-30

If a question is significantly edited (we'll say for the sake of argument, a delta of 500 added characters in the diffcheck), the vote to close votes, specifically for "unclear what you're asking", should go to a "limbo state". The votes would still count to close, but unless the voter re-checks the question and verifies their vote, it would still be in "Limbo". The voter can also in this time retract their vote, which would either count as a vote to re-open, or a point off the votes counter. If the limbo vote is ignored, then it will still count as a vote to close, but for each "limbo vote", the number of votes required to re-open a question will go down by one, with a minimum of 2.

This means, that If a question was asked, and 4 people put in a VTC, and the asker significantly edited the question, then unless those 4 people ratify their votes again, those 4 votes are now in limbo. only 1 more vtc is needed to close the question, which is later provided. Since the question has 4 limbo votes, the number of people needed to re-open a question is 5-4=1, but 2 is the minimum, so the asker needs 2 votes to re-open.

I feel this is needed because currently the question system is a "plug n' forget" system, where people will vote and forget about a question. This in no way shape or form encourages any author who knows how the system works to actually edit the question. The route that brings the answers will always be to Delete, Edit, Repost. This is a bad system for SE, but it happens anyway. I feel that some system along these lines would be incentives for authors to edit their questions instead of hacking their way around the system.

46
  • 3
    The votes are given on a 1st impresstion. It's the OP in charge to make their question clear in 1st place (before posting). Editing the question will bump it up to the active page already, and other users may decide to reopen it (in case it was closed), or to upvote. I don't think we need this. Jun 16, 2017 at 13:29
  • 6
    How is removing votes on unclear questions going to do any better job of encouraging people who ask bad questions to actually edit them into good questions? The people that don't know that they're supposed to edit their questions still won't. The only thing this would do is allow the abusive users who find out about this rule to make superfluous edits whenever their questions attract close votes, or simply make close voters use different close reasons to prevent such edits from removing their votes.
    – Servy
    Jun 16, 2017 at 13:33
  • 5
    @tuskiomi Well as mentioned, it's the OP who's in charge to give more than a book cover in 1st place. "why would I ever edit my question if I can delete and repost, and get much more attention this way" Because that will get you question banned at all quite quickly. Jun 16, 2017 at 13:33
  • 1
    @tuskiomi Your proposal does nothing to stop the problem you're claiming you're trying to solve though. People still can and will delete and re-post even if edits sometimes invalidate close votes.
    – Servy
    Jun 16, 2017 at 13:34
  • 3
    @tuskiomi That's assuming that the user is even online to see that their vote was removed inappropriately, and it doesn't prevent the author from making the edit again after 1-4 of the votes are re-applied, before any more can come in. Next consider that many people are casting lots of close votes, and all of a sudden you're asking people to go around re-applying tons of close votes every day just because people keep deleting them by applying edits that don't actually fix the problem.
    – Servy
    Jun 16, 2017 at 13:51
  • 2
    No, this doesn't make it any easier to reopen a question. It makes it harder to close close-worthy questions, but no easier to reopen them. How is "giving people a reason to tell people not to re-post questions" going to stop people from re-posting questions? We already have reasons to tell people why they shouldn't re-post questions. Clearly the people that do so don't care, hence why they're doing it.
    – Servy
    Jun 16, 2017 at 13:51
  • 1
    @tuskiomi Making a vote "not count" until someone goes and re-casts it is removing it. If it "counts", then there's nothing to re-apply, and this isn't doing anything, if it doesn't, then all you're doing is saying that these edits should remove all of the the votes. Re-casting a close vote that is removed wouldn't in any way make a question harder to re-open; it would still take the exact same 5 reopen votes to reopen the question. Not re-casting a removed close vote would make the question harder to actually get closed, not easier to get reopened.
    – Servy
    Jun 16, 2017 at 13:58
  • 3
    @tuskiomi May be it's a different situation at SE Electronics, but Stack Overflow is already swamped with close worthy stuff and misconceptioned OP's flooding in here. Anything to slow down the closing process of bad questions would be counterproductive. Also merely adding 500 characters isn't a sign for improvement (think about nonsense edits like "gzugzuigzuesrrtfzseatzuzt808ziopzuizfzut78tzuguk") added by OPs just to receive their questions your proposed state. Your proposal belongs to the limbo. Jun 16, 2017 at 14:16
  • 1
    Wouldn't it be easier to notify close voters of the first edit after their close vote (possibly the first substantial edit, for some reasonable definition of substantial)? Jun 16, 2017 at 14:33
  • 3
    Considering the reopen queue is routinely empty... Not sure what you are trying to solve. Any edit that is significant enough to send your question to the reopen queue will get enough people seeing it. In any case if you have 4 close votes for unclear and edit your question so it is clear, the fifth vote should just never be cast
    – Patrice
    Jun 16, 2017 at 16:34
  • 1
    Close voters aren't responsible for what the OP does with their question after the fact.
    – BSMP
    Jun 16, 2017 at 19:18
  • 1
    @tuskiomi what needs to be solved is that we have users who disregard our rules. They get banned. Seems like it is solved. Your proposal won't stop people from doing that. People will STILL delete and repost, just to "go faster and not wait for the reopen". In any case, if your edit makes a question that isn't closed, clear. It shouldn't be closed. 4 CTV for unclear, if your question then gets edited to be clear... it shouldn't end up closed. And IF it does, it's because it is likely STILL unclear, which means all votes should be valid.
    – Patrice
    Jun 17, 2017 at 2:05
  • 2
    Overall your proposal just means that the close votes (of which we don't have enough used already) will be easier to overturn with rubbish edits. Good edits should ALREADY help with getting a question that is closed reopen. I don't see why we need to give more power to edits here, without regards of anything.
    – Patrice
    Jun 17, 2017 at 2:06
  • 2
    @tuskiomi hmmm no, it means that the situation will happen regardless, so to make changes ONLY to prevent this situation is pointless. There is no value in making the whole close vote system weaker, just to MAYBE prevent something that will likely still happen anyway. And you don't see a problem, or the inconsistency? With your system, as soon as a user gets ONE CV for unclear, he will rush to post the most rubbish edit he can, just to be able to push the vote in limbo. It will encourage MORE rubbish edits, if anything. You want to prevent bad behavior, but I see a risk for MORE of it.
    – Patrice
    Jun 17, 2017 at 2:44
  • 2
    @tuskiomi Oh I did understand that. I also understood that if I DO NOT go in and revote (because you know, I have a life and better things to do than look at rubbish questions, which take too much of my time already), then the closed question needs one less reopen vote. How is that not invalidating the vote in some way?
    – Patrice
    Jun 17, 2017 at 2:49

1 Answer 1

10

I doubt that the size of the edit correlates much with its usefulness w/r/t close reasons. The loophole -- big enough to drive a truck through -- here is that 500 words on the topic of "you fascist mods, my question is obviously clear" would trigger your proposed system. Or even just the quite common "here's the codes: <350 lines of irrelevant IDE boilerplate>" Edits have got to be evaluated by some entity that knows what they mean. They can't be automatically taken as improvements.

Further, I'm not interested in having to babysit my close votes. When I'm hanging around and casting votes to close, I'm actually here to answer interesting programming questions. The unanswerable ones are in the way, but closing them isn't something I actually enjoy; I'd rather a hundred times to answer them.

The more time the system makes me spend managing and fussing over my moderation privilege like this, figuring out the precisely correct way that we mark bad posts this week, the less time I'm going to spend on the site solving problems, because it just becomes a drag and I'd frankly rather clean out the garage or something.

It's not my responsibility to come back six times to every post to help someone with a programming problem through every stage of diagnosis, formulation, and description before I can even get to the fun part of finding a solution. If someone needs help, the very least they can do when asking for volunteers to help them is to write a clear and understandable problem statement.

Adding administrative work to people who are already just trying to help is just spit in our eyes.

7
  • spit in our eyes... So would you rather users administrate their own question??
    – tuskiomi
    Jun 16, 2017 at 15:57
  • @tuskiomi As mentioned the OP's are incharge in 1st place. Who else?? Jun 16, 2017 at 16:31
  • @πάνταῥεῖ I guess I'm not sure what Josh means by administration? to me, opening, closing, deleting, and editing are all admin responsibilities, and surely we don't want to give that to the askers...
    – tuskiomi
    Jun 16, 2017 at 16:36
  • none of those things are "admin responsabilities".
    – yivi
    Jun 16, 2017 at 17:01
  • 4
    "Administrative work" -> the bookkeeping overhead of having to come back to every vote that I've cast to make sure it hasn't been rendered pointless by a garbage edit. @tuskiomi
    – jscs
    Jun 16, 2017 at 17:51
  • @JoshCaswell you're the third one I've had to explain this to.. I'm really starting to think I explained this poorly. I didn't say anywhere that the vote didn't count under any circumstances. you misunderstand. when I use the word "limbo" I don't mean in any way "removed" or "passive". I mean to say that these people can take another look at this question's edit and go "yeah, that's still crud" or "hey, that's a pretty good edit". All votes still count before and after the edit
    – tuskiomi
    Jun 16, 2017 at 18:38
  • 9
    Your proposal makes it easier for my vote to be contradicted/overruled. There's no way that a crap question, evaluated by five individual experienced users, should be re-openable by two, just because the OP graced us with a new irrelevant paragraph.
    – jscs
    Jun 16, 2017 at 19:54

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .