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This may not come often, but I still wonder. Some users have a pet peeve. It may be aimed at doubly tagged and posts, or just an aversion to other ways in which posts are off-topic.

At times, they can systematically go around and downvote all the answers on a question due to said pet peeve. Of course I have no way of knowing for sure. But all the answers being downvoted in a matter of seconds, with correlation to said user's appearance makes me fairly confident it's them.

While it's the general consensus that their vote is their choice, I can't help but feel this sort of passive-aggressive behavior is damaging to the community. That we should discourage such vindictive behavior. If only to make SO more welcoming to those who are only starting their participation by answering.

Is there something that can or should be done?

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    Who are we to argue said user didn't find the answers not useful? or not of the quality standard they feel belongs? Just cast your vote and don't worry about the others. (unless you suspect something fraudulent is happening, in which case you can raise a custom flag and explain)
    – Kevin B
    Nov 7, 2017 at 20:25
  • 3
    Lots of assumptions here, so it's hard to discuss.... what if this user sees a flaw in ALL the answers and downvotes for that reason? You might think it's a pet peeve.... he might be onto something :/.
    – Patrice
    Nov 7, 2017 at 20:28
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    Hmya, he is the Darth Vader of the [c/c++] tag. I'd have to recommend not talking back to him, given that this seems to be the only reason he's still visiting SO. Flag the obnoxious posts, moderators know him well and will get tired again having to deal with him. Nov 7, 2017 at 20:29
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    @StoryTeller And maybe this user is knowledgeable enough to see a different flaw in all of them. My point is that voting is a personal thing, so it's hard to pin down as "clear abuse" often :/ (according to Hans' comment there might be a history of abuse for this user though, which would make my point a bit invalid :P)
    – Patrice
    Nov 7, 2017 at 20:32
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    In most cases i've seen, this kind of voting is often due to a problem with the question that the voter feels the answers should have either waited for clarification or performed some moderation action instead (such as closure.) You could certainly argue that the answers to a useless question are not useful. whether or not that's right is a matter of opinion. Fortunately we only get 40 votes a day, at most 30 on answers, so the harm any one person can do is rather limited and easily outweighed by others voting.
    – Kevin B
    Nov 7, 2017 at 20:34
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    @StoryTeller and you may be onto something, indeed. It's just hard to say since we don't know IF all these votes are theirs, or their reason for downvoting. (I do agree it looks fishy and weird though)
    – Patrice
    Nov 7, 2017 at 20:35
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    @StoryTeller What matters is whether or not an answer is useful, not whether or not an answer is objectively correct. Even though you don't think there is any factually incorrect statements in those answers, whether they are useful answers to the question is highly subjective. Or heck, maybe they're just mistaken in thinking that the answers have technical inaccuracies, in any case, your course of action, as mentioned by others, is to reflect your own opinion of the quality of the posts with your own vote, because you can't affect other's opinions or their ability to reflect them.
    – Servy
    Nov 7, 2017 at 20:40
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    that's like just your opinion. My opinion is "correct" isn't a high enough bar for something to be useful. It's certainly an important aspect, but it's not the whole picture.
    – Kevin B
    Nov 7, 2017 at 20:46
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    As @Kevin said, in most of these cases the voter think that the problem lies with the question; and that most answers to bad questions are not useful.
    – yivi
    Nov 7, 2017 at 20:49
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    @StoryTeller Right, and that's not what votes are for indicating.
    – Kevin B
    Nov 7, 2017 at 20:49
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    @Kevin, not just StoryTeller's opinion. When you get an answer from this guy then just about everybody thinks that is a useful contribution. And it was. It is deleted now. StoryTeller is trying to play it square and avoid naming names. That's not helping him much. Nov 7, 2017 at 20:54
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    @Servy - This is an industry with well established notions of "quality". The concept is heavily researched and mostly in concensus. I don't buy your argument. Nov 7, 2017 at 20:57
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    As Hans points out, I have a pretty good idea of what question inspired this discussion and who might be behind these votes. Not hard to tell from the comments left there, and not the first time we've been flagged about them doing this. At this point, the only thing that would stop this behavior is suspending them from the site. The question is: is it suspension-worthy behavior if you punish everyone answering questions you don't like, even if the answers are well-written, on topic, and factually correct? The votes clearly aren't on the content of the answers, but no specific user is targeted.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Nov 7, 2017 at 21:52
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    @BradLarson: "The question is: is it suspension-worthy behavior if you punish everyone answering questions you don't like, even if the answers are well-written, on topic, and factually correct?" I would say yes. Downvotes should not be used as a tool of punishment. They should show whether the content is good or not. You downvote content that isn't good. You upvote content that is good. Good content posted in response to bad content is still good content. Nov 7, 2017 at 22:09
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    @KevinB: "unless you suspect something fraudulent is happening, in which case you can raise a custom flag and explain" If someone downvotes every answer but their own, we consider that fraud. If someone downvotes every answer from a certain person, we consider that fraud. If someone downvotes every answer from a certain tag, we should also consider that fraud, yes? And if someone downvotes every answer from a closed question, I don't see why that shouldn't be considered just as fraudulent. In all cases, they're using downvotes for something other than its intended purpose of grading content. Nov 7, 2017 at 22:21

3 Answers 3

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I've taken the approach of downvoting every single wrong answer in a question, often because the question is woefully incomplete, or the advice being given out is just garbage.

It often is the case that "every single wrong answer" is "every answer". More times than not, this accompanies a close vote on the question to make it clearer so that other answerers aren't getting spurned. Additionally, I do leave comments on answers in those situations to explain what's going on.

This isn't me being passive-aggressive. This is me sending the clear message, "Perhaps you shouldn't be answering this question until you either understand what's being asked", or "This answer is entirely incorrect."

Saying that this is done out of spite is presumptuous of you, and frankly insulting (although I take no real offense). I don't do any of this to spite anyone.

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    And I sometimes pull up a user's activity page to monitor their edits. It's not fraud, it's that their edits are unhelpful.
    – Nissa
    Nov 7, 2017 at 23:19
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    The Quality Police is getting to be a pretty destructive force at SO. You are just repeating the same tired old refrain, one that has done absolutely nothing noticeable about improving the site's quality. Y'all just hope that it might do something, but you have no evidence at all that it does. And, yet again, it did not. The question was shite but it was answered by highly skilled experts. There are few with more creds than Pete Becker, nobody should ever be deprived of his hotel towels. It is really, really time to sing another song. The old one is not working at all. Nov 7, 2017 at 23:31
  • @StephenLeppik: I've done that as well, just to establish a frame of reference as to what their edits are and what's going on with that noise. It's happened more than once that I've questioned someone's edits.
    – Makoto
    Nov 7, 2017 at 23:32
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    @HansPassant: The times that I've done this, I've intentionally and deliberately left really good answers alone. I'm only handling the poor ones. Note that also I neither know or nor care about the specific case being addressed here, since I wish to answer this in a more broad sense. While I get you may not like what's playing on the radio, you haven't volunteered to change the station. I'm up for a new tune if you've got one to play.
    – Makoto
    Nov 7, 2017 at 23:33
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    @Makoto: "This is me sending the clear message" That's really the big problem with using downvotes like this: you aren't sending a "clear" message. A downvote can happen for any number of reasons. Which means that the person receiving it can assume essentially anything about why that downvote happened. If the receiver of a message doesn't get the same message you sent, then the message isn't clear. Downvotes are a terrible means of message transmission. Or at least, it is for this message. Nov 8, 2017 at 3:16
  • @NicolBolas: I suppose it helps that, in those cases, I do leave a comment in to say, "Hey - this is wrong and this is why." I don't mind adding that in to the answer above just to make it clearer.
    – Makoto
    Nov 8, 2017 at 3:17
  • @Makoto - I'm not asking about voting that looks normal. I myself have downvoted a bunch of answers on questions in the past. They all had the exact same mistake. In this case, the only common thread between these answers was the OP being answered. The only reason I came to suspect anything was because the person in question left an incredibly nitpicking comment. So either the person is incredibly narrow minded, or they have a bone to pick. Nov 8, 2017 at 5:29
  • @HansPassant If you personally think that downvoting content that isn't useful isn't a good way to improve quality, and think that upvoting unhelpful content is a better way to increase the quality of the content on the site, other people won't be able to stop you. But saying that you think the content should be upvoted just because of who the author is, rather than based on the usefulness of the post, is actually voting fraud. You can personally say that you'd rather vote based on the author of the post than the usefulness of the post, but that's not what the site's policy says.
    – Servy
    Nov 8, 2017 at 14:19
1

We as a community give people wide latitude in their votes. While the text says "useful" vs "useless", people can use whatever reasoning they like to justify their own voting patterns.

At the same time, we recognize that certain voting patterns are malicious. We recognize at least the following cases to be fraudulent and therefore punishable:

  • Strategic downvoting:
    • Downvoting answers other than your own.
    • Temporarily downvoting a competing answer.
  • Downvoting a post because of the poster, rather than the content.
  • Upvoting questions/answers from a friend.

But if you generalize these, what you come to realize is that, in all cases, the purpose of these votes is not to assess the content of the post. Strategic downvotes are done to improve one's own chances at upvotes, not to allow better information to outshine worse information. Punitive voting is done to punish/help a user, which is not necessarily beneficial towards adequately scoring the content.

Given this understanding, I would say that we can recognize other forms of fraudulent voting (even if it's not something that can be easily detected):

  • Downvoting all answers/questions that deal with a particular tag. If I hate JavaScript, that doesn't give me the right to walk into the JavaScript tag and spend my 40 downvotes randomly downvoting them.
  • Downvoting all answers to a question because of the subject matter of the question. If I am a C++ programmer with a hatred of all things C, I should not downvote an answer because the question asked about printf.

Is it easy to tell when any of these things happen? No. Voting is secret, after all, and you can't look into someone's head.

But that doesn't mean that they don't happen or that a specific case cannot be made that it has happened. I believe that these are offenses towards the site, and it should be reasonable for moderators to punish someone for misusing the site in such a way. So long as the moderators have collected sufficient evidence for it, of course.

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    First, was strategic downvoting really punishable? Second, what's wrong with downvoting because of a question's nature? If we make that punishable, does that mean that I shouldn't downvote the scores of "write my code for me" questions?
    – Nissa
    Nov 7, 2017 at 22:50
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    @StephenLeppik: "Second, what's wrong with downvoting because of a question's nature?" Perhaps "nature" is the wrong word. More "subject matter". I don't like immediate-mode OpenGL, and I think it does a disservice to the community to answer questions about it (thus enabling its use). Does that give me the right to downvote any content that talks about it? Nov 7, 2017 at 23:00
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    @NicolBolas So you're saying that if someone thinks that this content isn't useful, but you think it's useful, it's fraudulent of them to downvote that content?
    – Servy
    Nov 7, 2017 at 23:03
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    @KevinB: "I'd say downvoting "because javascript" would be simply incorrect. not necessarily fraudulent" What exactly is the distinction between "incorrect" and "fraudulent"? If both of them are improper behavior that can get you banned, then they're essentially equivalent. We call serial voting "fraudulent"; by whatever reasoning that led us to do that, so too should "because JavaScript" voting be "fraudulent". Nov 7, 2017 at 23:08
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    @NicolBolas Fraud comes with the side effect of personal gain. Downvoting all javascript answers provides no personal gain.
    – Kevin B
    Nov 7, 2017 at 23:09
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    @KevinB: Downvoting all answers by a particular person has no (objective) personal gain either. Yet serial downvoting is considered "fraud". Nov 7, 2017 at 23:11
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    serial upvoting is usually fraud. serial downvoting is likely just lumped into the same boat because it's caught by the same algorithm. Any voting activity directed at the user rather than the content is wrong.
    – Kevin B
    Nov 7, 2017 at 23:14
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    @KevinB: But does that mean voting activity directed at a question's subject matter is OK? Nov 7, 2017 at 23:30
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    @KevinB: How is the subject matter of a question not part of its content? I put forward the printf example because I once had a policy of downvoting any answer that suggested using sprintf (a well-known security flaw; all instances of this function should be replaced by snprintf). That sounds like voting based on content. But what if I downvoted all answers on a question about sprintf that didn't suggest that they switch to snprintf? Nov 7, 2017 at 23:48
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    If you're voting solely based on the existence of a tag or function, that's obviously not voting based on the content of the answer. It's no better than voting on the user's reputation.
    – Kevin B
    Nov 8, 2017 at 0:33
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    @KevinB - And yet, that is the case at hand Nov 8, 2017 at 5:23
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    @Servy: "So you're saying that it's an abuse of the system for someone to think that a group of posts is useless when you personally think that it's useful?" No. I'm saying it's an abuse of the system to use it to promote your own personal views, rather than making at least an attempt to be objective. That is, if your assessment of the "usefulness" of the material is bound purely by subjective impressions that are not necessarily relevant to other people, then it's wrong. Nov 8, 2017 at 15:00
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    @Servy: "Your vote exists to express your own personal opinion of the usefulness of the post." If it's just your personal opinion, why is voting visible to other people? The purpose of voting is to have a quick way to see the assessment of others on the question. Therefore, ones vote must be based on things that are germane and useful to other people. I don't care if someone has a personal mad-on for people who answer bad questions or users of printf; I don't need to see those votes. I need to see the votes of people who are self-aware enough to take their ego out of their assessments. Nov 8, 2017 at 15:05
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    @Servy: You're missing my point. There are good opinions and bad ones. We don't want people to vote based on bad opinions, as this tarnishes the usefulness of voting. Downvotes because you think answers to bad questions are a priori useless is a bad opinion, as is downvotes because you think printf is useless. Nov 8, 2017 at 15:40
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    @NicolBolas You're missing my point. You're more than welcome to think that someone else's opinion is a bad opinion, and you're more than welcome to use what you think are good opinions when you cast your own votes. Someone else is not committing voting fraud just because you think their opinion is a bad opinion, just like you aren't committing voting fraud just because they think you're voting based on bad opinions. Everyone gets to vote based on their own opinion of the usefulness of the post, and no one's vote is fraudulent just because someone else doesn't like it.
    – Servy
    Nov 8, 2017 at 15:51
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Downvoting all of a question's answers does not mean that they hate the question. It means that, in their eyes, none of the answers are worth a damn. Just remember that they're spending rep for each downvote.

Is it vindictive? Maybe. Is that wrong? No. Wrong would be, for example, threatening to track down the answerer and murder their family while they sleep. That is, abusive.

The one thing you could do would be, @reply them and invite them to offer a bounty if they don't like the existing answers.

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    "It means that, in their eyes, none of the answers are worth a damn." It may mean that. It may also mean that they don't want the question answered. And there are people on this site who will do exactly that. Unless you're saying that, if I go through your history and downvote every answer, that merely means that in my eyes, none of your answers are worth a damn. Nov 7, 2017 at 22:42
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    Yeah - doesn't make sense. If I don't think that the question belongs on SO, I vote to close it or, if/when appropriate, vote for deletion. Nov 7, 2017 at 22:48
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    @StephenLeppik: It doesn't necessarily do that. But it does punish them for doing so. And again, downvoting answer to punish answerers is a thing that happens. Nov 7, 2017 at 22:49
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    @NicolBolas And since we currently don't have mind reading technology, we can't know why someone is voting the way they are. If you're going to accuse them of having some particular intent with their vote, the burden of proof is on you to show that it's the case.
    – Servy
    Nov 7, 2017 at 22:50
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    so lets say i downvote all the answers on a duplicate question. Prove that i did it to punish the answers rather than to indicate that I found the answers not useful. Sure, that's a very poor use of the limited votes available considering the question will likely not be deleted, but is it fraudulent? Now apply the same thought to an unclear question. or a low quality question.
    – Kevin B
    Nov 7, 2017 at 22:52
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    @Servy: We seem to have some form of mind-reading technology. Because we have scripts to check for serial voting. That is, a sequence of voting that is aimed at a person, rather than at the content. How does it do that? It sees that you're casting votes on that person's stuff disproportionately. And we have no problem suspending people for doing so. I'm not saying it's easy to prove that something like this happens. But we should not pretend that it doesn't, nor should we assume that it is valid behavior. Nov 7, 2017 at 22:52
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    @NicolBolas In the one an only case of actual voting fraud recognized by the system, we do it in cases where there is significant and compelling evidence that the votes weren't cast based on the quality of the content in question. So, as I said before, you have a significant burden of proof to demonstrate that these votes weren't cast based on the usefulness of the posts.
    – Servy
    Nov 7, 2017 at 22:56
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    @Servy: How many votes does it take before the evidence is "significant and compelling"? Is there a number? A percentage? Or is it locked behind an algorithm we're not allowed access to? I'm not saying that we should develop some algorithm to find the type of voting discussed by the OP. I'm saying we should not dismiss the possibility of what the OP says being what happened. And that we should make it clear that, even though we cannot prove it in all cases, it's not something people ought to do. Nov 7, 2017 at 22:58
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    @KeithNicholas in this case, the downvoter identified themself.
    – Nissa
    Nov 7, 2017 at 23:00
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    @NicolBolas It's not a question of number of votes. The community has come to the consensus that someone who just goes through someone else's profile and downvotes a whole bunch of their posts is extremely likely to not be evaluating the quality of those posts, and is instead voting based on a factor other than the post's usefulness, and there is enough data to make a reasonably likely assumption as to when someone isn't actually evaluating the usefulness of the post.
    – Servy
    Nov 7, 2017 at 23:01
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    @Servy: But that's not how the script works. If you just so happen to frequent the tag of another user, and you downvote every post that user makes, that too is serial voting. It doesn't matter if you find the post though their profile or because you happen to be in similar circles; it's still serial voting. Nov 7, 2017 at 23:10
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    @NicolBolas There are numerous factors that it takes into consideration when determining if the votes are fraudulent (although, as mentioned, the specifics are not public), and it's not just how many votes were cast on a given user. It also considers the times of the votes as well. Yes, you are correct that the script only determines a high probability that the votes weren't cast based on the posts' usefulness, and there are (hopefully sufficiently rare) false positives. It's also why the votes are merely reverted, and no further action is taken.
    – Servy
    Nov 7, 2017 at 23:14
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    So, can you come up with some other metric by which we can determine, with a very high probability, that a given set of votes were not in fact cast based on the voter's opinion of the usefulness of the posts? It doesn't need to be perfect, but it should be quite low on false positives.
    – Servy
    Nov 7, 2017 at 23:14
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    @StephenLeppik You are correct that it's not voting fraud in such cases. What it is is an unfortunate case of a false positive in the vote fraud detection script. The script does have false positives, and it's unfortunate, but they're infrequent enough, and the consequences for being wrong are low enough, that the community as a whole considers it an acceptable cost for having a voting script around to handle all of the cases it gets right.
    – Servy
    Nov 7, 2017 at 23:15
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    @Servy: My whole point in bringing up the serial voting script was to show that we don't need to read the person's mind to find such misuses of the site; just the person's voting patterns. A distinction needs to be made between "stuff we don't want people to do" and "stuff that can easily be policed". Just because it's difficult in general to police what the OP is alleging, that doesn't mean it's OK to do it. Nor does it mean that it's wrong to flag the moderators if you have some reasonable evidence (as in this case) that it's going on. Nov 7, 2017 at 23:31

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