-8

First Posts and Late Answers audits draw chiefly from posts that have been downvoted and deleted (with various exceptions for corner cases). All that such audits expect are simple downvotes, and a reasonable case can be made that almost all answers that have been deleted do deserve a downvote, whether or not their deletion is warranted.

Unfortunately, almost every one of these answers has a comment, often an auto-comment from Low Quality Posts, explaining the reason someone thought the answer should be deleted. And quite frequently this is badly wrong, flagrantly violating Your Answer Is In Another Castle guidance by deleting an answer in review that should only have been downvoted, or deleted by 20k users, not 2k users.

This wouldn't be so much of a problem except for one crucial thing: these audits are being deliberately presented, misleading comments and all, as the very models of proper moderation, the things FP/LA reviewers are being tested to try to live up to. So we are training junior site members that it's OK to routinely flag and delete answers because they are very terse (with or even without that fatal link). And when they hit 2k, they happily go and Recommend Deletion on all kinds of answers, completely unaware that they're violating official site policy, because they're instead following "official" site policy as expressed by "obviously correct" comments on actually deleted posts that the site software really did choose as audits.

How can we avoid spreading misinformation this way? Should we stop showing comments after FP/LA audits are revealed to match the way we hide them before? Should we add a special heuristic to audit selection to try to filter out the specific very common case of a link-based answer that's mistaken for link-only?

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  • Would these comments be flaggable in the meantime? The ones that simply suggest that the answer be improved almost certainly aren't but the auto-comments all explicitly state that the answer isn't an answer. Could they be considered un-constructive?
    – BSMP
    Commented Jun 18, 2017 at 22:55
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    @BSMP: I've tried that in the past and got nowhere. Commented Jun 18, 2017 at 23:00
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    flagrantly violating "Does that mean these answers should forever hang around the site? No, not necessarily - if it turns out they're just not that useful, they should probably still be removed"
    – jscs
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 11:47
  • @NathanTuggy - I'd say that just because you had two flags declined on comments two years ago, I wouldn't use that as an indication that none of these should be flagged. I still stand by my answer from before that, and if these comments are completely out of place and people flag them, I delete them. I know that other moderators feel the same way. I can't speak for the moderator who handled those, but maybe they didn't think it was worth the effort to remove them. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 14:23
  • 2

2 Answers 2

16

So we are training junior site members that it's OK to routinely flag and delete answers because they are very terse (with or even without that fatal link). And when they hit 2k, they happily go and Recommend Deletion on all kinds of answers, completely unaware that they're violating official site policy, because they're instead following "official" site policy as expressed by "obviously correct" comments on actually deleted posts that the site software really did choose as audits.

Bollocks, I say.

Presumably, these are the best examples that you could cherry-pick in support of your argument, yet it is quite clear to me that the first two are non-answers in need of deletion, completely consistent with our official policies.

This isn't just a link-only answer, it's a link to another question on Stack Overflow, which suggests that the question itself is a duplicate and should be closed. The answer should never have been posted. It should have been a comment or flag on the question, with a link to the proposed duplicate. If two questions have exactly the same answer, to the extent that no additional explanation is needed, then those questions are duplicates.

But even if you disagree with that, I don't see anything here that redeems this from being a useless, link-only answer in flagrant violation of the "Apples" guidance.

Verdict: NOT Answer

Furthermore, the phrase that constitutes the bulk of that "answer":

You could either modify the image pixel by pixel and it's a quick fix.

is utterly nonsensical. It starts out by saying "either", but there's never a second choice presented, so there isn't an "either"-"or" situation at all.

Besides, the question asks why the code they have isn't working to change the background. "Modify the image pixel by pixel" is not an answer to that question; it's an answer to a different question, one that was never asked.

Similarly, this isn't an answer to any of the questions that were asked. It might be tangentially relevant, or even helpful information, but it is not an answer and should therefore have been posted as a comment. Whatever you feel about it, it doesn't belong in the answer box. Not because it fails to meet some arbitrary length threshold, but because it is completely at odds with the question.

Verdict: NOT answer

This answer is the only one that might possibly be construed as an answer to the question being asked, but honestly, I don't have any problem with training users to delete garbage like this.

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  • 3
    "that's not the official guidance" I very much disagree with that. But everyone interprets that "apples" advice differently, which is what makes it so laughably worthless. "contradicts current mod behavior" Also disagree. I've flagged a lot of answers like this and had mods delete them with >98% success. I also see a lot of these such answers that have been deleted, either by the community or by moderators. (And preemptively: if the community is doing this, but moderators aren't, perhaps it's time for community moderators to get on board with what the community wants.)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 14:43
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    Also, don't think it's arguable in this case. You have to read past the question's first line. Specifically, you have to look at what questions the question is actually asking. That "answer" doesn't answer any of them. This business about "a plausible attempt" is errant nonsense, and I've talked about that at length before. We don't judge attempts here, we judge content. Is it an answer? If so, good. If not, delete. It doesn't matter what my intent was or that my heart was in the right place when I posted it.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 14:44
  • 3
    Good, then the system is working correctly. Knowledgeable users are removing non-answers. If that's "obvious", I couldn't be happier. I'm not sure why you are unhappy.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 15:29
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    This kind of flies in the face of this Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 15:39
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    @NathanOliver Which is a good thing because "answers that are merely wrong don't necessarily deserve deletion" is taken as "all attempts to answer a (not the) question is OK even if the given answer is complete bullshit" - we need to somehow fix that misunderstanding.
    – SE is dead
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 16:31
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    @servy That is absolutely a mischaracterization of everything I said in this answer.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 17:33
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    I'm not going to re-explain it. I already took the time to write out why I don't think these are answers to the questions that were asked, other than the fact that they managed to get posted in a box labeled "answer".
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 17:43
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    It's interesting to me that no one ever seems to try to defend answers like these except by resort to "the rules". Not for any actual value they hold.
    – jscs
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 23:53
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    And seriously, I just lose all respect for people who make this argument: "their answer fails to properly answer the question. That doesn't make it not an answer, it makes it an incorrect answer." I mean, I don't even know what to say to that. With that logic, everything you could post would be an answer. 43 would be an answer. Should we not delete that because it is merely an incorrect answer? That's just too stupid for words. The answers discussed are not answering the question that is asked. They are answering something completely different. They are irrelevant to the question.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 11:04
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    No, @Servy. You disagree with my answer and think it's wrong. That's very different from the answer having nothing to do with the question and/or responding to a different question than the one that was asked. "Heck, why even have rules at all if you're advocating flagrantly disregarding them and knowingly violating them just because you want to?" Absurdist, straw-man arguments like this makes me think that engaging in discussion with you is a waste of time. You're either a fool, or you're playing like one, and neither is worth my time.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 14:03
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    As for the "43" example, I used it because of limited space. Consider instead a question tagged [windows] where an answer is provided about how to do something in Linux. Let's even be charitable and assume it is the same "something". That's…an "attempt" to answer, as you construe it, but this is not an answer by any reasonable definition of the concept because it doesn't respond to the question that is being asked. Now, reviewers still have to use their brains. If the answer leads with, "This can't be done on Windows natively. You need to install a Linux emulator and do…" then it's an answer.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 14:04
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    Oh boy. You must have reading comprehension problems. I'm finished with this; my words are having no useful results.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 14:06
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    You say "wrong" where I say "it doesn't respond to the question that is being asked", and then you act like I'm the one making no sense. Well, I said I was finished. I should probably stick by that promise.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 14:09
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    Wrong cannot be a subset of irrelevant to the question because if the answer is irrelevant to the question, we cannot yet assess its correctness. If you ask me, "What color is the sky?", and I say "apples", then that answer is not wrong. It is not even wrong, mainly because it is unfalsifiable. It is responding to a question that was not asked. On the contrary, if I said "red", or "there is no sky", or "the sky has no color", then those answers could be deemed wrong because they are actually responsive to the question. Basic epistemology.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 14:16
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    @Servy aslkfjklsdjlkfj is an answer, because, hey, I'm attempting of answering your argument since english isn't working. An answer that doesn't answer the question, is not an answer to the question asked, therefore it should be deleted. It's even in the help center: Answers that do not fundamentally answer the question may be removed. This includes answers that are: [...] not even a partial answer to the actual question
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 15:51
12

I cannot agree more with Cody Gray's examination, but I want to add this:

The purpose of the "castle guidance" is to warn against becoming a thoughtless reviewing robot who runs a mental regex and votes to delete anything that has a link, without considering the other content.

It's not a stone tablet encouraging conversion into another kind of braindead rule follower, who insists that anything in an answer box that has more than just a link should ipso facto be preserved.

Junk posts are, and should remain, subject to removal at any time.

This is pretty clearly stated:

Does that mean these answers should forever hang around the site? No, not necessarily - if it turns out they're just not that useful, they should probably still be removed...

As for the "downvote, don't delete" dichotomy:
Downvotes are for "not useful" posts.
Posts that aren't useful get in the way when searching for solutions.
Removing these un-useful posts (in favor of useful ones) makes the internet a better place.
QED.

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  • 5
    This, this is what I was saying. Crap answers (even if they are answers) should be deleted. That's how you maintain quality: removing anything that doesn't meet the quality standards.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 12:47
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    This is simply wrong, and is attributing something to Shog's post that is has never said. If you think a post isn't useful then you downvote it. If you think a post isn't even trying to answer the question then it merits deletion. Deleting posts that answer the question that you simply think aren't useful do not merit deletion, and you're fragrently violating SE's rulse to claim that a post that is an answer "isn't an answer" just to delete it.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 13:18
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    @Servy meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/350908/…
    – jscs
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 13:19
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    @JoshCaswell That's simply saying that these posts may possibly merit deletion for some other reason, through some other mechanism, that isn't "not an answer", but claiming that they're Not An Answer is still wrong.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 13:22
  • I was careful to refer to deletion through review in opposition to deletion by 20k users. Or is there no distinction in your mind? Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 14:33
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    Why should there be a difference? This is the whole reason we have review queues: so the community can take out the trash. The system already handles whatever difference there should be: it takes twice as many (I think?) "recommend deletion" votes through review to actually delete something than it does delete votes by 20k+ users.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 14:46
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    @CodyGray Why should there be any difference between two entirely different mechanisms designed to do two entirely different things? Deleting things for being Not An Answer should be done when things are Not An Answer. 20k user delete votes aren't (just) for deleting posts for being Not An Answer. As a 20k user you're given the privilege of voting to delete an answer that is an answer that you feel is so egregiously bad that it needs to be removed from the site because it's actively harmful. Users without 20k don't have that privilege.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 15:20
  • @NathanTuggy My reply would just echo Cody's comment above. I don't see why the rules should be different in review vs. for 20kers.
    – jscs
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 15:49
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    The point is that making these kind of semantic distinctions just seems like a navel-gazing waste of time. Why do we need to indoctrinate users into the "rules" of Stack Overflow when they already understand the larger picture: cleaning up the site by removing stuff that shouldn't be here. We have guidelines for the types of answers that should be removed, but these aren't an exhaustive list, and that is by design. Honestly, I don't understand why Servy et al. think we don't give <20k users the privilege to vote to delete garbage. It certainly seems like we do, and if we don't, we should.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 16:03
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    No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying I'm not familiar with the "rules" that you and Nathan seem to be referencing. I haven't found such "rules", and the ones you've pointed me to so far, I interpret quite differently.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 17:34
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    @NathanTuggy Maybe your concern is that reviewers are not using the technical expertise that we expect of 20kers? That could be something we need training on: "if you're not able to judge whether or not this is good, then please hit 'Skip'".
    – jscs
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 17:40
  • 1
    Honestly, I can't remember what it says in the queue for <20k users because I haven't been one of those in a while, and I don't have a sock puppet account that I can use to check it out. But I was pretty sure all you see is "Recommend Deletion", nothing about "not an answer" except for the guidance of what types of posts you might want to "recommend deletion" for. But like I said, maybe I'm wrong here. But I'm getting a little bit pissed off that my argument keeps getting mischaracterized as acknowledging that these are answers, but should be deleted anyway. I said quite the opposite.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 17:42
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    @NathanTuggy Your argument, then, is that users with ~2k rep can't be expected to know how moderation works...which leaves me wondering why you think I should give a tinker's cuss what you, a ~2k user, have to say about how moderation works. I'm not going down that road; instead I'll reply. Yes, the privileges are different; the 2k one is substantially weaker. It takes a flag to even get the post into review, and then six votes to delete. Why that should not be considered training wheels for the 20k privilege is entirely lost on me.
    – jscs
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 12:36
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    @JoshCaswell ...you could also add that post deleted by 2Kers from review can be unilaterally undeleted by author (and yes this regularly happens). Wish that all who pretend LQ queue deletions are same as those by diamonds / 20Kers knew how much a difference this makes
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 13:08
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    @Servy per my observations author undeletion happens frequently, I guess they somehow find out (for example tracking rep changes or comments notifications one can easily get to their deleted post and find prominently bold-and-red link "undelete")
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 20, 2017 at 13:33

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