103

In keeping with a theme I've got nowadays - wondering about moderation and how consistent, even and fairly we apply it - I've run into this scenario enough times to warrant a Meta post.

Take a question for example*:

I have some data in a list that looks like this: [[12, 3, 0, 12], [9, 2, 0, -1]], and I want that data into this format: [(15, 0, 12), (11, 0, -1)] How would I go about doing this?

This normally follows a typical pattern I see:

  • Question has inputs
  • Question has expected outputs
  • Question does not contain OP's attempt or any specific confusions
  • Question gets upvotes
  • Question gets answers from high rep users

So how should I really be treating these? I don't delve into the tag as much as I used to when I first started on this site, so I have no clue if the culture of questions is slightly different than the rest of the site (in reality it shouldn't be, but I have this suspicion).

To add to this, what should come of this? How should we as non-moderators correct this kind of behavior from users who insist on answering these sorts of questions? How can we address issues in moderation inconsistency when it comes to questions nominally like this?

I feel that the convention is well established for questions of this flavor - those that show no effort and are overly broad may be closed as such - but it seems like there are exceptions, gotchas and provisos to this.

*: Hidden directly from view in a very desperate attempt to avoid the Meta Effect.

Python: Shrink list of lists to a list without minimal number of rows

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  • 11
    Downvote and vote to close. Then, if they haven't improved, vote to delete. Jul 27, 2017 at 19:44
  • 4
    @SotiriosDelimanolis: I've already done those things pretty much on reflex. Yet, it seems to happen enough that I'm wondering if there's something that I'm just...missing from it all. More or less I'm also wondering if there's yet another unspoken rule about questions which are posed like that which somehow make them okay.
    – Makoto
    Jul 27, 2017 at 19:45
  • 33
    I don't believe there is. Users just don't know (about the site's policies or their privileges), are greedy (their reputation/badges instead of the quality of the site), or don't care. Jul 27, 2017 at 19:49
  • 11
    This happens in js all the time.
    – Kevin B
    Jul 27, 2017 at 20:02
  • @KevinB: If you could give a sample of how those questions are normally phrased, we could drum up a SEDE query on them and see if we can extract a pattern.
    – Makoto
    Jul 27, 2017 at 20:09
  • @Makoto stackoverflow.com/questions/45311763/… for example.
    – Kevin B
    Jul 27, 2017 at 20:14
  • 9
    In Dutch there's a term "finger exercise", with a meaning not as dirty as it sounds. I see it in the C# tags very often (and am sometimes guilty of it): if a question is intriguing enough for someone to get their hands dirty, they'll spin up a demo project and write a regex/linq query/map/reduce function/gimmethecodez-code. I don't think there's much harm in such questions directly, but given the terms used in the question (namely somewhere about none, other than "combine non overlapping items in list of lists"), I highly doubt it'll ever be found useful by others.
    – CodeCaster
    Jul 27, 2017 at 20:16
  • 16
    Answerer of the linked question here. I usually don't answer simple questions. I close a decent number of questions everyday(active users under Python tag will know) that I can easily answer. But if a question comes up that I find interesting then I would go for it just because I know a decent way to solve it that others may not know. And this shouldn't be limited to just inp/out based questions then, any question where OP could have done some research but didn't should also be counted. Jul 27, 2017 at 20:53
  • 1
    Possible duplicate of What's better: a question with no attempt or with an unfixable/irrelevant attempt?. Well, that question of mine was certainly written with python in mind. Jul 27, 2017 at 21:49
  • 1
    @Jean-FrançoisFabre: I'd almost argue that this isn't a duplicate. Specifically, I'm looking to see if there's some kind of resolution that we as a community can do to address this type of problems in line with how inconsistently we moderate these types of questions in general. I'll revise my question to clarify this point.
    – Makoto
    Jul 27, 2017 at 22:24
  • 2
    I'd say there are other reservations there @SotiriosDelimanolis; reservations which aren't entirely possible to untangle in a few comments. I really need to go in there to hash those out, if nothing else, to make it clear where I stand and to also get a feel on where everyone else stands.
    – Makoto
    Jul 27, 2017 at 22:58
  • 27
    This type of thing happens all over the place, in all different sub-communities of the site. The [regex] tag is well-known for being the worst offender, but as other commentators have indicated, it's widespread on other tags, too. About the only places this does not happen are the [c] and [c++] tags, which—not coincidentally—are repeatedly criticized for being "harsh" and "unloving" on Meta. No, the standards for a good question don't change when you put different tags on it. You already know this. You deal with it by voting to close the question and, optionally, downvoting. Jul 28, 2017 at 6:00
  • 1
    Possible duplicate of What's the appropriate new/current close reason for "How do I do X?"
    – shoover
    Jul 28, 2017 at 14:08
  • 1
    @shoover: That's really not a duplicate to this question, either...
    – Makoto
    Jul 28, 2017 at 14:45
  • 3
    @shoover: This calls out more the inconsistency with moderation, really. I have confidence that I know what I need to do with these questions, but I wonder if there's some way that we can get the rest of users who answer and even tolerate these kinds of questions on the same page.
    – Makoto
    Jul 28, 2017 at 15:51

4 Answers 4

73

As a fairly active user in the tag, I agree with you here. Questions such as these are broad and should be closed as such. They should be down-voted and, if the question asker doesn't improve their question, deleted. And in a perfect world, this would all happen.

Of course, that's not what happens. Questions such as these garner 3-4 up votes and many quick, one-line answers. That's not to say this is what always happens. Sometimes I also see questions such as these handled correctly. But more often than not, the former takes place.

I believe this isn't limited to the tag either. As other users have said, this behavior seems to affect many other language communities as well. Also, this shouldn't just apply to input/output questions, albeit they are probably the most common. This applies to any low quality question that shows no effort or research from the OP.

Why though? Why do people choose to answer questions such as these regardless of the quality or detriment to the site? Obviously there is no one reason, but I believe the most common are:

  • Easy to answer / Greed (for points and/or badges).
  • They're interesting.
  • Ignorance.

Although some reasons are better than others, according to the quality rules and standards for Stack Overflow, they're still wrong and low-quality questions such as those shouldn't be answered.

But as much as I hate to say this, I believe this kind of behavior is ingrained into the Stack Overflow community as a whole. Those questions are now the norm, and accepted. And answering such questions is no longer consider inappropriate. In fact, sometimes users are even rewarded.

I'm not saying this as Mr. Perfect though. I'm guilty of sometimes answering question such as these too. In fact, these kinds of questions were my bread and butter when I was first starting out. They gave me confidence in my abilities, increased my knowledge of Python, and helped grow my reputation.

But I've been trying to do better. Even though it's been hard, I've started to vote to close and down-vote such questions, rather than following my natural urge to fire up a REPL session and post a quick answer. And if I do find a question that I find interesting and just can't pass up answering, I've started trying to work with the OP to polish their question into shape.

I don't think We'll ever be able to get rid of this kind of behavior. It's simply too common and, as I said above, hard-wired in the Stack Overflow community. Now all of this is not to say I'm a strict rule follower. If an answer to a question such as the one you posted is correct, useful, answers a common question, and explains the solution(s) they posted, then I'm willing to give some leeway and sometimes even up-vote. But for most of the questions I see, this simply isn't the case. And the correct course of action is to follow the standard procedure: down-vote, and vote to close.

I do plan to start doing more of that. But if we really want to minimize this problem and keep it at bay, then we'll need other high-rep users who are leaders in their respective tags to get on board and help as well.

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    Such questions being answered by high-rep users also keeps the site quality up in a way(not saying that we should start answering them). If high-rep users stop answering such question and those questions don't get closed or deleted on time then we will start getting answers from beginners that may not be the best and now the impact is double(low quality question+answer). This may result in high rep users answering such question to show that existing answers are bad. And like you said, it's really hard to get rid this of behaviour and will need dedication from users who follow a particular tag. Jul 27, 2017 at 22:20
  • 14
    @AshwiniChaudhary: I disagree somewhat on the "quality" remark. If a terrible question is answered well, then that means that yes we are optimizing for pearls. However, this sends the very conflicting message that it's okay to ask these kinds of questions, and also trains us that there's some kind of extra clause built-in for this sort of question. Worse, this doesn't speak to the unevenness of its application; a question like this in Java would be annihilated whereas it's commonplace elsewhere.
    – Makoto
    Jul 27, 2017 at 22:37
  • 3
    I suppose what I'm looking for, Christian, are patterns to see if we can identify this and potentially nip it in the bud. I don't claim to be perfect either; I did this a lot when I first started on SO, but given recent discussions around mentorship, it makes sense to call this out as a major sore spot. A mentor can't be effective if they don't take this into account.
    – Makoto
    Jul 27, 2017 at 22:41
  • @Makoto I absolutely agree with you there. I just finished reading about the details of the new mentor-ship program yesterday, and this topic is related. I must admit, I've seen this issue for a while now, but I haven't brought this up myself because everyone else in the Python community seemed OK with it, plus it was a easy way to increase rep. In fact, the few times I've tried to leave a constructive comment on answers to such questions, I've received backlash. Regardless though, I hope this post brings awareness to the topic so that we - as community - can start to take more action. Jul 27, 2017 at 22:50
  • @Makoto I don't follow Java but there's big inconsistency in Python and has been there for a long time. Question like this on some other day could have been heavily down-voted but ends up with 5 upvotes on that occasion. I guess the rest of community can take an inspiration from how this is being handled under Java and try to implement it in their respective areas. Jul 27, 2017 at 22:53
  • 5
    @Makoto I also think a big part of breaking this trend has to do with up-voting quality post more. To often I see quality answers fall to the bottom, while quick one-line code only answers shoot to the top. We (specifically in the Python community) need to start up-voting quality answers just as much as quick FGITW answers. The same applies to questions. This ties into a lot of what you said into your answer to Andrew Li's question a few weeks ago. Jul 27, 2017 at 22:57
  • "If high-rep users stop answering such question and those questions don't get closed or deleted on time then we will start getting answers from beginners" - how fortunate, then, that "high-rep users" (over 3000 reputation) are exactly the ones empowered to vote to close, and that doing so takes far less time than writing an answer. "A high-rep user wrote an answer quickly" definitely does not discourage low-rep users from writing inferior answers. First off, if that worked, the "protect question" feature wouldn't be necessary. But also, FGITWs don't even see each other in their haste. Mar 12 at 17:35
36

I don't know about other tags, but unfortunately in the tag there are a handful of high-rep users who jump on all sorts of basic spoon-feeding questions. Call them eager-to-please if you're Being Nice, or repwhfarmers otherwise.

Another aspect is that python is in many places taught as a first language, so there are so many egregious questions that it's a sight for sore eyes if someone can post their code request in a clearly explained way. I think this leads to an unreasonable number of upvotes on otherwise suboptimal questions.

Finally, most of these questions have really simple, few-line solutions. Even if there would be an appropriate duplicate, many people will just throw in an answer and not bother trying to vote to close.

I personally believe that the way to maintain a high signal-to-noise ratio on SO is to put our feet down and refuse to answer questions that show little to no effort and essentially want us to write the askers code. Allowing these posts through will signal to further newbies that such questions are fine. I've on multiple occasions heard from lazy askers that their question was fine since "this other question [link] is also upvoted and answered". That's exactly what we don't want.

So with the above considerations in mind I vote for ruthless peer pressure. Many users have seen me downvote otherwise good answers, and leaving a comment that answering questions like this is not helpful. Some users are open to such feedback and will try to adjust their behaviour, some don't. They often comply in the specific post where I call them out, but carry on with their activities on new questions. Note that I usually only downvote answers of this kind that would've fit in a comment.

One problem with handling these posts is that some necessary actions are somewhat against official site mechanics. I downvote answers that I feel are harmful for the site in the long run, and many people disagree with my assessment that "this answer is not useful" covers this case. On very basic questions I sometimes answer in a comment, because that's more than enough space. This again conflicts with the general guideline of not answering in comments. But giving full answers to trivial or effortless or RTFM questions will hinder roomba and lead to the impression that Stack Overflow can be used as a tutorial site. This is most certainly not the case and this is not something we would want to happen.

Also note that using "too broad" as a reason for closing simple code requests is again something that is not officially recorded, and many users frown upon.

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    It should be noted that even leaving comments on questions hinders Roomba. More than 1 comment prevents Roomba from deleting questions which are score = 0 and > 365 days old (and some other criteria). There are, currently, more than 610,000 such questions which are not deleted.
    – Makyen Mod
    Oct 28, 2017 at 4:17
  • @Makyen the problem is that part of those posts are proper niche questions needing an answer that just went below the radar, and only the rest is crap or answered in comments. I guess we could start cleaning these up one-by-one via comment flags (I mean the blatantly useless ones). Time for a new hobby? ;) Oct 28, 2017 at 9:04
  • 1
    An individual can cause most of them to be Roomba'd by downvoting, as the 30-day Roomba doesn't care about the number of comments. A large percentage of them are downvote worthy. But, we shouldn't downvote just to Roomba the question. If a question is worthy of being downvoted independent of it's Roomba status, it's reasonable to do so.
    – Makyen Mod
    Oct 28, 2017 at 9:18
  • 4
    However, IMO the real solution for those questions is to change the criteria for the Roomba task such that instead of looking for question age > 365 days and # comments <2, it should look for question age > 365 days and age of newest comment > 365 days. The point of the Roomba task is to RemoveAbandonedQuestions. The fact that a question has > 1 comment doesn't indicate that the question's not abandoned, but the fact that someone has "recently" posted a comment does indicate that the question's not abandoned.
    – Makyen Mod
    Oct 28, 2017 at 9:20
  • @Makyen you're right, I forgot that there's a 30-day check for non-closed questions. Anyway, downvoting these in order to roomba isn't that bad: these posts aren't closed yet so they can't be delvoted, and any rep change due to downvotes would not be permanent. Of course I don't mean mob-downvoting largely upvoted abandoned posts; I have 0/1 score non-answerable posts in mind. Oct 28, 2017 at 14:57
  • 1
    "Also note that using "too broad" as a reason for closing simple code requests is again something that is not officially recorded, and many users frown upon." The thing about this is that even tasks that are solved with relatively simple code, can be "too broad" in that they logically consist of multiple steps (and OP hasn't attempted to identify those steps, or figure out where the sticking point is). This seems to be especially the case in Python, because of the power and simplicity of the language; this may have something to do with why OP notices the problem with Python questions so much. Jul 1, 2022 at 11:33
  • @KarlKnechtel yes, one might argue that if the answer is "please read a tutorial" then the question is too broad. But in reality these "too lazy to learn first" and "won't RTFM" questions have very specific scope and very focussed answers. So it's usually a stretch to close them as too broad. Jul 1, 2022 at 19:53
  • @Makyen I wholeheartedly agree with your suggestion, btw. The corresponding feature request on MSE appears to be meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/333477. Mar 12 at 22:24
  • @KarlKnechtel That's really not the same suggestion. In that MSO post, what is being suggested is to ignore comments altogether. I don't really feel that's appropriate. OTOH, I do feel that it should ignore any comments which are > 365 days old. Basically, change the requirement to > 0 comments that are < 365 days old.
    – Makyen Mod
    Mar 12 at 22:47
  • I think the conclusion from that post (and a follow-on) is that there are very few old questions that would be kept alive purely by new comments, and that checking comment age would make the query much slower. Mar 12 at 22:56
-6

One problem may be that "too broad" is a rather unintuitive way of saying "I'm closing this because you show no effort to solve the problem".

Perhaps people would be more willing to close such questions if there were a "close" reason that is more pertinent, like "because there is no visible effort to solve the problem".

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  • 5
    No effort is a reason for downvote, not for closure, you may be interested in this meta post Do we need a close reason for zero-effort questions?
    – Tensibai
    Sep 24, 2019 at 9:32
  • 1
    I see. That question has one answer that says that closing is the right thing to do, and it got at least more upvotes than downvotes, so I'd say this is not undisputed. If downvotes are encouraged, why are they penalized with a -1 on reputation? Sep 24, 2019 at 9:58
  • 3
    Well, downvotes on answers cost reputation, not on questions. This is mostly to avoid "cheating" by downvoting freely 'competitive' answers of yours.
    – Tensibai
    Sep 24, 2019 at 11:30
  • 1
    And to answer the other part: if the lack of effort ends up with something unclear or too broad, there's those reasons to close. But lack of visible effort is not too broad by itself.
    – Tensibai
    Sep 24, 2019 at 11:33
  • 1
    There is a common misconception with close votes, in that most interpret them to mean something entirely different than what they state. This is the fault of the close vote system itself, and unfortunately day in and day out there are odd side effects from the flaw in design. It isn't surprising to see that you interpret it this way, but that wasn't really the intent. Also contributing to this issue is the fact that all of the discussions, history, and outlook are firmly anchored at MSE which almost all users are unaware of.
    – Travis J
    Sep 25, 2019 at 20:03
  • 1
    For example, here are two high profile MSE posts relative to this topic: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/210840/… and meta.stackexchange.com/questions/184154/…
    – Travis J
    Sep 25, 2019 at 20:04
  • I really disagree with the logic underlying justifications for downvoting questions but not trying to get them closed and deleted. What purpose does it serve to keep around questions that everyone agrees to be "unclear" and/or "not useful"? Why hold on to queries that are redundant with existing resources, and can't be explained more clearly? For that matter, isn't "unclear" already an explicit close reason? I thought the point of Stack Overflow was to host useful information so that others can find it with a search engine and be helped. Why host things that aren't searchable? Jul 1, 2022 at 11:37
  • @KarlKnechtel I was speaking about closing, not downvoting. The post is old; the close reason "too broad" has been renamed to "Needs more focus". Jul 1, 2022 at 11:44
  • I'm fully aware of the renaming. I was making a general observation about the other meta post, and I take your side that closing is the right thing to do. Jul 1, 2022 at 11:52
-40

There is nothing "too broad" about this question, be it in Python or another language. It's a very specific and clearly stated question, which does not require writing a whole lot of code to answer. Total opposite of "too broad".

Perhaps they are treated differently in Python in terms of up/down votes because solving simple tasks like that in Python is more enjoyable than in Java or C++.

Sure, one can vote to close for some far-fetched reason and be grumpy for the rest of the day about the question. Or one can write a couple of lines using list comprehension and move on, enjoying a brief flashback to CompSci 101. I'd probably do neither, but if I had to choose, the second option looks better. Life's too short.

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    Why does voting to close make you grumpy for the rest of the day? Can't we just vote to close for a not-far-fetched reason and move on? Doesn't shorten my life any. Actually, it shortens it less than if I had to write a CompSci 101 tutorial in an answer box. Jul 28, 2017 at 6:03
  • 35
    Just because you think doing other people's homework for them is fun for you doesn't mean that it's quality content, or helpful for...anyone. The opposite is the case.
    – Servy
    Jul 28, 2017 at 13:54
  • 13
    I believe "too broad" is what people use to prevent these zero-effort things from getting answered. We used to have "Lacks Minimal Understanding", but that was taken away. So the community looked for other ways to prevent the rep farming. Jul 28, 2017 at 14:26
  • 4
    @S.L.Barth: This has nothing to do with rep farming. Hell, I've answered a question about comments in Java which could be construed as both rep farming and perfectly on topic for the site. This is just about getting some consistency with how we handle these kinds of questions. It's ridiculous to see that some people think this is perfectly fine, and others think it's not. We need to get on the same page.
    – Makoto
    Jul 28, 2017 at 19:45
  • 1
    @CodyGray - I think it's fine that people are downvoting this answer (because it kind of implies that answering very low-quality questions is OK), but the point of this answer is that we can't vote to close for a not-far-fetched reason, because there aren't any such reasons available to us! Honestly, I consider "off topic" less far-fetched than "too broad", but neither one is a truly appropriate choice, and going with "off topic" makes you jump through more hoops before your vote is cast.
    – John Y
    Nov 24, 2017 at 14:26

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