2

When I first started using Stack Overflow in 2009 it was a wonderful place. High-quality questions, many of them answered in great depth by people well-known and regarded in their fields (for example, Jon Skeet).

As the years have gone on, however, questions have dropped in quality. I will leave you to read Hans Passant's great answer as to why, but the fact is that for literally half a decade, more and more low-quality questions have been posted on the site, yet the tools available to ordinary users to review and moderate those questions, have not been kept up to date.

In particular, there are various improvements - many of them quite small - that would make reviewing quicker, easier, and ultimately, take less of reviewers' time. Not only would that be more fair on reviewers, it would potentially lower the bar to entry for reviewing.

Unfortunately, since Stack Overflow is closed-source, its users are unable to add fixes directly. Thankfully, since most of us are developers, and Stack Overflow is a website, we've been able to hack work around these issues with things like Greasemonkey and its various incarnations.

But that in itself is a problem. For example, a search for "review" on Stack Apps brings back 110 results. Now, I don't expect all of those are actually user scripts, but assuming even a quarter are, is it really reasonable to ask someone to install (and debug the interactions between) 25+ scripts just to make reviewing more efficient?

This problem would not exist if Stack Overflow took feedback from those who use the review tools and actually implemented it. But they don't - fixes to the Help and Improvement queue were requested more than two and a half years ago, and promised two and a half years ago, and have not materialised. Nor has there been any communication as to why those improvements are still MIA.

That's a slap in the face to everyone who gives of their own time and effort to attempt to keep Stack Overflow's quality at a decent level.

That's why my most recent posts to Meta have been of a hostile tone. Because we reviewers have literally been asking for years for Stack Overflow to do a bare minimum of decency and implement some of these improvements, and we've consistently been ignored. If you ask nicely, if you plead, for something long enough, and you don't get it, you get upset. I'm upset, and I think I'm justified in being so.

So.

Since Stack Overflow isn't interested in prioritising improving the review queues, and those who use them are, why not allow those users to make those improvements? In other words, allow interested users to have access to the SO source code (obviously with various NDAs and other legalese to keep everything kosher).

Yes, I am aware that what I am suggesting is that the people who care the most about the site and reviews, spend even more time on the site for no compensation. Personally, I would be happy to do that because I care - but I appreciate that others might not be as willing (or happy to allow Stack Overflow to abrogate its responsibilities as it has been doing), hence this discussion.

Review queues are the only facet of Stack Overflow that I now actively participate in. If they don't get fixed - or we aren't allowed to fix them - I will no longer have any reason to use the site.

Is that being butthurt and/or unreasonable? Perhaps. But I feel like if one of the small percentage of users who actually contribute to the site's quality is no longer interested in doing so, and Stack Overflow itself isn't interested in addressing that, then Stack Overflow no longer cares about quality.

And that means it's no better than Experts Exchange. Or, in short, that Stack Overflow has failed entirely at everything it was created for.

Additional reading: Stack Overflow fatigue - has your usage / motivation dropped off? (with a still-relevant answer in this vein from me), On large communities decaying over time, being nice or mean, and Stack Overflow (with another great answer from Hans).

21
  • 4
    Is the real problem the tools or just enough people don't use them the right way? I haven't voted on your question but you don't seem to give a good description of what is lacking in that regard.
    – PeterJ
    Dec 20, 2017 at 12:08
  • 14
    I do feel the general tone is quite passive-aggressive, still. "a slap in the face". "bare minimum of decency", "Stack Overflow has failed entirely at everything it was created for", etc, etc.
    – yivi
    Dec 20, 2017 at 12:10
  • 3
    @PeterJ The tools themselves are lacking. There is certainly another issue regarding robo-reviewing, but that is a separate discussion that is far more difficult to provide a concrete solution to.
    – Ian Kemp
    Dec 20, 2017 at 12:10
  • 14
    @IanKemp: As yivi explained, this question doesn't display good intentions. It reads like a entitled rant. If you really have good intentions, remove the passive-aggressive language.
    – Cerbrus
    Dec 20, 2017 at 12:14
  • 9
    I can't help but think that you overestimate the usefulness of the various review queues (or I underestimate them, I'd love to see some numbers). It's just that given it takes longer to fix a question than to write or answer one, we'll always be fighting an uphill battle until some serious barriers will be erected for question askers. And that will never happen.
    – CodeCaster
    Dec 20, 2017 at 12:31
  • 5
    I sympathise with you, a lot of problems could be fixed by crowdsourcing. But I've never bothered with asking to open-source (part of) SO, because I'm pretty sure it's never going to happen for various reasons.
    – user247702
    Dec 20, 2017 at 12:34
  • 3
    @CodeCaster panic tone and amount of upvotes on this request from SE CM that was created when they noticed decrease in reviews suggest that you may somewhat underestimate the usefulness, yes (and there are some numbers in there since you mentioned you'd love to see)
    – gnat
    Dec 20, 2017 at 13:00
  • 11
    What "agenda" could a moderator with no connection to SO corporate possibly have?
    – Pekka
    Dec 20, 2017 at 13:12
  • 7
    Re the feature request: this is unlikely to ever go anywhere. Opening the code base is probably not possible due to VC capital owning a big part of the company, plus doing it would take up a lot more of their time and resources than may be immediately obvious. Given they're not doing much about our feature requests (for whatever reason) there is no reason to assume they will do this, either. Complaining on Meta also unproductive as far as I can see. Best solution is arguably to disengage emotionally and be happy (and maybe surprised) that the site is still working reasonably in many areas.
    – Pekka
    Dec 20, 2017 at 13:13
  • 2
    @Pekka웃 Re agenda: some people get off on power, it seems. Re feature request: cool, Stack Overflow is dead and staying in its coffin, no point in holding out any hope that the initial vision remains. So long, and thanks for all the fish.
    – Ian Kemp
    Dec 20, 2017 at 13:20
  • 12
    cool, Stack Overflow is dead and staying in its coffin, no point in holding out any hope that the initial vision remains I wouldn't quite put it that way; as said, the site is still working amazingly well and it's still the #1 resource for programming Q&A. But in terms of taking the site forward with bold steps, addressing problems with risky changes, the way it used to be in Atwood days, that might be dead, yeah. At least I'm not seeing anything in that regard and I've been waiting for a while. Too much money & too many livelihoods involved maybe.
    – Pekka
    Dec 20, 2017 at 13:25
  • 10
    ♫ "All I want for Christmas is an API that lets me moderate more effectively." ♫ - Me, earlier this month
    – Andy Mod
    Dec 20, 2017 at 13:35
  • 9
    You seem to be looking at the past with rose colored glasses. SO has had major quality problems since day 1. The problems with low quality content, and a lack of quality content, isn't just a recent problem from the past few years, it's been a consistent problem for the entirety of the site's existence. Now that's not to say that we shouldn't try to do better, or that SO has actually done a good job of improving the site's moderation tools.
    – Servy
    Dec 20, 2017 at 14:19
  • 2
    @gnat that's not easy, nor an answer to my question. I'm not asking for a lower bound of questions that end up in some queue. My point was that questions come in faster than they can be properly reviewed, and that that is the problem. Sure, we can try to make the reviewing process go more smoothly, but even if the capacity would double, would it make a measurable dent?
    – CodeCaster
    Dec 20, 2017 at 14:40
  • 6
    "then Stack Overflow no longer cares about quality" How false is that ? They do care, extremely. It's a struggle between 1. Not discouraging potential GOOD new users from using SO 2. Being strict enough to not let them write many bad question. And to trace that line any better with automatisation, you have anything to suggest ? The true problem is the (not growing) quantity of reviewer VS income of new users. Dec 20, 2017 at 15:43

0

Browse other questions tagged .