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I had asked whether users are expected to know the answer to their question a priori in order to know whether their question is on-topic?

This was in response to a moderator saying that the "whole point" of declaring that my question is off-topic and "not programming-related" was the fact that the API with the functionality whose existence I had inquired about did not exist. (Figuring out whether such an API exists was the entire point of the question.)

However, every time I have asked about this reasoning—whether through comments, posts, or flags—moderators have deliberately ignored me without ever addressing this crucial question.

This is extremely frustrating.

Why are moderators shutting down questions and unwilling to discuss the policies they apply in good faith? What am I expected to do when I do not understand what the policies are?
I thought I was supposed to come to Meta to discuss the policies, yet nobody seems willing to.

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  • 1
    @Downvoters: I'm trying to discuss a serious moderation topic in good faith, and your downvotes and attempts to shut down every such attempt are only frustrating me and making it difficult. If you don't like the fact that I'm trying to understand the rules, What else do you expect me to do? Am I not supposed to come to Meta and ask about them? Why are you just downvoting without any attempt to help me improve anything?
    – user541686
    Aug 28, 2017 at 21:56
  • 10
    Looking at your other thread, it seems quite clear to me that the other answers explained why it was closed. So there's nothing to discuss with diamond moderators. Aug 28, 2017 at 22:03
  • @NicolBolas: But I am not asking why the question was closed. People had multiple reasons for closing the question, and I tried to address everything that I could through subsequent edits. The rationale I am specifically asking about -- and have been unable to resolve because I do not understand it -- was the reason Cody Gray provided for the question being off-topic, which I copied above. That is the question that nobody is responding to.
    – user541686
    Aug 28, 2017 at 22:05
  • @NicolBolas: I mean the first line, which I had bolded: "whether users are expected to know the answer to their question a priori in order to know whether their question is on-topic?"
    – user541686
    Aug 28, 2017 at 22:07
  • 1
    And where was it suggested that users are expected to know this? Can you link me to where Cody actually said that? Aug 28, 2017 at 22:07

3 Answers 3

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This continual fit-throwing about your having a question closed is getting pretty ridiculous.

Yes, I chose to largely ignore your first Meta question. Why? Three reasons:

  1. I had already explained my rationale regarding the closure to the extent I felt it necessary to do so in comments underneath your question. There wasn't much more I thought I needed to say.

  2. I especially felt like nothing more needed to be said because it was very obvious to me that you were not really interested in learning more about what I thought and why, but rather in disagreeing with it. I can't put it much more eloquently than BDL did, in a comment from your last question:

    It doesn't seem that you are really seeking for input how to improve the question, but instead just try to argue why the five close voters are wrong. I already regret having tried to explain my reasons. It the same situation why a lot of people don't want to leave comments under the question anymore when downvoting or closevoting. – BDL

  3. Finally, because I had already expressed my opinions and you had already expressed disagreement with them, I wanted to let other members of the community weigh in with their thoughts. That's the whole point of escalating an issue to Meta. You do this because you want the larger community's opinion, not because you want to have a conversation with the same people who voted to close your question.

And this really brings us to the larger point, and the direct answer to this question, namely how you are supposed to contact individual moderators: you aren't.

You simply aren't entitled to have a direct conversation with every individual who votes to close one of your questions. Perhaps it's reasonable to ask clarifying questions, or even ask them to reconsider, but that had already occurred in the comments on the question.

A significant reason that you aren't entitled to this is because of the acrimony that results, and these two Meta questions are excellent examples proving this is not merely a hypothetical concern.

There is a process surrounding closure on Stack Exchange sites, and with over 100k reputation, you surely already know what it is. If you don't, you can look at the help that's provided all over the place and figure it out, just like we expect others to do. Here is that process, in summary:

  1. Community members evaluate your question and decide that it needs to be closed (for example, because it is off-topic). They cast votes to this end, and when a consensus is reached, the question is closed.

    Now, you could sort of argue that, in this case, consensus was short-circuited because a moderator (me) cast a binding vote. Except I wasn't the only person who voted to close your question, so it's extremely disingenuous to act like I'm the only person with whom you had/have a bone to pick. I cast the fourth vote, so at best, my vote counted as two votes.

    But even if my vote had counted as five votes, that wouldn't change how the process works.

  2. If you disagree with your question having been closed, then you edit your question to explain very clearly why that closure is erroneous (in this case, why it is actually on-topic for Stack Overflow).

  3. This edit then puts your question into the "reopen closed" queue, where other members of the community can evaluate your question and determine whether it should be re-opened.

    This right here is why you don't need to contact individual users or moderators. You don't need them to get your question re-opened. Anyone can do that; you just need to find five people who agree with you, and you even get the chance to convince them by tweaking your question.

This whole "spoken in his capacity as a mod" issue has absolutely no relevance to anything. I spoke as a person, explaining to you why I felt that your question was off-topic. When I leave a comment explaining my rationale for closing a question, it does not create any kind of "official policy". It wouldn't even create an "official policy" if my opinion was posted in an answer on Meta. The official policies are in the Help Center, documented for everyone to see.

I'll note that your question has still not been re-opened by the community, even after two Meta posts about it serving to harass the users who closed it. The Meta effect is real, and it was not on your side here. That speaks volumes more than words from a moderator.

Acting as if I acted egregiously or irrationally is completely unfair. The sense of entitlement that you're showing is quite off-putting, and merely confirms that I was right to have ignored your first Meta question. There was no way it was going to lead to a constructive discussion.

For whatever it's worth, I was not the moderator who declined your flag on the first Meta question. That arguably would have been a conflict of interest…even though your flag was completely inappropriate by our standards for flags, which is the basis on which it was declined. The flag was as silly as the ones we get on main, where people ask for someone to answer their question. Flags are not to be used to beg for answers from moderators. We are exception-handlers and janitors, not question-answering agents. No exception occurred here: question-closing is a regular process.

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  • Still digesting your answer, but a couple factual notes on specific parts: (1) I was not the one who brought up "in his capacity as a a mod" -- another user did, and I in fact replied that it is irrelevant, and I was just as confused as you as to why it was brought up in the first place. But with the way you wrote this answer, now everyone who reads your answer will think I said the opposite. (2) I never assumed or even hinted that you were the one who declined the flag on the Meta question, though I guess thanks for clarifying.
    – user541686
    Aug 29, 2017 at 5:09
  • Can you clarify this part of your answer: "Namely how you are supposed to contact individual moderators: you aren't." I wasn't asking about contacting any individual moderator -- as you might notice, I did not try to contact you after you declined to reply on the main site. I was asking how to contact moderators in general, i.e. any of them that could reply. Could you clarify whether you are saying users are not intended to have any means to contact mods (specifically mods, not the whole community) at all?
    – user541686
    Aug 29, 2017 at 5:45
  • You contact moderators via flags, when appropriate.
    – yivi
    Aug 29, 2017 at 5:50
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    You only need to contact a moderator for content that requires moderator intervention. That's what flags are for. "I want an answer to my question" is not a valid reason to contact a moderator. I think you're putting far too much weight on what moderators think. The site is moderated primarily by the community—"At the high end of this reputation spectrum there is little difference between users with high reputation and ♦ moderators. That is intentional. We don’t run this site. The community does." When you come to Meta, you ask the community. Aug 29, 2017 at 5:50
  • @CodyGray: Okay, I see. I figured it was reasonable to expect to be able to contact a mod because I had gotten crucified for being (unintentionally) unreachable in a similar situation elsewhere, so I didn't expect SE to have this policy intentionally. Thanks for explaining. (P.S. Unimportant side note about that quote -- I've hated that misleading quote so much.)
    – user541686
    Aug 29, 2017 at 6:02
  • OK, so last comment, now that I've finished digesting: I don't know what sense of "entitlement" you're referring to. The only thing I recall feeling entitled to was an explanation of the reason(s) you gave for closure, which seemed reasonable to me given how much time goes into writing the question. I certainly did not expect that to be "off-putting" (and still do not see how it is); it seems only fair. If you had simply explained what that specific sentence meant, none of this would have happened. But at least you finally explained how mods are (not) supposed to be contacted. Thanks for that.
    – user541686
    Aug 29, 2017 at 6:17
21

There's some context missing...

I'm sorry, but I see absolutely no indication that this question is programming-related, or even unique to some aspect of tools commonly used by programmers. Networking questions like this can be asked on Super User or Server Fault. – Cody Gray♦

@CodyGray: I'm literally asking how to connect() to a particular host when there are 2 different ones with the same IP address (192.168.1.1 in this case). You don't see how this is programming related? – Mehrdad

No. For starters, your question is nowhere near that explicit. But even if it were, that's a networking question, not a programming one. It depends on the implementation of the TCP/IP stack. I mean, the answer you accepted is pretty clearly not programming related... – Cody Gray♦

@CodyGray: So which site should it be on then? – Mehrdad

Your choice. Moderators try not to make official recommendations for other Stack Exchange sites because we are not experts on their scope. – Cody Gray♦

@CodyGray: Regarding your edit -- the accepted answer literally said it is probably not possible to do this via code. What do you mean the answer is "clearly not programming related"? Did you see my first comment on there? – Mehrdad

Let's start with the first chain of events. Cody makes the determination that the question isn't about programming, which a large number of others agree with. His rationale seems sound; the question appears to be more about networking and which network will be chosen, which isn't a detail that you state you're explicitly in control of (you appear to be writing something in user space instead of kernel space).

The issue you seem to take umbrage with is the last remark; you ask if saying that this can't be solved with programming is a fair answer, and... it absolutely is...

If you can actually demonstrate that something is impossible (as opposed to simply not knowing how to do it), then go ahead and post it as an answer.

...but I don't believe that Cody's closure is reacting based on that mentality at all. In fact, the post's history backs up my assumption there in that the closure happened at the start of the chain of events.

Now, to your question:

...[Are] users are expected to know the answer to their question a priori in order to know whether their question is on-topic?

It'd be silly to expect you to know the answer to your question, but we have an expectation of topicality. I admit this falls more on the gray side than anything else, which is why you received correction in the form of the reaction to your original question and follow-up Meta post. Your next step is to take that correction and try to learn from it. You didn't know if your question was on-topic because it was in-between. But that doesn't mean that you should feel bad for asking it, or that you were wrong in asking why, either.

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  • +1 It's too bad I can't give bounties on Meta because this is one of the most well-written responses I've received here, thanks so much for that. The one response I have is that I still don't quite get what I am supposed to take away from Cody's comment that the non-existence of the API is the "whole point" of the question being off-topic? To put it differently, I have edited the question to address all the other issues brought up. But people have still not voted to reopen it -- in fact, someone has since voted to delete it. So clearly people think impossibility itself implies off-topic? Why?
    – user541686
    Aug 28, 2017 at 23:01
  • By the way, this doesn't really answer the question of how I'm supposed to contact mods and why they are not replying... it would be nice if you could add something about that because I'm still dumbfounded at how I'm supposed to reach them when they keep ignoring me. Currently, this is a fantastic answer (again, thank you), but mainly to the original Meta post, rather than to this meta-Meta one.
    – user541686
    Aug 28, 2017 at 23:05
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    It's really not about the mods at this point. We as the community can override the moderators' decision if we feel they took it too far on a post (in certain circumstances), but the community has felt like the action was appropriate. Getting in touch with the mod specifically isn't going to win you anything; he's not the mountain you need to move now.
    – Makoto
    Aug 29, 2017 at 4:48
  • Makoto, that's not my question. What I have been trying to ask since the last Meta post has not been about about how to save that particular question. Please read my question here again if this is not obvious -- that's not what I have been asking; that part was already answered by someone on the previous Meta post. What I have been asking since then (and indeed, 2 comments above right here^) is specifically about the policy Cody was citing. That statement affects the scope of many, many questions on this site, both past and future. (cont'd)
    – user541686
    Aug 29, 2017 at 5:22
  • (cont'd) I've been asking the mods because a mod stated and applied that policy, and I didn't get the impression anyone else knew what he meant by that statement. (No one's answer has explained it so far -- even your answer just tells me "that's not why he closed your question", which doesn't tell me what his statement did mean.) If you do know what he meant by the lack of such an API being "the whole point" of it being off-topic, please do clarify it for me -- perhaps I've missed it. I asked you this above.
    – user541686
    Aug 29, 2017 at 5:27
  • P.S. Makoto -- if you could copy this answer to the previous Meta question, I will be more than happy to accept it (just let me know when you've done so). You've answered that question perfectly here; it's just not the answer to this question. (Alternatively, if a mod might move this, that would work too.)
    – user541686
    Aug 29, 2017 at 6:20
11

We don't know whether the moderators are deliberately ignoring you. Notifications from your comments may have gotten lost in a sea of other notifications, they could be busy with other things, etc. But if they have decided to end the discussion it seems like they've already said why.

The last comment from Cody Gray on your question on Main was:

Yeah, I don't know what else you want me to say.

Which was in response to a comment from you that said:

@CodyGray bump

The last two comments from Martin say:

You are arguing in circles. Cody gave his reasons to cast a close vote...
and I'm not interested in being drawn into a long drawn-out discussion.

The last of which was in response to a comment from you that said:

@MartijnPieters: Still waiting for a response to this^

So first, don't @ users just to remind them of an existing comment you've already pinged them on. Cody is correct that this is rude.

Secondly, I don't think it's worth it to get hung up on one person's exact thought process, even if they're a moderator. You did what you're supposed to do when you don't understand site policy, post a Meta question, and you got some discussion and a few answers. Moderators do keep an eye on Meta so there's a good chance one will chime in if the discussion is about a moderator action but there isn't a way to guarantee that a specific person will answer you (or that they'll keep answering you).

I'm trying to discuss a serious moderation topic in good faith

But your post, while not as insulting as some others, still sounds like you're assuming ill will from the rest of the community. It is unfair to insist that no one is willing to discuss site policy given the amount of discussion on your previous question.

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  • See, this is what's frustrating about Meta. You claim "It is unfair to insist that no one is willing to discuss site policy given the amount of discussion on your previous question." but those are just words you're putting in my mouth, not something I actually said. I said the mods are unwilling to explain their statements and are deliberately ignoring me. This isn't an assumption, this is a plain fact. Cody ignored my question once and I had to bump the thread again. That's why he replied "I did see your comment".
    – user541686
    Aug 29, 2017 at 4:43
  • ...except you don't see that because my "bump" was deleted immediately, so you think he replied immediately. Then he just ignored my questions later. I came on Meta and Martijn again ignored my question here and instead derailed the discussion into whether Cody had spoken in his capacity as a mod, which was totally irrelevant to my question. When I replied to him again, he again ignored the question and said I'm "arguing in circles" without answering. I asked him again and he again refused to answer that question.
    – user541686
    Aug 29, 2017 at 4:44
  • And on top of that, I flagged the post and a moderator dismissed it, again refusing to address the question I had specifically asked the moderators. Now you claim I'm the one not attempting to start a good-faith discussion?
    – user541686
    Aug 29, 2017 at 4:49
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    The whole reason I replied, "Yeah, I don't know what else you want me to say" is because Mehrdad had very rudely replied with "@CodyGray bump" in an intervening comment that he has now deleted. Pretty disingenuous to omit that from the discussion, if you ask me. Aug 29, 2017 at 5:09
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    @CodyGray: "Pretty disingenuous to omit that from the discussion." Wait, isn't that literally what I just said^? And I honestly didn't mean it rudely, it was intended as a friendly "bump". I've seen people say "bump" on threads all the time and this is literally the first time I've seen anyone find it offensive.
    – user541686
    Aug 29, 2017 at 5:11
  • (Correction to my first comment: sorry, now I see why you quoted me as saying "no one". When I said "no one", I meant "no one of the mods", since the context of the whole post was the mods, not the entire site. Sorry for the ambiguity, I didn't realize it until now.)
    – user541686
    Aug 29, 2017 at 5:48
  • @CodyGray - Sorry, I don't know if I just missed it or if it was gone by the time I looked at the thread but your comment made sense to me without it. I've edited my answer to include that (and the similar comment left for MartijnPieters).
    – BSMP
    Aug 29, 2017 at 18:18

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