201

Since the documentation has launched, I have noticed that there are many entries are being written by users with low or no tag score. For example, the C++ preprocessor section, some of the posts were written by users with C++ tag score of 0 or 1. Some of these posts are just factually incorrect, but the editing process makes them difficult to correct quickly.

It would seem logical to hold documentation to a higher standard than questions, and thus, it would make sense if users required a minimum score in a tag before they were allowed to add documentation for it. This would ensure that the user has at least a minimal amount of proficiency in the subject, and should produce higher quality documentation, requiring less editing.

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  • 29
    seems legit to me. Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:07
  • 56
    I like the idea, but I see a couple potential pitfalls: 1st, what about a relatively new user who just wants to document things, who might have been working with C++ for years before they join SO. 2nd, what if I've mostly answered Java questions, but work with C++ every day, and want to document some of that. These cases might not actually exist in the wild, but something to consider.
    – Ava
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:11
  • 39
    Those cases do exist in the wild. I'm one of them.
    – Justin
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:14
  • 9
    Actually it would be better if users with a specific minimum tag score could only review and approve the docs because a user who doesn't have high score might be just a new user, although he might actually be very much experienced. Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:17
  • 2
    @Aeolingamenfel re 1) I'm sorry for them, but if you are new to the language, you are probably not adequate to document it. As you said, you are "new" to the language, how can you properly teach someone when you haven't grasped it yet?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:18
  • 8
    @Aeolingamenfel It's certainly possible that some people with relevant expertise might not pass the extra restriction and not be able to provide documentation. But, they have a recourse - just answer more questions in that tag. If you can't be bothered to answer questions, it seems unlikely you'll be bothered providing (good) documentation. Also, I'm not advocating for an extremely high bar - eg. even less than it takes to get a bronze tag badge (maybe like 25 seems reasonable). Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:19
  • Also, editing would still net them rep, so they're basically getting rep for being wrong and getting corrected.
    – davidism
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 19:08
  • 3
    This is already covered largely here: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/328703/… tl;dr don't worry, the staff is aware of it
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 19:08
  • I think what should happen is that you require a short quiz in a tag before you can add a topic.
    – fosslinux
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 20:59
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    A major question is what about low traffic tags? It can be extremely difficult to get a high score in a tag that has few questions and answers.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 14:21
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    @jpmc26 you need at least 500 questions in a tag to even create documentation related to it and 5 users with at least tag score of 1 (I think that the tag score should be at least 20).
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 16:26
  • 1
    As an aside, might I suggest that for users with a relatively low tag score in a tag they attempt to provide documentation for, they be temporarily locked out of providing documentation for that tag after X posts and/or edits are rejected by reviewers? If locked out, they would have to increase their tag score by a specified amount before they regain the ability to suggest documentation for that tag. [I'm thinking 5 rejections for lockout, and an increase of 50 or 100 to regain documentation privileges.] Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 23:44
  • Users with a higher tag score would either be exempt from this, or have a larger "tolerance" for rejected posts/edits before being locked out. Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 23:46
  • 1
    Very good Idea! Reputation and Tag score should be used to grant access to some extended SO features. otherwise they (reputation and scores) are useless. If some one have experience in c++ but no reputation, he should answer some question. Questions are still the main Goal of SO.
    – devops
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 16:27
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    @Aeolingamenfel There's also cases where documentation covers something another site does, like Vim and LaTeX. Until recently, my rep on those specific sites was higher than it was here, but I don't think I have much a tag score for either of those. So even with some level of demonstrated knowledge on the topics on an SE site, I still wouldn't be able to document them if a tag-score requirement was implemented Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 13:59

10 Answers 10

85

Some have suggested that we allow anyone to edit or add docs, but we restrict reviewing to higher rep users or some other criteria.

This doesn't work, for several reasons:

  1. Reviews are capped. Sooner or later, you'll review too much crap and be forced to stop for a day.

  2. Making experts review the crapwork of non-experts is not an effective way to keep experts engaged. God knows I've basically given up on the C++ tag, and that was only after a day.

  3. It drowns out contributions from people who know what they're doing. Having to dig through tons of crap to find stuff worthy of actually being on the site is not helpful.

Just as with crap questions, crap Docs.SO additions should be stopped before they enter the system. We shouldn't design a system where people have to dedicate themselves to acting as a filter.

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    Yeah, can we just require a silver tag badge in C++?
    – Barry
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 20:43
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    Plus incredibly frustrating to see incorrect proposed edits approved by somebody with 100 rep.
    – Barry
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 20:48
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    @Barry Even a bronze badge requires a fair bit of effort. I still don't have it for Python ... though maybe that's just because those people don't vote.
    – o11c
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 3:43
  • 3
    @Braiam I don't think that's what o11c was saying. A bronze badge is a pretty steep requirement, though. It might be worth setting a slightly lower bar than a full bronze badge.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 14:20
  • 2
    @jpmc26: Why? Bronze isn't that steep. There are almost 3000 bronze badge holders in Python. Even for a low traffic tag like Lua, there are over 50. 100 upvotes over 20 questions is not a high bar; it simply requires effort and the desire to answer rather than ask. Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 14:25
  • 3
    @bwoebi: Why make the system so complex? What good is it for people who's knowledge is questionable to contribute or review? Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 14:53
  • 3
    @bwoebi: "Well, it's better than having experts review everything." Or, you could just stop people who haven't been proven to be knowledgeable from editing or reviewing. It's that simple. Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 15:01
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    @NicolBolas I guess there are quite some topics though where you may be an expert, but not have any reputation. I've never answered a network programming related question on SO, but I have gained much experience/understanding in that field. Now, do you want to exclude me, because I've never happened to encounter a network programming question in the specific domain I'm most knowledgeable of/tag I'm typically watching (PHP - only 82 qs with both tags)? … the concepts of network programming are for large parts also language agnostic and I'd consider myself able to edit review some of these.
    – bwoebi
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 15:09
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    @bwoebi: "Now, do you want to exclude me, because I've never happened to encounter a network programming question in the specific domain I'm most knowledgeable of (PHP)?" Yes. You have to prove that you're knowledgeable before we give you privileges. Yes, that means we will exclude some people like yourself. But for every person like you, we will also stop 100 people who don't know what they're talking about. That's an acceptable sacrifice. Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 15:11
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    @jpmc26: "Most good answers attract around 2 upvotes." Your own rep and posting history suggests you maintain an average of +4 upvotes per post. So where are you getting this idea from? "It's not that easy." It's not supposed to be easy. It should not be easy to be able to contribute to Docs.SO. Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 15:46
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    @NicolBolas It's a rough guess based on what I observe. My average is skewed by the fact that a lot of my answers have been sitting around accumulating a few upvotes for a long time. (A few of them have even slowly accumulated a fairly high total, but that's over the course of months or years.) It's not uncommon for me to sink a couple of hours into each answer, either. Of course it shouldn't be easy, but it also shouldn't require hours daily for months or years of waiting to start contributing. It's also an extremely high bar for a low traffic tag, for that matter.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 15:59
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    And I'm not sure where you get that average of 4, unless that's really heavily skewed by a few highly voted ones. I just glanced at my answers, and out of 8 pages, almost 5 pages of them are answers at a score of 1 or lower; I have over 6 pages of 2 or lower. I should also mention that for all that effort, I have a single bronze badge. Obtaining a tag badge of any level requires an enormous amount of effort, unless you want to encourage people to throw out tons of crap answers on crap questions in hopes of getting upvotes quickly.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 16:06
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    @jpmc26: "And I'm not sure where you get that average of 4" Divide your rep by 10; that's an approximation of the number of upvotes you have. Divide that by the number of posts you've made. That's your average upvotes per-post. The fact that you have 6 pages of <=2 votes is balanced by your first few pages of highly voted posts. The average is not the median. Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 22:17
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    @Knu I see that as a feature. It's also a great proxy for both knowledge in a tag and effort.
    – Barry
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 12:00
  • 2
    Shit like this is ridiculous. Making a trivial editorial change to the highest voted example by a user with a score of 3 in C++ with 800 rep total. That change will likely net him several hundred rep.
    – Barry
    Commented Jul 26, 2016 at 16:05
33

I'm answering because I don't have enough rep to comment, which is also why I care about this.

it would make sense if users required a minimum score in a tag before they were allowed to add documentation for it

I see what you're concerned about here, and I totally agree with you that users with no proficiency in a tag should not have this much power they have now. Although I don't agree with completely taking their ability to make contributions.

In my case, I never really used my account for actively participating in SO (so I got no score), but now I have the chance to participate in Documentation about things I work with everyday. And there's probably cases where a user has points in something else but the ones they actually know a lot about (they just never saw the need to participate in topics already established).

So why don't we meet halfway? Let users with no tag score contribute, but require the acceptance from someone with enough score.

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    "So why don't we meet halfway? Let users with no tag score contribute, but require the acceptance from someone with enough score." That's not "halfway"; that's the way things are currently (save for the fact that reviewing is something just about anyone can do). Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:25
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    @NicolBolas The point is that make it so that reviewing requires a tag score even though suggesting doesn't
    – Justin
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:25
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    "I'm answering because I don't have enough rep to comment," -- that's a bad reason. Pay your dues. Learn a few skills. Show us we can trust you. Then leave comments and contribute to Documentation. Rep is the quality filter that StackOverflow is built on. It's what keeps it from being a second rate "Yahoo! Answers". Rep works.
    – Hack-R
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:27
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    @Hack-R That header is completely unnecessary on the post. This is a valid answer with or without it
    – Justin
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:30
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    @Justin By the header I take it you mean the opening sentence. I think it gives an important context to the user's answer and it is very relevant to the discussion, hence my earlier comment.
    – Hack-R
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:32
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    @Hack-R It's not important to this user's opinion. It doesn't matter whether this user has 5 rep or 100k rep, his opinion matters the same either way. So the first sentence is not necessary. I upvoted this not because I agree with the first sentence (which doesn't even make sense to agree with the first sentence) but because I agree with this user's opinion
    – Justin
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:34
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    @Justin: "The point is that make it so that reviewing requires a tag score even though suggesting doesn't" See my answer. Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:42
  • @Juston / rgoliveria - why are you interested in providing documentation on a topic, but not interested in answering questions on it? It seems like a strange motivation to me. I also agree that adding more review tasks is pointless - many reviews never get done, because there aren't enough users with high enough reputation willing to do them. Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 19:05
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    @MuertoExcobito "there aren't enough users with high enough reputation willing to do them". So why would they add documentation about basic stuff like "how to exit vim" if they're not even willing to review it?
    – rgoliveira
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 19:17
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    @MuertoExcobito Because Documentation is intended to be highly collaborative. On the main SO, if I know a better answer, it first has to compete will all existing answers, whereas in Documentation it could be appropriate to just edit it in (maybe with version syntax). I envision Documentation to be volatile, unlike the main SO, in which it can take years for a better answer to finally rise to the top. So my contributions are more likely to help others
    – Justin
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 19:26
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    @MuertoExcobito personally I would love to find questions on a saturated tag that are at a level I can answer so I can earn some rep. What I find is that those types of questions are quickly closed as dupes of an ancient, well-answered question. I would still like to contribute to documentation on the things I do know even if I am not the foremost expert on the tag. Docs is not all about code, it's also about the explanatory text for the code, which in some cases could use a lot of work to make more learner friendly. Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 19:30
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    Can y'all just let the first line of this answer be? It doesn't hurt anything, and there's no need to fight over it.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 19:59
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    Here's an articulate, considerate new user with a perfectly valid case explaining very well how a proposed solution would be better. It literally qualifies for everything we could ask. Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 22:11
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    I've been around SO for years now. For many reasons, I decided a while ago that I'd no longer participate in Q&A here. Although, I do still participate in other SE sites. The fact is I have a lot of knowledge to share on several topics that I cannot commit, nor propose, because I'm not active on those tags for Q&A. It's a pity we've tied docs to main site so tightly. It's a different kind of site, with a different kind of target user, yet we've said "You can't participate in this part of SO unless you've participated in that cesspool part over there."
    – RubberDuck
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 17:08
  • @RubberDuck: "You can't participate in this part of SO unless you've participated in that cesspool part over there." The point of the commitment process is to make sure that there is sufficient interest among people who we know actually knows something about the subject, and who are active enough to be sticking around for the foreseeable future. You don't participate on SO, so we cannot tell whether you're genuinely knowledgeable and reliable, or just a fly-by-night sort of person who'll disappear in 3 days once the shininess has worn off. Commented Jul 26, 2016 at 14:29
8

I think tying Documentation to the main Stack Overflow rep too hard will be disadvantageous; especially in niche topics we want people who don't normally contribute to Stack Overflow to be able to add valuable information to a tag.

The problem you're referring to is exacerbated by the fact there's so much low hanging fruit. I expect that in a month the ability to add meaningful edits will simply require expertise, and in that sense will self-filter. It won't stop people writing junk, but they won't have so much opportunity to go "me first" with it.

Further, Stack Overflow doesn't have a problem with low quality answers. Our close queue is almost totally focussed on bad questions, not bad answers. The answers are getting dealt with. There's a lot less motivation to post documentation than there is to post a question, so IMO there's not much need to make the rules stricter. As waters calm, I think this is going to start to become more obvious.

I do think Documentation needs a better review process, though, to make it easy to point out repeated sections, make commentary more visible and so forth.

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  • Niche topics like what? You need a minimum of 500 questions asked on main and 5 users with at least 1 tag score to be able to open a new tag on Docs. I say that anything that gathered 500 questions isn't too "niche".
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 14:04
  • @Braiam Not so much niche tags but niche sections. If the main tag has <2k questions, I'd expect a lot of sections to have at most a handful of contributors expert in the subject.
    – Veedrac
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 14:32
  • Well, and what's the problem with that? Documentation should be a by-need basis, where the official/available documentation flatters, since Docs.SO isn't a replacement but a complement.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 19:36
  • 1
    @Braiam Because we stop high quality contributions. That's only worth it if the problem is sufficient. The problem is a lot worse on the main site and we still don't block it there, so this feels like an entirely disproportionate reaction.
    – Veedrac
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 20:14
  • Which are these "high quality contributions"? Where are the examples of people that would be left out if this is put in place? I prefer having little good by restricting who can participate than a crap-ton of crap because we allowed everyone.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 20:16
  • 1
    @Braiam As I've mentioned, it's early days yet. But I have seen a lot of great contributions on the main site from one-off or two-off contributors, so I've no doubt these experts exist. Barring them from contributing on Documentation would be a meaningless slap in the face. Sadly I don't have any examples to link to right now.
    – Veedrac
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 6:33
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    The answers are not getting dealt with. You just don't have a nice queue which tends to collect them. In C++, one common error is writing while (!somefile.eof()). I have no idea what a similar error is in python, but this error is pretty simple to explain -- checking a flag before running the code that sets it. There are hundreds of answers around that make this particular mistake, most will not receive downvotes and comments because the asker accepted the answer without ever getting input from an actual expert, and the experts are mostly looking at unresolved questions.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 22:10
6

First off, I love that we as a community have come to equate answering questions (well) with expertise in a technology. If you asked me to select authors to write about C#, this would be my dream team. As it turns out, many of these folks already write blogs, articles, documentation and books about C#. If you want to read about C#, don't come to Stack Overflow Documentation. Instead go to their user profiles and see what else they've written. We honestly don't mind.

If we were angling to compete against that sort of writing, we'd probably want to limit Documentation to gold badge holders. (And we'd probably have to offer them a salary too.) So anything short of that standard is a compromise of quality. Thankfully, we pursing examples that look a little different.

Going back to the original vision of Stack Overflow:

The idea that you have all these experts waiting in the wings to do stuff is an illusion in my experience. There's really just a bunch of amateurs muddling along trying to do things together. The people that are truly experts are too busy to even help, right? And if the experts are too busy to help, what difference does it really make if there are experts at all. Because the whole point of this endeavor is helping other developers, and whether you're an expert or not, if you have no time to help, you're not really contributing to the solution.

Fundamentally, the idea behind both Q&A and Documentation is the same: harness the moments of downtime that most programmers have to create something useful. (As an aside, we are extraordinarily lucky that some experts have stepped up to help out over the years.) It's certainly possible that the skills needed to write good examples are the same as the skill needed to answer questions. But I think they are notably different. If nothing else, Documentation is designed to be more collaborative than Q&A.

Instead of limiting contributions to people who clear an arbitrary (if rational) bar, we are taking the opposite strategy of allowing everyone to contribute. Instead of vetting authors and only picking the best, we are swiping Wikipedia's procrastination principle: we'll won't solve problems that have not yet arisen.

I don't see any obvious problems with the preprocessor topic. Presumably one or more of these edits fixed them. I notice that one low-reputation user with no C++ answers proposed a small, but useful correction. If edits were limited by tag score, that change would likely have had to wait. Instead of limiting contributions, the solution in almost every case ought to be to encourage corrective edits.

5

A book I read several years ago, there was a part where explained that 3 things are needed for a good teacher:

  1. knowledge of the topic,
  2. the methodology appropriated to teach it and
  3. the vocation to teach.

With writing documentation I say the same: you need knowledge of the topic, how to document the knowledge in a clear and concise manner and vocation to write it. The third cannot be measured by any means in a objective way, the only way to know if you have the second is when you actually write something, but the first!

The first one can be adequately measured, right now. So I propose that you first have to demonstrate that you know something before trying "to teach" something and asking for a minimum participation in the relevant tag should be mandatory to allow people to submit and review documentation. This would allow the resources to be alloted where they are needed instead of trying and failing to guard the floodgates.

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    Knowledge of the topic is not so clear cut. For example, if you want to know about the C++ object model, I know that stuff. When it's legal to access bit patterns, aliasing rules, structure layout, etc, I know that stuff. But put me in front of anything more than the simplest of template metaprogramming, and I'm lost. It's just not my particular field of expertise: I can use tools made by others, but I don't know the details myself. My point being that, while we have a way to measure broad knowledge of a tag, we don't have one that works at the level of a Docs.SO topic. Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:28
  • @NicolBolas yea, but what has a guy that never wrote a C answer, submitting a hello world and get it wrong in the process?
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:34
3

I like the the idea of the minimum tag score, but is another problem that has yet to be addressed.

I have been actively learning Angular2 has it has been in beta for a few months now. Angular2 is desperately in need of some documentation in lesser explored areas, but there aren't a lot of questions (12,674) compared to Java (1,109,141) and JavaScript (1,176,313).

So for newer technologies that would be more in need of documentation there would be only a handful users with, for examples, a tag score of 100. Simply because there would yet to be many questions.

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  • 1
    The lack of good external documentation is a reason why such tags need more scrutiny, not less. The last thing we should do is make a bad situation worse. Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 17:08
  • I agree with the scrutiny. I didn't argue that point. I am pointing out that there will be very few people to participate with newer technologies. Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 17:50
2

You're seeing users with low or no tag score contributing because there are many people that are reticent to contribute to Q&A but have valuable things to contribute. And while yes, there are those that really don't know what they're doing, we can't break that bridge to engagement for those that do.

What you nailed here is the fact that the review and editing process needs some work, and we're working quickly to make that part of the system feature complete. I want to fix the problems systematically and evaluate the efficacy of each thing we implement. I don't want to 'fix' things by welding a door on the front of it, because that's only going to hide the fact that we still have work to do in order to produce a massively collaborative and massively open product that's amazingly friendly and easy to engage with.

That is the goal, and it's hard, but I think we're in a position to pull it off.

A system that's open, welcoming, without a bunch of unintuitive rules that prevent many from fully engaging with it, that is also of extremely good quality.

Shutting the doors like that is basically giving up on that very lofty goal, and we're nowhere near the point of doing that.

All of you have very clearly identified the areas that we need to improve, please let us improve them, this is our highest priority and we're working very quickly. Each improvement is going to show us how much we need to expect out of the next.

Putting a gate on it at this point is like breaking out a nuke when you notice a spider - yeah, it'll surely solve the problem, but ... a tad overkill :)

1
  • 5
    I dunno. Pretty sure there are spiders who'd easily survive a nuke.
    – hairboat Staff
    Commented Jul 26, 2016 at 13:05
-1

Putting up barriers to contribution only helps in the short term to guarantee that contributions during this nascent time are up to an acceptable standard. This comes at the cost of preventing contributions from the edge cases where a person has something valuable to contribute but lacks the required rep or score to do so.

However, the process of building up documentation through contribution and review is inherently iterative and it is this very fact that makes it acceptable for almost anyone to contribute as long as the review process is good.

At this early stage there are probably more bad contributions than good ones, but these provide a valuable starting point and given enough time and iteration through review the good documentation will rise to the top and become established.

Once something is well documented it is unlikely to be edited again soon, meaning that once a good foundation has been established there will be less to review overall.

That said, as previously mentioned, all of this is predicated on good quality reviews and this is where the barriers should be placed because allowing anyone to review contributions undermines the whole process.

In order for the iterations to move towards improving the quality and accuracy of the documentation the reviewers absolutely need to have proven their expertise in the particular subject.

-3

Could we meet "in between"?

  1. Everyone can contribute at an "example" level.

  2. Structure (new topics, tags, subtopics) can be maintained and modified only by high-rep users. So shared sections (remarks).

  3. Let everyone review, but give different powers (like has been on SO for a long time) to different users.

-3

No, the direction should be exactly the opposite: the doc writing "privilege" (as if working for free would be a "privilege") should not depend on the tag score. Instead, writing good docs should be rewarded by tag score.

The elemental interest of the SE is to encourage as many free work as it can. Instead of rejecting others contributions on unclear reasons, even without examining their quality, they should be motivated to contribute as many as possible. For the correct handling of the bad posts there is our sophisticated moderating/review process. Taking part of it requires a minimal reputation, but contributing posts doesn't. This model made the SE great, and this is to follow also on the Doc SE.

It should be also possible, that somebody contributes only docs, without taking part in the other activities of the site. Writing docs are an independent contribution as writing answers, there is no reason to bind them together.

Here is my other post in the matter with my other arguments.

4
  • 3
    I think this sounds reasonable. It's not the low-rep user, but the reviewing system that's turning documentation into a mess at the moment. Also, almost daily I see proof that high-rep is not a guarantee for high-quality posts. Is it because high-rep users go lazy and still get votes because of their rep? I don't know. Conversely, I frequently see wonderful answers by low-rep users. It's the reviewing system that should make it work. Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 20:40
  • @GertArnold Thanks! I suspect, here comes another problem: it is hard estimate the worth of the partial contributions between the original poster and the editors. Unfortunately, the SE weren't ever really famous from its sophisticated algorithms.
    – peterh
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 20:49
  • @GertArnold actually, reputation is not shown to the voters, just the very small gravatar.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 22:22
  • 1
    @Braiam I referred to Stack Overflow. But if you want you can easily see someone's rep at SE Docs. Anyway, rep and post quality are not necessarily related. Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 7:05

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