own.
    – Makoto
    Feb 2, 2018 at 16:42
  • @Makoto He mentioned that in one of his tweets.
    – Blue
    Feb 2, 2018 at 16:43
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    Well now I'm more confused. Why's he fussing? It's been undeleted (and will likely be converted to a comment now that there's eyes on it).
    – Makoto
    Feb 2, 2018 at 16:44
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    @Makoto - The tweet says "...don't care about helping people only points..." so they seem to be under the impression that reviewing and/or deleting posts somehow generates reputation for the user that does it. A lot of people think this for some reason.
    – BSMP
    Feb 2, 2018 at 16:48
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    @BSMP: Here's one I commented on. I'm sure there are more. In fact, you and I are probably thinking of the same elusive question.
    – BoltClock
    Feb 2, 2018 at 16:53
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    @BoltClock, it doesn't say that "it is a bug", but that "they believe it is a bug", and directs the user to report it, for further investigation. It still may be it is not a bug at all, but lack of definition from the asker. As it is IMO it doesn't seem to be a QA "helpful to future readers".
    – yivi
    Feb 2, 2018 at 16:57
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    @PeterHaddad Posts deleted by review can just be undeleted by the author, which is exactly what happened here. If 3 20k users, or a moderator, delete it then the author can't just undelete it.
    – Servy
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:09
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    Folks, I think Makoto gets it...
    – BoltClock
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:29

2 Answers 2

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There's no badge or special mark we could put on someone's account that would fix the multiple problems with the question itself. That we're being used as a primary form of support is fine, but we require that standards of quality be kept.

My head hurts after trying to read that question several times. It doesn't contain a verifiable example, it's painful to read, it lacks punctuation, formatting and capitalization and apparently it takes the author of the project to even understand what's going on. The fact that his answer was vague and couldn't really be fleshed out much speaks to the fact that the question stinks.

Even though you really want to support everyone that asks something on the site, we have higher standards than a forum or a slack channel. If you're not willing to even help your users by editing -- we can't help you provide them with better support. If after hitting the privilege to edit you don't recognize that question as something in dire need of help then .. well .. we might not be the best place for you to provide folks with help.

But wait, there is a flip (more human) side to it. We need to own it.

His complaint is technically correct. Stack overflow was supposed to be feature complete (or nearly feature complete) back in 2008 when it launched (hilarity ensues). When quality began taking a nose dive after the world (and not just the rather skilled programmers who were also decent writers that followed Jeff and Joel) poured in, a whole lot of stuff got bolted on. This resulted in a really disjointed, and to the uninitiated, unintuitive product especially from the use case of the new user.

That's fair feedback and we should listen to it. I have hopes that all the testing we've been doing on the ask question page is going to bear fruit, and I really look forward to making review something that appears to be part of the original plan instead of something we later bolted on after some resources free up once we ship channels. I hate to see people have these experiences and I wish that they didn't.

But they're still the minority. This graph fresh from the 25k+ tools:

enter image description here

Look at upvotes and down votes. Way more contributions are appreciated and rewarded than questioned or ultimately removed. I could post more numbers around that, but despite the fact that you occasionally hear about plane crashes, flying is still the safest way to go.

Sure, it's regrettable and a bunch of stuff could have happened, starting with the owner of the project using their edit privileges :) If you're going to use SO for support, you have to know when to jump in and salvage a gem in the rough, so to speak. I'm not pointing fingers here, this could have been handled better overall, but I do take issue with presenting this as a typical case where everyone else seems to be to blame.

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  • When did the chimp turn into a gorilla? (In reference to the copious use of bold italics.)
    – BoltClock
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:23
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    @BoltClock It's those German sausages. You have a few of those and a beer, and everything starts looking bold and italicized. Then you start making bad puns. They're the wurst.
    – Tim Post
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:31
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    Thank you for the well thought out and logical response. After reading many of the other well thought-out comments throughout this topic, it's apparent that I really don't know how to properly use SO. There's much more to it than just answer a question and move on. I don't use SO to provide support, I have a Slack Channel for that, but I do occasionally peek in to see if there are any easy questions I can answer. Given the time required to properly learn and adhere to the rules of SO, this is not a forum that I should contribute to. I will leave it up to other more experienced SO users.
    – user5420778
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:36
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    We put together some guidelines for this a while ago, @Brian. Here's the thing: Stack Overflow works best for disseminating information - it's great for capturing those problems that come up repeatedly so that you don't have to keep answering them via email / irc / slack / whatever. It's absolutely terrible for one-on-one conversations where you're trying to walk someone through a process. Bugs are sort of weird: there are tons of helpful threads on SO where folks provide work-arounds for buggy behavior, but no one wants to use SO for a bugs DB
    – Shog9
    Feb 2, 2018 at 18:05
  • @Shog9: I honestly don't think many people think of SO as a bug tracker and try to use it in that fashion. Many questions whose answer is "this is a bug" were either asked with the suspicion that something might be a bug, but without certainty, hence the question; or asked without any suspicion at all, and instead completely based on the assumption that the problem was caused by user error. Both are "I got this error, why?"-type questions - they won't presume something is a bug until they get a definitive answer saying so. I rarely ever see bug reports in the form of questions to begin with.
    – BoltClock
    Feb 3, 2018 at 4:00
  • Quite right, @BoltClock - and such questions can be plenty useful when they attract workarounds (as I mentioned before) or at very least link to a bug tracker so that others can avoid wasting time thinking it's their fault and watch for a fix (though these tend to age poorly). What frustrates me when searching are questions that contain neither: then we're back to the old DenverCoder9 problem. It's a bug, someone maybe even acknowledged it, but... I'm still hitting it; was there a fix and regression, or has it just been sitting there, forgotten?
    – Shog9
    Feb 3, 2018 at 4:07
  • @Shog9: Well, I'd be happy with just an acknowledgement - at least I know I'm not going crazy. I've come to terms with the fact that not every bug has a workaround, or one that doesn't involve completely rethinking or restructuring what I'm doing in a way that would make the question "too broad" should all the steps be spelled out... so I'm not going to call a Q&A not useful just because it wasn't what I wanted to hear. But I know there are people who see things differently...
    – BoltClock
    Feb 3, 2018 at 4:13
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    I don't know there's an easy/universal solution here, @boltclock; this is something that the folks on AskUbuntu have been dealing with for years too: they close questions that must result in a bug report (with detailed instructions on how to file one) link to existing reports when possible, and provide workarounds when those exist... But it's not always consistent, and certainly doesn't always produce a useful outcome.
    – Shog9
    Feb 3, 2018 at 4:24
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    Aaargghhhh! 'They're the wurst.' how did Tim get in? I've been deliberately hiding his keys for years;( Feb 5, 2018 at 6:35
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If it were anyone else doing this, we wouldn't have this Meta post.

The issue here is that the user was using Stack Overflow as a support platform, which isn't something we're super thrilled about. It's very much the case that companies do support their users here, such as Pivotal with Spring, but they do so in a way that fits with our Q&A model.

The user in question decided to post a comment as an answer, plain and simple. Instead of commenting, which they had sufficient rep to do, they decided to post an answer which basically read, "this should work, go here if it doesn't". No matter how you want to interpret that, it's just a comment.

If it were anyone else doing this, we wouldn't be talking about it.

If they want to leave because they misunderstood how they should go about supporting their customers on Stack Overflow, I would happily hold the door open for them. It's fine to support your users here. It's not fine to treat this as a forum.

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    This is the exact issue with SO. This type of mentality. I don't use SO as a support forum. This tag was created by the community, not me. I do occasionally see what kind of problems people are running into. If it's an easy question with an obvious answer I'll answer it. Just like every single tag on SO. This is how SO works. There is a tag, if you know the tech, you provide answers (aka SUPPORT). Actually, based on your own rules, this should be a comment. This does not answer the question. Not even close. Its you complaining that SO is being used as a support forum.
    – user5420778
    Feb 2, 2018 at 16:59
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    Can you feel the hostility in this topic? I can, and this is the issue. Not where a comment or answer should be placed. It how moderators treat people. Instead discussing this with a dialog, you welcome me to leave to never return. A true community would discuss an encourage others to participate. This is the problem. This attitude. It reinforces everything I am complaining about.
    – user5420778
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:02
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    Two things here: I'm primarily addressing the remarks you left on Twitter, which have indeed ruffled me. I don't appreciate hearing that the community is "uninviting" when we've really not gone out of our way to single you out. The reviewers did their duty in my mind when they said your answer was more like a comment. Second, I do make a direct remark to the merit of the feature request, in that we see this scenario play out all the time. If it were anyone else doing this, we would not give them quite as much of our time.
    – Makoto
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:02
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    Additionally, you were the one that said "I'm done with SO". My gut response was, "Bye, Felicia." You can take that as hostile if you like - it might even come across as very hostile - but you were the one that decided to say that you were leaving. I was only reacting to that.
    – Makoto
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:04
  • It shouldn't matter who it is. It's a world wide community with a diverse background. Just google for "Why I left Stack Overflow", or "Issues with SO", you'll see a common theme about how hostile and uninviting it has become.
    – user5420778
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:04
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    @BrianLagunas The irony of you claiming that you're not allowed to discuss the issue, in a post dedicated to discussing the issue, in which you're being given all of the opportunity in the world to say whatever you want about the issue, is pretty thick. You're more than welcome to complain about the fact that others disagree with the opinions that you've expressed, but given that you have all the opportunity in the world to discuss them, you can't claim you're not allowed to discuss it while you are discussing it.
    – Servy
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:05
  • And that's fine. I am done with SO. I will continue to let the wider community answer any Prism tagged questions. They can "support" it.
    – user5420778
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:06
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    @BrianLagunas And you'll also see how it is the resource for finding answers to programming questions. There's a reason for that, and that reason is the strict quality standards. Yes, lots of people (including, apparently, you) have a problem with a site having strict quality standards. That's okay, but don't expect the site to remove all of its quality standards just because you would rather have lower quality content. That's just not acceptable to this community. That it makes the site harder to use for some people is an unfortunate consequence.
    – Servy
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:08
  • @Servy fair point. Though, I can argue the real discussion isn't happening in this thread, but the one above it in the OP.
    – user5420778
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:08
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    @PeterHaddad No, just no. That is NOT the correct way to handle that situation. What would be proper is to ask for clarification from the poster to generate a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example, and offer them a link to the github if they would like to file a bug report.
    – Blue
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:23
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    @FrankerZ (in addition to your comment) and if the bug has been fixed, please come back to answer the question about the status of the issue and an example on how to use the feature now, so future visitors with the same issue (and apparently an older version of the software) know that they need an update and can check if they use the feature correctly.
    – Tom
    Feb 2, 2018 at 17:44
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    @BrianLagunas you have chosen to use SO as a tool to support your project so you're expected to learn how your tool works. From this POV your complaint feels a bit like, "oh this compiler is so cruel, it threatens me with strange message and doesn't let me proceed with build until I fix some boring syntax error". In case of discussed answer the "compiler message" was the presence of undelete link shown to you, system required to click it in order to fix the error and proceed. Instead of complaining you could wonder why the system is desined this way but that would be a different discussion Feb 2, 2018 at 20:22

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