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I'm relatively new to answering questions on SO (been answering PHP questions on another forum for years), and I was noticing a pretty consistent trend in the PHP-tagged questions on here. Almost every one of them is down-voted, even when the question is clear. It also seems like people are eager to try to close questions as duplicates. A few of the dupe-flags have just been pretty broad. For example, someone asks, "I have a specific question about XYZ" and their question gets immediately flagged as a duplicate of "Broad answers about XYZ", even if the "Broad answers..." doesn't really address the specific question.

Granted, not all of the questions are mind-blowing, trailblazing questions that nobody has ever asked before, but the general sentiment seems to be very hostile towards those who ask questions. The down-votes basically say, "Your question is stupid," and the quick-to-flag-as-dupe behavior is sort of like calling a 1-800 number and being pushed through an automated system tries to answer common questions but frustrates the daylights out of people whose question has to reach a human for a good answer.

In the long run, it ends up being a negative, sticky joke on the site's reputation (Person 1: "I should go ask this on StackOverflow..." Person 2: "You mean DupeOverflow?") that can be a killing disease.

I did a query on data on the past 2 weeks of PHP questions and there's a nearly-consistent 2:1 ratio between downvotes to upvotes.

I did read this question from a year ago: Why is the quality of PHP questions, on Stack Overflow, in decline?

...and it just seems like a legitimate observation that got written off. A year later, the problem continues and it makes me wonder if this is just going to be the norm and I should just get used to being the person that still tries to answer questions flagged as dupes. Should I try to upvote "okay" questions to counter the more hostile trends?

Is it just that people don't want to help others fix syntax questions?

What would the ideal PHP tag zone look like if you (whomever is reading this) had your way?

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    "Is it just that people don't want to help others fix syntax questions?" Certainly not.
    – yivi
    Jan 16, 2018 at 16:59
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    i mean... a dupe is a dupe. If it's a dupe, closing it as such is good. It doesn't need to be re-answered over and over.
    – Kevin B
    Jan 16, 2018 at 17:01
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    @yivi It seems pretty extreme to me. I see way more than 2 bad questions for every good one.
    – Servy
    Jan 16, 2018 at 17:01
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    "(Person 1: "I should go ask this on StackOverflow..." Person 2: "You mean DupeOverflow?")" Yeah, and that's because those people are doing it wrong. They should be saying, "You should go find an existing answer to this problem on Google" not, "Go ask that question on SO without even doing your research first", then you'll get a response of, "I found the solution in this Stack Overflow question" rather than, "Someone closed my question as a duplicate of a question that has a solution to my problem because I didn't bother to search for it first."
    – Servy
    Jan 16, 2018 at 17:05
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    You've got many misconceptions going on in this question...
    – yivi
    Jan 16, 2018 at 17:05
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    I reject many of your premises.
    – FirstOne
    Jan 16, 2018 at 17:07
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    "Should I try to upvote 'okay' questions to counter the more hostile trends?" You should upvote quality questions that meet the site's standards, are on topic, well researched, clear, will be useful to the programming community at large, etc. You shouldn't upvote question that don't meet those criteria just because other people have correctly identified that the question doesn't meet those criteria. Also note that indicating that a question is not well researched, useful, clear, on topic, etc. is not hostile. It's extremely helpful. You saying that it's hostile, is hostile.
    – Servy
    Jan 16, 2018 at 17:08
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    More here on @Servy's comment..
    – FirstOne
    Jan 16, 2018 at 17:09
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    A downvote most emphatically does not mean "your question is stupid".
    – Ajean
    Jan 16, 2018 at 17:11
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    This... it's like a suspension honeypot for me. I dare not try to make any useful contribution:( Jan 16, 2018 at 17:22
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    I'm not seeing exactly what you claim irt to your stats.
    – rene
    Jan 16, 2018 at 17:38
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    I'm confused on your post - on one hand you link to "quality of PHP questions is low" but you seem to propose to upvote more questions presumably to improve quality of posts that way... Not really sure what you want... Jan 16, 2018 at 17:48
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    @jhilgeman "This particular discussion isn't intended to be one specific question" Yes, and that's part of what makes it a bad question. That you intended it to be a bad question doesn't change that. It makes it worse, in fact.
    – Servy
    Jan 16, 2018 at 18:06
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    @jhilgeman :) you really should not ask for discussion if you only accept the case when everyone agrees with you... There are other sites which don't support disagreement - SO is not one of them. Jan 16, 2018 at 18:16
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    You do not need to delete anything "for the sake of the site". It can take, (and did take, and will take) plenty contrasting opinions. Yours is in the minority, but someone is always in the minority. I tried to address most of the points raised in your "question" in my answer, but didn't get any feedback from you there, so I'm not sure what to think of that.
    – yivi
    Jan 16, 2018 at 18:42

1 Answer 1

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The down-votes basically say, "Your question is stupid,"

No, they do not say that. Although in many times the question does look a bit on the stupid side, the downvote simply means that the voter found that the question "lacked research effort, was unclear, or was not 'useful'".

The perceived hostility is not there. You may not like being downvoted, but it is not an aggression.

I don't like to be downvoted either. But it happens. If we didn't want downvotes, we'd only have an upwards pointing arrow. That wouldn't be too useful in the long term.

and the quick-to-flag-as-dupe behavior is sort of like calling a 1-800 number and being pushed through an automated system tries to answer common questions but frustrates the daylights out of people whose question has to reach a human for a good answer.

"Quick-to-close" is how we try to keep the site useful and relevant. The reason people do come as often as they do to Stack Overflow, is because of the tight focus on topicality and quality control.

And while asking a dupe is not necessarily a bad thing, many dupes can be a bit too much. When you paste the title of the question in Google and find the target of the dupe in 2''... is rather depressing.

I did a query on data on the past 2 weeks of PHP questions and there's a nearly-consistent 2:1 ratio between downvotes to upvotes.

This is a matter of opinion, but I think that if you browse the site and try to look critically at our content, you'll see there are many more bad questions (poorly researched, stated, with the wrong problem barely described, etc) than good questions. A 2 to 1 ratio doesn't seem extreme at all. In my opinion, it looks too generous.

Is it just that people don't want to help others fix syntax questions?

No, we do not want that. At all. Good questions shouldn't be about fixing syntax errors. IDEs, interpreters, debuggers are for that. And for those questions that come around about syntax errors... we have a close reason in waiting.

Majority of PHP questions downvoted or dupes

And finally, addressing the specific tag part, which is the only thing that differentiate your post from many others complaining about down-votes and closures...

I imagine that this title could apply to almost any tag. Good quality, on-topic questions are in the minority. But if that were not the case, the quality control mechanics of Stack Overflow wouldn't make much sense.

It is true that the case might be more acute for this tag than for some others, but I reckon something similar occurs in other places around the site. Very popular tags for languages with a shallow learning curve can be like that.

Ideally, the only way I'd like to see less down-votes and close votes/flags would be if the quality on the tag went way up. But the quality on the site kinda reflects what you'd find out there. It's not so easy to find great developers on any technology, and in one so forgiving with beginners it can sometimes feel even harder.

For me, the fix, as much as something like this can be fixed, would be going exactly in the opposite direction than what you propose, and be extra vigilant in quality control. Which means: close down more questions, down-vote more posts.

With that, we'd be doing our part in pushing upwards the existing talent pool in the language. And hopefully leaving markers for the developers of tomorrow to learn from, hopefully improving the whole PHP ecosystem in the process.

It can feel like a losing battle, most of the time. But we have to try. Despite the rep PHP has, there are competent developers doing great work with the language and technology. At least I think so.

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    You may not like being downvoted, but it is not an aggression. .... can't we blame facebook for that?
    – rene
    Jan 16, 2018 at 17:18
  • There are no stupid questions... Except on Stack Overflow
    – Davy M
    Jan 16, 2018 at 17:19
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    "downvotes are taken so damn personal..."
    – gnat
    Jan 16, 2018 at 17:40
  • @rene we should certainly try. Jan 16, 2018 at 17:52
  • I think the perception is definitely linked to what rene said about Facebook. I think other sites like FB have created an "attacking" perception that is linked to downvotes. To be clear, I'm not saying that downvotes ARE hostile but rather that they carry that perception. And why shouldn't they be taken personally? There's rarely ever feedback that explains the downvotes, which is behavior encouraged by "When is it justifiable to downvote a question?" that tells people to simply "downvote and move on", leaving askers feeling like their request for help has been rejected without explanation.
    – jhilgeman
    Jan 16, 2018 at 18:58
  • If downvotes were required to have some explanation (a sub-click that explained the downvote as "Lacking sufficient explanation", etc...), it seems like that would at least add a consistent level of feedback for the askers.
    – jhilgeman
    Jan 16, 2018 at 19:01
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    @jhilgeman And now you are entering a whole different discussion, one that we had many, many, many, many times. Read around in meta, you'll find the posts. There even is canonical question for this subject. But try to focus on one issue. You are misinterpreting the use of the discussion tag. Since you want to give you opinion on how the site should work, you should first try to familiarize with its rules and customs.
    – yivi
    Jan 16, 2018 at 19:04
  • @yivi - I'm just responding to the comments being said.
    – jhilgeman
    Jan 16, 2018 at 19:06
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    @jhilgeman what's funny here is that 'unjustified' downvotes feel hostile to the new users. However explaining your downvotes to new users will, more often than not, turn the situation into a hostile one... for the downvoter :(.
    – Patrice
    Jan 16, 2018 at 21:58
  • @Patrice - Why would it be any more hostile to the downvoter than now? It would literally be a second click. Click once on the downvote arrow, then a pop-up comes up to indicate the general category of reasoning, and you click on the appropriate category. The asker simply sees a breakdown of reasons that helps them know how to improve their question. It allows downvoters to "downvote and move on" AND provide valuable aggregate feedback with a simple click.
    – jhilgeman
    Jan 17, 2018 at 16:19
  • @jhilgeman I am not talking about that proposal, which again is a whole different discussion. I am saying that NOW, if a downvoter explains his downvote, he usually gets abused by the downvotee.
    – Patrice
    Jan 17, 2018 at 16:22
  • All the more reason to support that proposal.
    – jhilgeman
    Jan 17, 2018 at 18:47
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    @jhilgeman if you want to support that proposal, please find one of the many variants and add your two bits there, instead of here. Here not only is irrelevant, since the discussion was about something else, but every time you add a comment to my answer I get pinged. Thanks for your understanding! :)
    – yivi
    Jan 17, 2018 at 18:49
  • @jhilgeman actually, not really. Amidst all the abuse I realized another thing (back when I was sill fooli.... optimistic enough to comment on every downvote) that, frankly, the majority of new users do NOT want to improve. They want their answers nao! They got used to visiting stack and getting answers. So THEIR question now should be answered. Call me cynical but I don't think the time to implement this would be worth the very minimal of people it would help. In any case, yivi's point is 100% true too
    – Patrice
    Jan 18, 2018 at 5:24
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    I'm working on it. Perhaps it's just the newer generation of kids feeling entitled or something. Whatever the case, we'll see how it pans out.
    – jhilgeman
    Jan 18, 2018 at 6:17

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