8

Here's a question that was deleted in record time:

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46433927/why-doesnt-the-else-statement-work

This of course is a rite of passage for every C and C++ programmer, using = instead of == in an if statement. Of course it should be closed (although I'd rather see it flagged as a dupe instead of a typo). But if it's deleted before the OP gets a chance to see the outcome, how will they figure out what they did wrong? Aren't we just inviting them to ask the question again?

I thought we were supposed to let the Roomba get around to deleting questions in due time.

I would worry less about this if I knew the OP could see their question along with the comments and answers even after it was deleted. Can they?

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  • 3
    A user will see their own deleted posts, but only for a limited time.
    – gunr2171
    Sep 26, 2017 at 19:23
  • The OP can see deleted questions in the past 60 days if they hit the checkbox on their question list. As for manually deleting the question it had a answer that was up voted which I believe stops the roomba. Sep 26, 2017 at 19:23
  • 2
    @gunr2171 They can see their own deleted questions forever. They only have a page linking them to the question temporarily.
    – Servy
    Sep 26, 2017 at 19:26
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    Unfortunately the question would attract answers, and since the answers are almost guaranteed to be correct, they'll attract upvotes, which results in the question never being deleted due to it having an answer that the community has indicated is useful. Deleting it with delete votes bypasses that possibility.
    – Kevin B
    Sep 26, 2017 at 19:27
  • 1
    @KevinB: Maybe you should codify that as an actual answer instead of a comment.
    – Makoto
    Sep 26, 2017 at 19:28
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    well, it's not an adverse effect to deleting it quickly, it's an adverse effect to not deleting it quickly.
    – Kevin B
    Sep 26, 2017 at 19:29
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    That's irrelevant to the Q here. The Q here is about quick deletions not closures. Sep 27, 2017 at 4:32
  • 2
    @MartinSmith deletion is impossible if it isn't closed.
    – Kevin B
    Sep 27, 2017 at 4:32
  • 2
    Yes, closing is a necessary prerequisite for a question being deleted by community vote. Once it is closed no answers can be given. So why is it necessary to rush to delete it? Your comment about "Unfortunately the question would attract answers" is solved by closing not by deleting. Deletion happens when votes are applied to the Q after it is already in a state where no answers can be given. Sep 27, 2017 at 4:35
  • 3
    the sample question is a typo question. completely useless. quick closure is necessary if the question is to be closed before it receives answers, answers that would prevent said useless question from being collected via the roomba
    – Kevin B
    Sep 27, 2017 at 4:44
  • 1
    @Kevin, you keep talking about closure. No one here is talking about closure; they're talking about deletion. Obviously the question needs to be closed. The issue is, does it need to be immediately deleted after it's closed? Sep 27, 2017 at 4:47
  • 3
    immediately, maybe not, but if it has upvoted answers... manual deletion is the only alternative to leaving it sitting around forever. doing it while it is active has the best chance for it actually happening.
    – Kevin B
    Sep 27, 2017 at 4:48
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    as they said in duplicate, "You have it backwards, I think..." I honestly don't give a sh!t about what question askers get or miss. I use Stack Overflow to solve my programming problems. I search for solutions to these in Google and I want my searches to return meaningful results and I don't want my searches to return garbage left at the site because someone felt a pity about next brainless asker who didn't bother to check for duplicates
    – gnat
    Sep 27, 2017 at 8:32
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    I think there were some misconceptions about @KevinB's comments here. He was describing a situation (i.e. question asked, receives answer that is obviously correct, answer gets upvoted, question gets closed, now we're at the point of delete). The point it seems like he was trying to make is that in situations like that, the roomba will not clean up the question due to it having a positive scoring answer, which is why the question needed to be deleted manually.
    – user4639281
    Sep 27, 2017 at 15:17
  • 2
    Exactly. it's certainly not the situation that always occurs, but if the question isn't closed fast enough (very common), we're often left with correct, upvoted, useless answers to a useless question with a title that will more often than not attract users that have a different problem. the only way to remove said useless question + answers at that point is deletion.
    – Kevin B
    Sep 27, 2017 at 15:22

4 Answers 4

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But if it's deleted before the OP gets a chance to see the outcome

Lets debunk several things wrong with this sentence:

  1. The author can always see their deleted post. Always.
  2. What the author can't see is the list of their deleted posts which were deleted after 60 days.
  3. Inbox notifications are only invalidated if the content that caused those notifications is deleted.

All in all, OP do always get the chance to see the outcome: that their question was closed and deleted. So that's not a problem.

how will they figure out what they did wrong?

Since above is not true, this question is irrelevant. They can figure out. It will be on their deleted post.

Aren't we just inviting them to ask the question again?

I've seen cases where OP keep asking the same question, again and again, since they don't get an answer. We aren't making it more likely as they got their response: do your homework before asking.

I thought we were supposed to let the Roomba get around to deleting questions in due time.

Roomba is just a convenience given our short attention spans. Also, that it's a freaking drag to go back to the questions that were closed 2 days ago just to delete them. Roomba allows you to fire-and-forget your close votes and concentrate on the questions that can at least be fleshed out.

Also, we were given delete votes for deleting post. We are allowed to vote to delete immediately if the score is -3 or less. Not using the moderating power within the confines of what it is allowed when we feel it's warranted is several times worse. See this little fun page screen shot and read this blog post.

So, no, you are not supposed to wait for roomba.

I would worry less about this if I knew the OP could see their question along with the comments and answers even after it was deleted. Can they?

They can't see the answers on their deleted questions, as the answers aren't theirs (unless they got 10k and can see everyone deleted post). Comments and their own questions are visible.

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    You may consider changing the answer from 1st person to 3rd person, so that you don't give the impression that you have earned the privilege to delete posts (10K), let alone to instantly delete them (20K), when you clearly have not.
    – user000001
    Sep 27, 2017 at 12:54
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    @user000001 I've earned that privilege on other sites. Also, that's irrelevant. "We" here is the community.
    – Braiam
    Sep 27, 2017 at 13:16
9

Let me offer this from a different perspective: a code consumer

I have an error. I do the right thing and Google it. I get a page filled with question after question asking the same thing over and over. Worse, a lot of them are junky answers to the question. They point out a typo and that's it. As Shog9 noted years ago it sucks to find your answer is in another castle.

We delete link-only answers as Low Quality. But not deleting some of these low quality questions is creating the exact same situation.

Just how many questions are we going to force users to sort through find that really useful question with a great answer? In many cases the answer is 0. Slap it into another question and let SO sort it out. So we did. We closed it as a typo and deleted it. Maybe a duplicate would have been more useful, but exactly how many signposts does one need?

It's important to note that deletion is harder than closure (immediate deletion requires a -3 and 3 20k+ users), and we don't have as many delete votes as closed. Most closed questions never get deleted (fun fact: accept or upvote an answer and it will not Roomba). In fact, many bad questions don't even get closed.

At the end of the day we're about signal-to-noise. SO succeeds because we keep it that way. I get annoyed trying to find an answer in nothing but noise. That's why SOCVR exists. It's also why I voted to delete the example question.

-5

I've raised this issue on SO CVR before, since a number of quick deletions are organised there. I've objected to it in chat, because it seems to be a good way to get a new user to feel really defeated: a closed question can be recovered, but a closed and deleted one feels rather mean, even though that is rarely the intent of the delete-voters.

Cast delete votes on old questions, by all means, but otherwise I think brand new questions that are closed quickly should just wait for the Roomba. Even if the OP tries to edit it to improve it, and it is still off-topic, I am not sure deletion is appropriate, since that prevents anyone from giving advice in the comments.

(Aside: I should say I am in favour of SO CVR generally, and participate from time to time in raising and processing collaborative close requests. I think everyone in the room is community-minded and well-intentioned, and I just disagree on this small part of an otherwise good process).

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    The SOCVR isn't about "deletions". It's about streamlining the process of closing questions.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 27, 2017 at 14:51
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    Well indeed @Cerbrus, but some immediate deletions are organised there ([tag:del-pls])
    – halfer
    Sep 27, 2017 at 14:52
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    Only for the exceptionally bad cases, though. Certaily not "a lot"
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 27, 2017 at 14:55
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    The only time I've seen (or made) a deletion recommendation for a post that would've been roomba'd is when it was clearly OT and could not be saved (and I wanted my downvotes back). Sep 27, 2017 at 15:16
  • 1
    Like this. Is there an adverse impact here? Sep 27, 2017 at 15:21
  • (@SotiriosDelimanolis: Yay meta effect)
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 27, 2017 at 15:22
  • heh, OT (referring to the linked question), but i find it humorous that there's a jobs area on SO while we don't allow jobs questions on SO.
    – Kevin B
    Sep 27, 2017 at 15:28
  • 1
    The undelete vote is a joke, right? Damn.... Sep 27, 2017 at 17:38
-7

I agree; this is a problem.

Too many people are abusing deletion as a sort of "super-downvote", a way to take out their (quite reasonable) frustration with these types of questions.

The correct way to deal with these questions is to close them (either as a duplicate or some other reason, but duplicate is probably preferable, if a good target exists) and downvote them. That serves all required purposes:

  • it gives the asker feedback,
  • it gives the system feedback,
  • it stops the question from being pushed into the faces of potential answerers,
  • it prevents an influx of duplicate and/or similarly low-quality answers,
  • and probably more things that I'm forgetting.

Rapid, manual deletion of these questions simply isn't necessary, and generally does more harm than good. As others have pointed out in the comments, questions that have been closed and are zero- or negatively-scored will be automatically deleted in due time by a cleanup process (one we affectionately refer to as the Roomba). If you delete it sooner than that, you prevent the person from actually receiving the feedback we're trying to give them.

(Yes, users can see their own deleted questions, but only if they know how to find them. Users who are new to the site probably don't know how. Anecdotal evidence certainly suggests that they do not.)

Deleting it sooner, rather than later, doesn't help push the asker any further toward a question-ban. In fact, if you're really cynical, you'd say that it can only hurt, because deleted questions can't receive additional downvotes. If you're optimistic, it means that the person can't learn from their mistakes and can't even fix the question, transforming it into something that does meet our guidelines.

Stop trying to "punish" people by deleting their low-quality questions. The only questions you need to be deleting immediately after closure are questions that are actively causing harm. Another beginner or typo question is not actively causing harm—not once it's closed and downvoted.

I'll even go one step further: the overzealous deletion of duplicate questions is harmful. I'm starting to see that a lot, especially in certain tags. (I won't call out names here; I'm hoping you know who you are). The whole point of duplicates is to serve as sign posts to the master question, where all the good answers are collected. If you go around prematurely deleting these duplicate stubs, you're only shooting ourselves in the collective foot, because you increase the chances that people will ask more duplicates because they were unable to find the answer they were looking for, using whatever bogus search terms they happened to type in.

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    "Unfortunately the question would attract answers, and since the answers are almost guaranteed to be correct, they'll attract upvotes, which results in the question never being deleted due to it having an answer that the community has indicated is useful. Deleting it with delete votes bypasses that possibility." (source: Kevin B). The deletion often isn't really to "punish" the OP, but to prevent other people from gaining form the bad question, by answering it.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 27, 2017 at 10:50
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    @Cerbrus If the question is closed, then it cannot be answered, making that irrelevant. Sep 27, 2017 at 10:52
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    Cody, those easy questions often get somewhere between 3-10 answers before it's closed. Sure, the answers are correct, and everyone knows they are, because it's yet another duplicate, so those answers will still gather upvotes while the question is closed, while preventing the roomba from doing it's job. That's why those questions are being deleted. To stop people from profiting from, basically, junk.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 27, 2017 at 10:55
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    @CodyGray but duplicate is probably preferable, if a good target exists Piggybacking off of Cerbrus' comment, I disagree with your answer, if the question is one that has a dozen signposts already, one more is just noise, and also noise that inadvertently rewards some FGITW answerer with a few rep they probably shouldn't have gained. Though that is another question... are people allowed to 'profit' on SO for knowing and answering something that's been known and answered before? Or is rep only deserved for truly new solutions, like in the fields of science?
    – TylerH
    Sep 27, 2017 at 15:07
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    If this were a question with no upvoted answers, and one that hasn't been asked a ton of times before, I would agree with you; mark it as a duplicate and let the system take care of it in due time.
    – TylerH
    Sep 27, 2017 at 15:08
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    Clearly I am missing something. It was a question with no upvoted answers. Yes, if a question has a dozen signposts already, then it probably isn't useful, but that's frequently not the case in the deletions I've looked at, and certainly wasn't the case in the question in question. I will admit I'm not terribly concerned about stopping people from earning reputation from contributing answers that are perceived as useful. Sep 28, 2017 at 9:26
  • Bad questions being on the site does harm by junking up search results. Removing bad questions is not intended to punish a user for harming the site; it's intended to prevent the harm. Signposts are basically only good for the title, and only as valuable as that title. Not to mention, there are many other good reasons to close and delete a question quickly, besides duplication. In particular, typo questions can only be useful signposts if a canonical exists, which requires the typo not to be idiosyncratic. Aug 1, 2022 at 19:11
  • One's own deleted question is normally easy to find for a user who actually cares. In fact, it's trivial if the user cared enough to leave a browser tab open to refresh and wait for an answer. Aug 1, 2022 at 19:12

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