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This is a follow up to this post of mine: Downvoting questions because they are based on learning resources frowned upon by the community

I admit that I wrote it in a pretty heated and agitated manner. So now I'm trying my best to remain calm and reasoned.

The problem is that some downvotes seem to be non-substantive. One example of such downvotes I've already seen being discouraged on this site, are votes cast only to reverse other people's votes. I was trying to argue against another type of such downvotes.

Now I understand and agree that no downvotes, cast for whatever reason, should be punishable. I would myself strongly argue against any such policy. But, not punishable does not mean it shouldn't be discouraged!

However, I was getting responses that what I was typing was "bullshit", that people have every right to vote for whatever reasons as they please and that I have no right to judge any votes; even if they vote clearly "including arbitrarily, or exercising no judgment whatsoever".

Four quotes to make myself more clear. Two quotes by Josh Caswell first:

"arbitrarily, or exercising no judgment whatsoever" You may have the right as a practical matter, but that doesn't make this right. Some rights are curtailed at the point they cause harm, and this is that point for votes here.

There's no way to stop it [such voting], but that doesn't mean it should be condoned.

This is exactly what I mean: There should be no policy against such votes and definitely no punishments; however, such behavior should not be condoned.

Rather, it should be discouraged, for example in a way exemplified by this third quote, by StoryTeller:

You didn't "undo" anything. The downvote still stands. It's someones valid opinion of this question. Your opinion differs, but it doesn't unmake the other persons opinion. (...) It did not undo that either. The OP didn't gain +15, but +13. You didn't change anything numerically. Get off the habit of reactive voting. Plenty of very bad questions stay on SO because of it. If you think it's good, vote up, if you do not, don't. It's as simple as that.

Actually even the Help Center does that: fourth quote, from the Help Center:

Use your downvotes whenever you encounter an egregiously sloppy, no-effort-expended post, or an answer that is clearly and perhaps dangerously incorrect. (...) Down-voting should be reserved for extreme cases. It's not meant as a substitute for communication and editing.

As we can see, even the Help Center tries to say how the downvotes should and should not be used.

If, as I've been told below the post I've linked at the top of this post, users have every right to vote for whatever, even non-substantive reasons, and votes must not be judged, then the aforementioned comments by @StoryTeller are flag worthy and the cited passages from the Help Center should be removed.

I am most definitely NOT advocating revoking such down votes or punishing users for casting them!

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  • Do you know that SO discourages downvotes already? It costs you 1 point to downvote. It may be nothing for users with tens of thousands rep points but most of the users won't go downvoting everything for no reason. On meta on the other hand downvotes are free so you can clearly see the difference in the amount of downvotes you get here compared to the main site. Even thou a very small portion of users go to meta.
    – Dmitry
    Commented Nov 23, 2017 at 11:50
  • @Dmitry: to clarify, downvotes on answers cost -1, downvotes on questions are free.
    – halfer
    Commented Nov 23, 2017 at 20:29
  • I don't think Storyteller's comment that you've quoted is "flag-worthy", and I suggest you do not try flagging it. It is a valid interpretation of the guidelines, even if there is some leeway for different opinions here. I personally do exercise some reactive voting, for example in the cases where I think a post does not quite merit a -1, then I might apply -1 only if it already has at least +1.
    – halfer
    Commented Nov 23, 2017 at 20:33
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    I downvoted this. Still havent figured out why though.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 24, 2017 at 17:24
  • @TinyGiant, heh, begone, terrible troll :==)
    – halfer
    Commented Nov 25, 2017 at 13:36
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    Should upvoting for any reason be condoned? Note I don't mean if it should be prohibited, because I know and understand it shouldn't
    – gnat
    Commented Nov 27, 2017 at 16:34
  • @gnat If you upvote a shitty question because you like the OP's nick then I'd say this is not too cool either.
    – user4385532
    Commented Nov 27, 2017 at 16:43

2 Answers 2

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No one is trying to condone this behavior (I would know - I was the answerer you kinda quoted up there), but there's really not much else to say on the matter.

If the voter is not abusing their voting privilege in such a way that exhibits a clear and damaging pattern of use, then there's really not a lot that can be done here, because there is no empirical evidence to suggest that the voting was done in malice or ill-will.

This rule is essentially there to say, "Hey - you really shouldn't be a jerk when downvoting content because it means quite a lot on the back end." So long as users understand that voting is purposeful, and that there realistically can't be restrictions on spurious votes, then it'll work out just fine.

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    "there's really not a lot that can be done here" Nonsense. We can clearly state our standards for voting. Because right now, a lot of people think that it's perfectly fine to vote for any reason, so long as it isn't directed at the poster or for strategic purposes. Whether those standards can be enforced or not, we can at least have them. Commented Nov 23, 2017 at 6:35
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    @NicolBolas: I never diminished the standards. I'm simply admitting that they're all bark and no bite given the circumstances. Personally I wouldn't vote on a whim, but there's no real data point between a vote or two done on a whim or based on quality. The OP seems to believe that there's a way to identify the two and chastise the former, but that simply doesn't exist.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 23, 2017 at 6:47
  • @Makoto Yes - highlighting a possible problem without suggesting a proposal for a solution is not helpful. Commented Nov 23, 2017 at 6:55
  • @NicolBolas: I tend towards the view that unpoliceable laws are bad laws. However, do you have in mind a voting guideline that you'd support? I would be interested to see a proposed text. It could suggest that votes have to be based on quality, with the underlying assumption that it is not possible for mods to verify people are following that.
    – halfer
    Commented Nov 23, 2017 at 20:40
  • It's not a law, @halfer, it's etiquette. It's thinking about the social consequences of one's action, and not using a privilege capriciously.
    – jscs
    Commented Nov 24, 2017 at 16:08
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    @JoshCaswell: we probably agree a great deal. I don't think there is a widespread phenomenon of persistent random voters, mainly because it would be a strange use of a person's time (and troll contributions don't tend to last long here). Moreover, I know I don't vote randomly, and I worry about etiquette to the degree that I sometimes ask myself whether a poor quality or overly-entitled question deserves a DV after I have edited/improved it. So, I don't mind if we were to have a culture of voting etiquette - I am just wondering if it will have any practical effect.
    – halfer
    Commented Nov 24, 2017 at 16:41
  • A single vote means nothing unless it is followed by similar votes. The only way for there to be a problem is if multiple people vote on the same post for reasons other than those objective criteria normally used, or lack of any reasoning. One other possible way for it to be a problem would be if that vote was the only vote that was ever cast on the post, but I think that would be an edge case of an edge case.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 25, 2017 at 21:01
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The site already has rules and guidelines as to what types of voting are condoned. Upvotes are there to indicate that you think a post is useful; downvotes are there to indicate that you think a post isn't useful.

Your previous question was poorly received because you were insisting that someone else was acting inappropriately by downvoting posts that they felt weren't useful just because you think that they are useful. You weren't arguing that the other voter honestly felt that the post was useful and downvoted it anyway, which would actually be something to discourage (although that isn't often enforceable in any way).

There's no need for a change in the policy or the guidelines. There's no reason to say, "You should upvote content that you think is useful, and downvote content that you think isn't useful, except in these situations in which you should vote contrary to your opinion of the post's usefulness:[...]" The guidelines can (and already do) help clarify a bit, by expanding a bit on what are commonly considered useful and not useful behaviors, but at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is whether or not the voter thinks the post is useful.

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