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I asked a question about my Python unit tests producing an unwanted stack trace about 12 hours ago. I've got 4 votes to close already, all of them being "unclear what you are asking". Somebody even downvoted me. Not a single one of those made an effort to tell me what was unclear.

I think I was being perfectly clear. I clearly stated what the problem was: that my tests are passing fine, but I get an exception traceback in my test output. Clearly the two people who answered my question understood what I meant.

This type of moderation is, in my opinion, getting out of hand.

Avoiding exception traceback in Django test console output

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    Your initial revision kind of invited for that vote but your subsequent edit at least helped it to survive the close vote queue: stackoverflow.com/posts/44576919/timeline. So I would say moderation worked, you improved your question and now has a chance to garner up votes. The single down vote is a low price to pay.
    – rene
    Jun 17, 2017 at 9:45
  • @rene So exactly what was wrong with my initial revision? You honestly did not understand it? Jun 17, 2017 at 9:52
  • Now I have two downvotes to a perfectly good question. And so far no one has managed to tell me what was unclear. Jun 17, 2017 at 9:58
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    not the one who downvoted but you could probably blame meta effect for that..
    – Suraj Rao
    Jun 17, 2017 at 9:59
  • @suraj Yeah I know about the meta effect. If anything I would expect people to do the complete opposite. Meaning they would read my question and come to the conclusion that it's a perfectly clear one and that it does not need to be closed. Boy was I wrong. Jun 17, 2017 at 10:01
  • Sorry I wont be able to tell you more on this one..I dont have experience in python/django to make out. I am refraining from voting either way..
    – Suraj Rao
    Jun 17, 2017 at 10:03
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    @dan-klasson Before you made the last edit (18 min ago) the question said "What's a good way to avoid this from happening?". This doesn't make it clear what you want to avoid from happening. It seems like you are getting the expected result (trying to test for an exception -> exception gets thrown and shows in the output). After changing it to "What's a good way to avoid having this exception and traceback from appearing in my console output?" it now becomes perfectly clear what your actual problem is.
    – Keiwan
    Jun 17, 2017 at 10:04
  • @Keiwan But I also said my problem was that I got that output. Sure, it wasn't completely clear, but it should be obvious to anyone that such an output after running a test is not expected behavior. And somebody downvoted me after I made that edit. So even after I made it completely, fool proof safe, some douche downvoted me. Jun 17, 2017 at 10:07
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    Yep perfectly clear now. Presumably you made that edit in response to the down and close votes? Hard to argue that the system isn't working exactly as intended, we'd just ideally hope the original downvoters come back and reconsider. But without any explicit feedback you managed to turn an ambiguous question into a clear one, off your own back. Which you could've done initially, and avoided any downvotes. Thus ends today's lesson :)
    – Clive
    Jun 17, 2017 at 10:08
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    btw I do not mind to be downvoted, I mind to be downvoted without reason and by somebody who can not be considered a peer. It is done by people with credentials from different fields that the questions. That is a peer review process turned on its head. Like a geneticist lecturing matehmaticians about number theory...
    – ipavlu
    Jun 17, 2017 at 10:11
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    @dan-klasson Just to bring attention to it, the timeline for your post shows that it entered the close queue before your first edit (when presumably it got the first close vote). It picked up 3 more close votes in the review queue (which happened after your edit), but was kicked of the queue by 3 Leave Open votes. So the reviewers seem to be split as to whether it is still unclear or not. Jun 17, 2017 at 10:49
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    Oh.. another day, another question poster who wants 'other people' to read the rules/policy, 'other people' to wast.. spend time on untangling their question and 'other people' to make suggestions and comments. Why does it always seem that it's "someone else's" responsibility to refine questions until they are useful? Surely, the OP can do the refining work? All we need is some sort of 'flag' or 'counter' that signals something is wrong with a question, and the OP an then do the work of fixing it - no need to waste time on comments, just move on to a good question:) Jun 17, 2017 at 11:21
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    This kind of questioning is getting seriously out of hand. Ridiculous how many users had to be occupied with banging this lousy lazy question into some kind of shape when they could have spent that time answering questions from users that made an effort. The review queues are under serious pressure to keep up, next logical step is to just get rid of them and stop wasting all this time on unsalvageable crap from users that don't give a damn helping anybody else. Jun 17, 2017 at 13:30
  • While I completely agree with your general sentiment, @HansPassant, I'm not sure it's fair to tar this particular user with the brush of "don't give a damn helping anybody else", considering the nearly 300 answers he's posted with a generally positive reception.
    – jscs
    Jun 17, 2017 at 14:31
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    I fingered this kind of questioning. I talked about users. But sure, it is a rather good example of the pattern, we do need to base our meta commentary on real examples. That experienced users fall into this pattern as well is in itself a very serious issue, broken windows all over the place. Jun 17, 2017 at 14:37

2 Answers 2

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Let me answer this then to point out the obvious and in response to your comment:

So exactly what was wrong with my initial revision? You honestly did not understand it?

No, I honestly did not understand it and I still don't. But that might also be caused by the fact that I don't do python, let alone Django.

What your initial revision simply failed was the context that is needed to quickly grasp where that stack trace was coming from or how readers of that question could quickly reproduce your result. Instead you decided to run into a room full of people and you started yelling: We're going down, we're going down! Don't be surprised that the others respond with: wait, are we on a plane? A submarine? An elevator?

Don't ask me to create or assume the context you're posing your question. That you are already 100% clear about the context is understandable because you're probably staring at that code and output for the last hour or so.
I have not. I just had breakfast and a cup of coffee.

So, yes. That initial revision was unclear for casual readers, close votes and down votes were warranted. The quick moderation helped as you responded with an edit that helped to prevent closing from the close vote queue. In the current revision the question is not only clear for you but also clear and useful for future visitors, which is by far more important.

This type of moderation is, in my opinion, getting out of hand.

Meh, I think it worked, it got improved, despite that you disagree it needed that edit. I can live with the friction that might cause this now and then.

As the question is now in good shape maybe some of the close voters might notice and retract their close vote. Otherwise the votes will age away in 14 days. It would be a miracle if the down votes get reversed as I don't believe much down voters revisit the posts they voted on.

You're free to disagree with all of this, in the end we got a better question, which is all that counts.

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  • I clearly stated in my initial revision that the tests were passing just fine. The stack trace were clearly coming from the Django framework. It was perfectly clear that everything was fine, but the problem lied in the output of the test console. You don't need to stare at the code for hours, the problem isn't with the code, the problem is with the test output. Two people already answered the question and they knew what I was referring to. Jun 17, 2017 at 11:04
  • You already admitted you don't know the Django framework, and you still talk about casual readers? This is not casual and my question is directly related to doing tests in Python. Jun 17, 2017 at 11:05
  • I try to explain why the events took place as they did. Don't blame me for tying to explain that you, you're barking up the wrong tree, multiple trees, actually.
    – rene
    Jun 17, 2017 at 11:09
  • Kudos for that, but so far you haven't explained anything. You are clearly defending the nitpicking of other SO users that make no sense. I've already stated that two users understood my question just fine and answered it, not a single person who voted to close bothered to explain why they didn't understand the question. And you are no different. All you managed to do is hide behind, "I don't understand Django". You don't have to understand Django to understand my question. Jun 17, 2017 at 11:13
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    The initial revision of that question was awful. How much more explanation do you need? Kudos back.
    – rene
    Jun 17, 2017 at 11:17
  • I clearly stated that the test was passing just fine. But the problem being the test output. How is that awful? It was pretty freaking clear wasn't it? How can you not have understood that? Jun 17, 2017 at 11:27
  • Which test was passing fine?
    – rene
    Jun 17, 2017 at 11:28
  • The test I was referring to. I clearly stated that in my question. I proceeded to say that the problem was that "my test output looked like this". Jun 17, 2017 at 11:30
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    So I need my magic ball to see a test you're referring to?
    – rene
    Jun 17, 2017 at 11:31
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    The test is now in the question, yes. Not in your initial revision. Which kind of started all this nonsense.
    – rene
    Jun 17, 2017 at 11:35
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    This was way before the vote to close and the downvotes. Not so. The close review (and thus the first close vote) began before your edit. stackoverflow.com/posts/44576919/timeline
    – Rob Mod
    Jun 17, 2017 at 11:43
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    I do do Python and I do do Django, and the initial revision was missing an MCVE and was unclear.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jun 17, 2017 at 12:19
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    @dan-klasson: you didn't include the test. How are we supposed to know what you actually tested? You eventually did, including the crucial detail that you are using the Django test client. That may be obvious to you, but that's not the sole method of testing you can use. Note that you are using the self.assertRaises() wrong; that line is entirely redundant and doesn't test anything. The upvoted answer is partially right.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jun 17, 2017 at 12:34
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    @dan-klasson For a VERY similar analogy, it's as if you had asked this meta question with no link to your actual question. "Hey guys, what is wrong with this?" is not a good question, if we don't know what "this" is.
    – Patrice
    Jun 17, 2017 at 13:49
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    @dan-klasson: assertRaises() with one argument returns a context manager. It is that context manager that does the asserting on __exit__. Your code ignores the returned context manager altogether. We close questions that are unclear as early as possible; they are put on hold and can be re-opened again once clarified. See How long should we wait for a poster to clarify a question before closing?
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jun 18, 2017 at 16:44
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You know when you go over to your teammate's desk to ask about a problem, and you launch into it, and they blink a couple of times and say "Wait. Go back. What's the context here?", because they're working on something else entirely and haven't touched the code you're working on for three weeks?

The same thing just happened to you, here on Meta, and in your SO question. You've made the very human, very easy to make mistake of forgetting that everyone around you is not thinking about the same things that you are. I do this myself constantly. I'm probably doing it right now.

Just slow down a bit before asking; have someone else read what you've written; ideally put some space between composition and posting. Do your best to consider what your problem statement looks like to a complete stranger who has nothing but the literal text you've written.

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    And do some rubber duck debugging and explaining. Jun 17, 2017 at 14:46
  • Maybe this answer is better balanced than mine is.
    – rene
    Jun 17, 2017 at 14:48
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    I thought your answer made the point well, @rene; I just found myself inclined for whatever reason to offer a gentler phrasing. /shrugs
    – jscs
    Jun 17, 2017 at 14:50
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    Looking up gentler ... nope, not in my Dutch phrase book...
    – rene
    Jun 17, 2017 at 17:08
  • The only mistake I made was that I forgot that many SO users would rather nitpick than help. The answer already had two answers, a third made a comment asking for more info. Clearly they understood the problem just fine. Not a single person asked me what I meant. If you can't be asked to take a millisecond to understand the problem, then hit the back button. Jun 18, 2017 at 11:17
  • I clearly stated the test was passing, but the problem was the exception and traceback that I got in the console ouput. How anyone who has ever written a test could not comprehend that is truly astounding. Jun 18, 2017 at 11:31
  • Also, nobody here seems to have a problem with the current revision. Yet they still downvote my question. That's a blatant violation of the rules they claim they follow. It cannot get more hypocritical than that. Jun 18, 2017 at 11:56
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    You're welcome; so glad you're taking feedback into account. Best of luck!
    – jscs
    Jun 18, 2017 at 15:10

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