24

means exactly the same as combining + . I cannot see which of them to use for Excel VBA programming questions.

Maybe we should burninate the former as duplicate or something?

Despite the fact that 's description suggests using app-specific tags for app-specific questions, practice shows that this is sufficiently non-intuitive that users utilize either combination, or both.

17
  • Perhaps a moderator could remove the excel and vba tags from all questions tagged with those and excel-vba?
    – Makoto
    Sep 2, 2017 at 3:14
  • 3
  • 6
    These tags have been the subject of very nasty retagging wars. But luckily and in spite of its bloodied victims it just doesn't matter what you pick, either [excel] or [vba] or [excel-vba] or any combination thereof select the exact same set of experts. If you are in a contributor role then just add all 3 of them to your favored tag list. Sep 2, 2017 at 8:47
  • 3
    Actually [excel-vba] is slightly different to [excel]+[vba]. The former should be referring to the specific subset of VBA which is peculiar to the Excel Object model, while the latter would be referring to generic VBA questions (i.e. the part that is consistent between all flavours of it) while being run within an Excel situation. The latter could probably do without [excel], but please don't change the [vba] to say [excel-vba] in that situation. (And don't change [excel-vba] and [word-vba], etc, to just [vba] or else I will be inundated with questions I can't answer.)
    – YowE3K
    Sep 3, 2017 at 8:34
  • @YowE3K see the last paragraph on the post. Besides, as a rule, an OP doesn't know for certain if his problem is covered by "product-agnostic" or "product-specific" part of VBA (or both/neither). Who even cares about this distinction?! It's not like it has any practical value (it would if MSO was an open-source product - that would govern which module to search the source code in / report issues for). Sep 3, 2017 at 8:42
  • You know what the real problem is: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/350650/… and meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/256623/what-to-do-about-macros and meta.stackexchange.com/questions/138044/…. Would be nice if we could solve that, instead of bickering which tag is most relevant. As we have a lot of questions with all 3 described tags, the amount of effort required to consolidate it to either of the suggestions is in no way related to the benefit gained.
    – Luuklag
    Sep 4, 2017 at 6:33
  • @Luuklag tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToWorseProblems . I don't see how [macros] is relevant here. Feedback there shows that macros are a wide concept, not specific to Office, and distinct from VBA. Create a [retag-request] or something if you wish to use community's help retagging, Sep 4, 2017 at 9:54
  • 1
    @YowE3K When you say the specific subset of VBA which is peculiar to the Excel Object model, what do you mean? Is there some special VBA language syntax when running under Excel? Or do you mean the global objects which are available only when VBA is run under Excel? If the latter, then by extension there should be a wscript-javascript, browser-javascript, uno-javascript and nodejs-javascript, because each of these environments have their own global objects. ...
    – Zev Spitz
    Sep 4, 2017 at 21:54
  • @YowE3K ... I would suggest that when a language which is used in multiple environments, where each environment has its own global objects, the global objects are completely orthogonal to the language.
    – Zev Spitz
    Sep 4, 2017 at 21:55
  • @ZevSpitz Primarily the differences are due to the objects/methods/properties available and the way similarly named objects are used (e.g. the Range object in Excel is wildly different to the Range object in Word), but there are some built-in functions that are also different between the various flavours (e.g. the Nz function exists in Access, but not in Excel). So most people fluent in one version of VBA can answer questions re syntax in any flavour of VBA, but would be struggling to answer questions re how to do things in unfamiliar flavours.
    – YowE3K
    Sep 4, 2017 at 22:29
  • @ZevSpitz So having just one tag for all VBA flavours is similar to suggesting we just have one [c] tag instead of, for instance, [c], [c#], and [c++]. And if we decide to just have one [vba] tag, why not go further and make it just a single [vb] tag and get rid of [vb6] and [vb.net]. Then we could combine that with other languages and just have [program].
    – YowE3K
    Sep 4, 2017 at 22:29
  • @YowE3K As you say, Excel.Range is different from Word.Range because they are two different types, in two different type libraries, which just happen to have the same name. But these two different libraries are orthogonal to VBA -- I can use VBA without either type library, and I can use either type library without VBA. The same is true for Nz, which is a method on the Access.Application type. Depending on which references have been added to a project, or which environment hosts the code, there will be different objects available; but these do not change the VBA langauge itself.
    – Zev Spitz
    Sep 4, 2017 at 22:38
  • @ZevSpitz So from your last comment it sounds like you believe each question should use a [vba] tag (to indicate the syntax of the language) together with a, for instance, [excel-vba] tag (to indicate the specific objects being referred to). In that case, I think I am in agreement with you.
    – YowE3K
    Sep 4, 2017 at 22:45
  • 1
    @YowE3K But why excel-vba? Why not just excel? And if because you want to indicate the Automation objects, then it should be excel-automation or excel-activex, as the Automation objects can be used independently of VBA.
    – Zev Spitz
    Sep 4, 2017 at 22:47
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat.
    – Zev Spitz
    Sep 4, 2017 at 22:57

4 Answers 4

26

As Hans Passant commented, the VBA tags have been the subject of a number of retagging wars, motivated by (as far as I can tell) two primary factors:

  1. People who feel that naming makes a big difference in discouraging off-topic questions, and therefore want to eliminate a tag like that might imply general-use questions about Excel are on-topic, replacing it with something like that is more obviously about programing, and

  2. People who misunderstand the guidance provided regarding "meta tags", misapplying the rule of thumb that a good tag is one that can stand alone on a question to exclude the possibility of using combinations of tags. These people feel that separate and are no good because a single one of those tags wouldn't be adequate to describe the topic of the question, and they therefore deem both of those tags as "meta tags", preferring to replace them with a single, combined tag, .

The problem with number 1 is that the theory is lacking for evidence. Even when we use tags like , we get plenty of off-topic questions under that tag. There's never been any data presented to confirm the hypothesis that begets more off-topic questions than . Furthermore, as I repeatedly insist, we need not clutter up our tag system with things that should be obvious, like the fact that this site is intended for programming questions. The tag exists, but nobody rolls up to this site asking questions about large, non-venomous snakes. It doesn't need to be (even though it now could be, since the tag character limit has been increased to 35).

The problem with number 2 is a simple misunderstanding of what was meant by a "meta tag". Consistent with the definition of the Greek-derived prefix, "meta", a "meta tag" is one that describes the nature or type of a question, rather than its content. Examples of meta tags are , , , , , , and so on. It is not as simple as "a tag that cannot stand alone as a question's sole tag", and even if it were, or could certainly stand alone—it just wouldn't be as effective as having multiple tags, which is why we allow up to 5 tags per question in the first place.

All of that to say, there is absolutely no reason to have an tag when separate and tags will do. The only reason we have this is someone (or multiple someones) with retagging privileges decided to invent it, and everyone thereafter who asked an Excel VBA question saw all these tags in the auto-suggest pop-up and didn't know which one to pick, resulting in the current mess.

The tag system is designed to filter/sort based on multiple tags using basic Boolean logic, so experts on Word VBA that don't want to see Excel questions can just filter by + and exclude . This is just as natural, if not more so, than filtering by and having to contend with "generic" questions where a particular application has not been specified.

It's the same reason why we are fine with and tags, instead of a tag. You can use in conjunction with any programming language tag that supports pointers. There is no universe in which it is better to have separate *-pointer tags for each programming language.

Unfortunately, given the current set of tooling surrounding tags, the mess is going to be difficult to correct. Makoto suggests that a moderator might be able to selectively remove tags using some type of Boolean logic, but unfortunately, we cannot do so. We can merge tags (and, as a subset of that functionality, rename tags). We can also create synonyms, which establish automatic mapping relationships between two tags. But that's pretty much it. I believe that a developer or community manager can delete tags, but I don't think it supports logic sufficiently advanced for a task like this.

That leaves us with manually retagging all of the questions, which is a massive amount of busy work (not to mention creates a large amount of disruption) that I don't really think would pay dividends at the moment.

Again, as Hans suggests, contributors should just follow all of the relevant tags: , , and . When asking a question, you will be safe if you only include one of those tags, but it's best if you include all of them.

24
  • You could make [excel-vba] a synonym of [vba] and manually add [excel] if you find a question that needs it. By looking, I saw that a lot of [excel-vba] questions are already tagged [excel] anyway. It's the same logic as if a [c-pointer] tag would be created, it would probably become a synonym of [pointer]. Sep 3, 2017 at 8:25
  • 3
    The ultimate flaw is the implicit assumption that a [vba] programmer could not answer an [excel] question. Which is fairly nonsensical, being able to spread your programming knowledge across multiple domains, learning about them in the process, is one of the reasons why programmers keep contributing to SO. Experts have a knack for creating isolated islands of knowledge, matching their specific expertise. Neither helpful to askers nor contributors. Sep 3, 2017 at 10:36
  • I don't see any "advanced logic" in the description that can't be automated. The algorithm described is "replace with [excel]+[vba] or just delete if they are already present". That's not something that can't be done with a DB query, if anything. But that doesn't even matter. If we have an algorithm, it's SE's job to think of a specific technical way to carry it out. If it can't be done with conventional tools, we can e.g. make a retag-request for privileged users to complete. Sep 3, 2017 at 11:25
  • 2
    Um, you can insist all day long that "it's SE's job", but it's not. You can't force them to do it. No, the logic isn't especially advanced, but as far as I know, the tooling doesn't support it, so it's not going to happen. I already covered that I don't think a bunch of manual retagging is a good idea. Sep 3, 2017 at 11:27
  • Sure, we can't force them, but we can make them look bad -- which they will if they flat-out ignore a highly-voted community request. Sep 3, 2017 at 13:55
  • FWIW, this seems to be possible via the web API, so the fact that "the tooling doesn't support it" is not a death sentence. Sep 3, 2017 at 13:55
  • In particular, stackapps.com/questions/7533/… looks adequate for the job. Sep 3, 2017 at 14:02
  • That bot is horribly broken and has caused problems in the past. Furthermore, it doesn't do anything magical. It just submits edits on behalf of a user. That doesn't solve the "massively disruptive to bump hundreds of old posts" problem, or the "pointless" problem. Sep 3, 2017 at 14:04
  • The point is to stop mass confusion and inconvenience which, as the votes and related discussions signify, is a problem persisting for quite some time. Bumping old posts is only a transient issue - nothing compared to eliminating a constant thorn in the side. (Of course, I would prefer to do without it, but if that's not possible, oh well. Of course, I'll wait for at least a few days (or longer, until enough feedback accumulates) to double-check if there's a better way.) Sep 3, 2017 at 14:18
  • 1
    @CÅ“ur, that ignores the fact that VBA is also usefull in other MS-Office suites, and anyone with a MS Word specific question, that uses the vba tag will automatically be dropped in the excel-vba list. Not really desired IMHO.
    – Luuklag
    Sep 4, 2017 at 8:14
  • 1
    It's the otherway around, @Luuklag. Synonymizing on StackOverflow is to make a tag disappear by slowly keeping only one canon tag. So there is no more android-listview list to look at (it got anything with a listview, android or not) and there would be no more excel-vba list to look at (it would have anything with vba, excel or not). To list excel+vba, use the two tags together.
    – Cœur
    Sep 4, 2017 at 9:34
  • 2
    I don't think we need [excel-vba]. I also don't think we need a big expenditure of effort to remove it. Sep 5, 2017 at 3:47
  • 1
    So... I could do this easily enough, @ivan_pozdeev... The obvious solution is to just add excel and vba to all excel-vba questions, then merge excel-vba into excel (or vba). What gives me pause there is that excel-vba has 17K followers (folks who either have a pattern matching the tag set as a favorite or subscribe to a tag filter that includes it). Handling such a massive retag without screwing this up for them would require... care.
    – Shog9
    Sep 11, 2017 at 4:16
  • 1
    @Shog9 the easiest workaround would probably be to contact them like moderators can to notify of this (I've never had such a message sent to me so not sure how this works). Another way is to check if the new combination is covered by their favorites/subscriptions as they are and only notify those for whom it isn't. Beside that, deleting tags is not something new - are there already any mechanisms in place to notify affected users? If there are, just burninate it rather than merge or whatever would trigger a mechanism. Sep 11, 2017 at 12:35
  • 1
    That would be a good example, I detest wpf pretty heavily. Could not put a XAML design together if my life depended on it. But I still have a gold badge for [wpf]. That is because those questions are tagged [c#][wpf] and not [c#-wpf] and not all wpf questions require knowing XAML. All language tags work like that, SO would be horribly boring and people burn out in a manner of months if it didn't. Jan 25, 2018 at 9:10
5

Based on the concerns that Shog raised in his comment, he had me do a bit of digging on this. I took a look at the total number of users who have as one of their favorites to get some more details on them.

Of the 19k users who follow the about half of them don't follow and . Meaning if we got rid of the tag, then the workflow of ~8.5k users would be broken. That's a bit of a problem. These users depend on the to identify question that interest them or skip over the ones that don't.

Based on the number of people who would be impacted by removing , it's not likely we'd remove the tag.

8
  • I think that a tag warning for excel is warranted.
    – Braiam
    Sep 25, 2017 at 18:08
  • Why excel @Braiam?
    – Taryn
    Sep 25, 2017 at 19:28
  • Most vba askers may lose the opportunity of their question be answered due using the excel tag instead of the excel-vba tag. The vba and excel-vba tags seems less likely to be left unanswered.
    – Braiam
    Sep 25, 2017 at 20:10
  • What about the suggestions in meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/356057/… ? I hate to reiterate that, but deleting tags is not something new or unexpected by users. As an IT pro, I refuse to believe that nothing can be done due to a purely technical issue. Sep 26, 2017 at 9:36
  • 1
    @ivan_pozdeev There is a burnination process that should be followed when removing tags, this involves having a discussion with the community. Beyond using Meta to have these discussions, we don't email or contact users about removing tags.
    – Taryn
    Sep 26, 2017 at 12:59
  • If banner ads can be put up notifying about Documentation, and a banner can be displayed congratulating Jon Skeet on a million rep, why not do something similar for these tag combinations (all the [tag:*-vba] variants).
    – Zev Spitz
    Jan 25, 2018 at 8:56
  • Any question tagged excel-vba is inevitably a question that makes use of the Excel Activex/Automation object model (unless it's a question about pure VBA or some other Automation object model; in which case it has virtually nothing to do with Excel). Renaming this tag directly to something like excel-activex or excel-automation-object-model (if such a renaming is possible), or aliasing excel-vba to such newly created tags would not break the workflow of the users you mention.
    – Zev Spitz
    Apr 11, 2018 at 12:12
  • Interesting statistics but the interpretation doesn't make sense. If we were to remove excel-vba then why not also add excel and vba to for users that favorite's the excel-vba tag? Also, the data is polled under the assumption that all users put effort into that list. I don't even know what my fav tags are; I use a button on my toolbar to a bookmark: new Qs of my preferred mix
    – ashleedawg
    Jun 29, 2018 at 10:54
1

A question could be tagged because any one of the following applies to the question:

  1. Intersection of programming with/automating and the language
  2. VBA hosted under an Excel instance
  3. Macros embedded in an Excel document
  4. Programming/automating Excel using (AFAIK) the only object model available in VBA -- the ActiveX/COM/Automation object model

With which aspect does this tag add value (i.e. describe something relevant about the question that a combination of other tags could not)?

  1. No value over +
  2. Neither the specific application hosting the code,
  3. nor the location of the source code is nearly as relevant when it comes to tagging a question, as what is the OP trying to do.
  4. There might be some value in this meaning. While this is the only object model in VBA, the object model can be used in other languages, where it is not the only game in town (e.g. xlwings in Python, or EPPPlus in .NET languages). A tag with this meaning could then be used with a different language tag to indicate the Automation API.

I can see three viable strategies:

  1. Do nothing. As Hans Passant notes in the comments tagging with either or + will bring a question to the attention of experts.
  2. Automated retag of all questions to +. This doesn't appear to be a viable solution, because it would break the workflow of anyone who only following the original tag.
  3. Rename to something that reflects meaning #4 -- or
8
  • If you retag all [excel-vba] to [vba], I assume you propose to retag all [word-vba], [access-vba], etc, to [vba] as well. And, I assume, all [c++] and [c#] to [c].
    – YowE3K
    Sep 4, 2017 at 22:51
  • 1
    @YowE3K What if you retag all [excel-vba] to [excel]+[vba]? Which is what I am proposing. Because varying built-in objects and referenced libraries doth not a language make.
    – Zev Spitz
    Sep 4, 2017 at 22:52
  • 1
    I believe that meanings #3 and #4 are adequately covered by the [excel] tag. In the context of a programming Q&A site, what else could "excel" mean? It doesn't refer to general usage of the application. If you want to see non-VBA stuff, search for [excel] -[vba]. Sep 5, 2017 at 3:49
  • @CodyGray It could be argued that excel means "programming via the Excel application", which would indeed cover all these meanings. However, the tag in that sense has as much value as a tag for "programming with Visual Studio" -- while a given question may be about code that was written in Visual Studio, that is usually not of primary importance WRT the question. But if excel has the different meaning of "programming/automating Excel to do something", that would be independent of the runtime environment (#2; e.g. automating Excel from Word) ...
    – Zev Spitz
    Sep 5, 2017 at 5:00
  • @CodyGray ... location of source code (#3, e.g. a macro embedded in a Word document for automating Excel), or specific API (#4, e.g. xlwings in Python).
    – Zev Spitz
    Sep 5, 2017 at 5:01
  • i. 4) is not relevant 'cuz OLE Automation is not VBA. It's rather a language-agnostic object model. Mar 4, 2018 at 20:52
  • @ivan_pozdeev If that is the meaning of this tag, then it should certainly be renamed to excel-object-model or something similar (as I propose in my last suggestion). Generally, when it comes to tags which are the intersection of orthogonal domains, the correct solution is to split the two tags (e.g. retag all questions as excel + vba), which may not be a viable alternative here. However, because there is something which applies specifically to this intersection of excel-vba -- the Excel Automation object model -- perhaps a viable solution would be to simply rename ...
    – Zev Spitz
    Mar 5, 2018 at 2:36
  • @ivan_pozdeev this tag.
    – Zev Spitz
    Mar 5, 2018 at 2:36
0

This is a case of the "intersecting categories" problem. Let's see how the criteria in the linked post apply to these specific tags:

  • 1) holds for multiple-product questions if programming proper is only done in some of them and not others (which are a vast minority). It doesn't hold for one-product questions.
  • 2) is borderline: VBA has few enough differences in features, code organization and operation between Office products for a person proficient with one be able to relatively quickly work out an answer for any other shall they feel like that. On the other hand, people proficient in one product may not feel like spending time on (questions on) those that they don't actively work with.

Combined, in the typical case, it seems more likely that arguments for the combination tag don't hold rather than they do.

1
  • " VBA has few enough differences in features, code organization and operation between Office products for a person proficient with one be able to relatively quickly work out an answer for any other shall they feel like that." - However, many, many VBA users are just starting out in their programming adventure. It took me nearly two weeks to figure out why code that worked in Outlook-VBA wouldn't work in Excel-VBA when I was first learning. The differences are small to an experienced programmer, yes. When you're not experienced, the differences are huge.
    – Selkie
    Sep 5, 2018 at 15:32

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