-49

Please don't make this question about my initial rollback of an edit. That rollback was almost immediately undone by another user before the moderator was ever involved, and I was happy to let it be. I am asking here about the final result, which is the reopening of an extremely disliked question by a moderator, whose actions wouldn't have the same effect had he been a regular user.

Moderator Matt has involved himself in a matter that I thought was closed. Here is his comment. If you read my reply then it is clear that I am furious, but I wondered what others thought of the situation.

I think the question is clearly a very poor-quality one. It was ugly and difficult to read in its original state with incorrect markdown and indentation, and even after an edit it was a trivial matter of how to code a counter.

It was closed after five down votes and deleted after three delete votes, but has now been reopened after the OP and one other had their votes boosted by moderator privilege.

The mod also removed all of my comments which explained why I had made the rollback, which was to keep the down votes and related comments relevant. Those comments are also now gone.

The result is that an inconsequential question with nine down votes has been resurrected in the face of popular opinion. Of course none of the people who made the original down votes can now vote again, so a question that is disliked and useless has been kept afloat by moderator intervention.

I think this is an abuse of privilege to an improper end.

18
  • 22
    So you want to prevent improvement of a question so that comments complaining that the question is poor aren't invalidated? Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 18:24
  • 23
    What's inappropriate is rolling back good edits.
    – Oded
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 18:26
  • 18
    I can't see why you rolled back the improved version. The point of the edit was to improve, not to keep downvotes and comments relevant. Comments should be used to help the OP being their question on topic and to help guide them into making their question clearer. They can then be discarded once the OP has done as asked. You don't rollback edits to keep downvotes relevant.
    – Bugs
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 18:28
  • 2
    @Bugs: I hope people will focus on my question, and not whether my initial rollback was correct.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 18:29
  • 5
    As for your implied unilaterally undeleted and reopened (implied by you pointing him out and calling his actions abuse). Not so, Matt was not the only person involved in the two actions on that post.
    – Oded
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 18:29
  • 7
    @Borodin I think you may have had a better reception had you not created focus around a bad decision to rollback. Matt as a moderator does look to be trying to be fair with a post that had some bad decisions made against it. That said the question does look poor so downvote and vtc. Don't rollback an edit though.
    – Bugs
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 18:40
  • 9
    "The mod also removed all of my comments ..., which was to keep the down votes and related comments relevant" - In the help center it say: "Edits are expected to be substantial and to leave the post better than you found it", you did the exact opposite
    – Alon Eitan
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 18:45
  • 2
    @AlonEitan: Yet again, this question isn't about my original rollback, which was revoked before the moderator became involved. I am asking only about the ridiculous sight of a post with twelve downvotes being reopened by a moderator, leaving the original voters no recourse. I am also concerned that he saw fit to delete all of my comments that explained my choice while writing a new one of his own admonishing me. Please keep this on topic.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:24
  • 3
    @Oded: "As for your implied unilaterally undeleted and reopened (implied by you pointing him out and calling his actions abuse)" That is also nonsense. You invented the term "unilateral" and have pressed it upon me. What I would say is that, had Matt not been a moderator then the reopening wouldn't have happened (in fact it's doubtful that it would have been undeleted) but I have always made it clear that the OP and one other voted for the undeletion. Assigning such notions to me is obnoxious and unprofessional of you. Please don't do it again to other people.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 20:02
  • 7
    @Borodin: "What I would say is that, had Matt not been a moderator then the reopening wouldn't have happened" Even if that's true (and at this point, it's sheer speculation), that alone does not make the moderator's action "abuse". The whole point of a moderator is to be able to handle exceptional circumstances that a single normal user could not. Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 20:38
  • 1
    @NicolBolas: You're right. What I should have written, and what I meant, is "had Matt not been a moderator then his vote wouldn't have reopened the question". I'm aware that moderators are there to do things that mortals cannot, but as I discussed below with Makoto it would have been plenty enough to undelete the question. Reopening such an unpopular post has left it a derelict with thirteen down votes and just a trickle of close votes.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 20:54
  • 5
    And what about your own question with 24 downvotes? stackoverflow.com/questions/37842561/… Why is that not deleted? Looks like you chose to abuse the system by copying a closed question so you could get around the no answers on closed questions rule. Let he who is without sin, etc ... That being said it is ridiculous that any question below -5 is allowed to survive.
    – JK.
    Commented Jun 11, 2017 at 4:57
  • 3
    Re "I think the question is clearly a very poor-quality one. It was ugly and difficult to read in its original state with incorrect markdown and indentation, and even after an edit it was a trivial matter of how to code a counter.", None of that makes the question unclear.
    – ikegami
    Commented Jun 11, 2017 at 7:28
  • 2
    @JK: What about it? It was a mistake on my part and probably should go. I certainly had no intent to "get around the system", and when it was explained to me that questions are suspended precisely so that the OP may not gather any answers I understood. He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her is about who should inflict punishment on a guilty party, not about whether or not something is considered to be wrong. Or are you trying to say that no one may raise a problem with another's behaviour if they have done something as bad, or worse, themselves?
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 11, 2017 at 16:20
  • 1
    @ikegami: "It was ugly and difficult to read" That doesn't make it unclear? I had no idea you were a Meta roadie as well.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 13, 2017 at 0:46

5 Answers 5

-29

It seems to me that SO needs people who will provide answers. People who put time into questions, in my experience, don't like answering vacuous questions posted as incoherent demands for code.

If it is official SO policy to promote and support incoherent demands for teh codez, then it is hard to see how the site would attract and retain people who will provide quality answers.

Putting lipstick on a pig is just going to keep earning lazy freeloaders points giving them continued incentives to do what they are doing. While I would not have rolled back the edit, I certainly understand @Borodin's reaction. In the past, I have chosen not to approve edits for such questions hoping that they would quickly disappear.

We find ourselves in this situation because most people who used to provide quality answers in the perl tag and on whom we would have been able to count on to quickly exterminate such lazy, incoherent questions have decided it is not worth their time trying to improve SO.

Therefore, I believe moderator Matt's decision was at the very least misguided and not in line with contributing to SO's longevity.

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  • 14
    If one is burnt out, he should seek other activities to fullfil his aspirations. Rolling back a good edit is vandalism.
    – brasofilo
    Commented Jun 11, 2017 at 0:59
  • Not my job to prevent lazyness and ugliness to take over SO. I love the power to edit that this site gives us and loathe seeing it beeing misused. By the way, picking a fight with Oded is akin to bully an Unicorn (oh, his job is to prevent bad things to take over the site) @Borodin
    – brasofilo
    Commented Jun 11, 2017 at 1:10
  • 3
    @brasofilo: And encouraging people to post lazy, ugly questions is a Good Thing, right? It seems that there are people here with influence who are either horribly out of touch or determined to be contrary or to sabotage Stack Overflow.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 11, 2017 at 1:10
  • 2
    @brasofilo: Hah! I don't give a damn about Oded's job title. If he posts off topic and uses mockery and discreditation to squash a point then he has stuck his horn in the wrong place.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 11, 2017 at 1:14
  • 10
    You're trying to deflect the fact that you defaced a post in some quest for "justice". The Diamond People are the ones that handle the law of this site, if you are on Vigilante mode, good luck with that. I'd suggest going out and checking the Moon :)
    – brasofilo
    Commented Jun 11, 2017 at 1:22
  • 17
    @Borodin I don't understand why you're continuing to pursue this. Moderators have weighed in and the community has reached a near consensus that the actions of Matt are excused by the fact that he was trying to give the OP a second chance in good faith after someone else made an edit in bad faith. Had the good edit not been rolled back, none of this would have happened, so any "abuse" of power cannot be solely placed on Matt. Commented Jun 11, 2017 at 1:39
  • 2
    @4castle: I'm not "continuing to pursue this" except to respond occasionally to comments like your own. Did you think that this post was mine, and an answer to my own question?
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 11, 2017 at 13:51
  • Sinan You will probably be interested in this
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 11, 2017 at 17:19
  • And this follow up
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 11, 2017 at 19:24
  • @Borodin I guess I learned something today thanks to those questions. I am not sure exactly what it is I learned but still ... Commented Jun 11, 2017 at 23:52
58

why I had made the rollback, which was to keep the down votes and related comments relevant

Terrible reason to rollback good edits.

The whole point of community editing (one of the major premises Stack Overflow is based on) is to improve posts, so they can be undeleted and reopened.

Keeping downvotes relevant? Why? This suggests that we just shouldn't allow edits at all, so people can't save a post.

Keeping comments relevant? Comments that as a community are agreed to be temporary things? I don't even.


This is not moderator abuse. This is moderator response to abuse - your abuse. Rolling back a good edit should not have been something you do. Excusing it with "keeping downvotes and comments" is nearly comical, in particular coming from someone with such high rep as your self - it is as if you don't know or understand how the site works and operates.

He may have taken more steps that you'd have expected in order to correct the abuse, but that's his right as a moderator.

Removing the comments - absolutely fine. They were no longer relevant to the post (which has already been edited again, by yet someone else).

12
  • You seem to have a problem staying on topic. This isn't an answer to this question; it is a response to the comments that I posted to Matt under the original post. Please answer what I have written here, which isn't even a question about Matt's comment, but about his deleting of comments and boosting an unwanted question back to life.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 18:41
  • 8
    He did right. You started something by rolling back a good edit. At this point a moderator getting involved was inevitable - just happened to be Matt. I totally agree with his choices. I may have handled it somewhat differently, but the fact is - you stepped in it and he corrected something that should have never happened.
    – Oded
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 18:42
  • 3
    Please don't make this about my rollback. It is clear that I am not questioning its undoing; in fact that was done earlier by another user and I simply let it be. I don't take part in rollback wars. What I am questioning is that Matt has deleted explanatory comments and, most important, reopened a pretty much useless question in the face of many user down votes and close votes. Had he been an ordinary user that vote wouldn't have resulted in a reopening.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 18:46
  • 24
    Fact is - your bad rollback is what started this whole thing. Of course it is relevant.
    – Oded
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 18:47
  • 4
    Nonsense. It wasn't even in place when Matt became involved. Whatever you believe, can you not answer the question? Are you saying that it's fine for Matt to reopen an unwanted question because I made an edite that was undone before he saw the post?
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 18:54
  • 1
    To be honest, I am extremely suspicious of an answer from a moderator to a post questioning the behaviour of a moderator, especially with such a huge amount of upvotes when you have chosen to respond to a different question altogether. Some people may think that you have some good points, but no one can believe that this is a really a good answer to what I have asked above.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:09
  • 17
    I am a a Stack Overflow employee and developer, but you are welcome to think as you wish. I think that asking for an answer while wanting to disregard the circumstances around the original issue is naive at best.
    – Oded
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:21
  • 6
    Also, not sure who you would expect to respond authoritatively then.
    – Oded
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:22
  • I don't expect "authority" in a discussion; I am asking for thoughts and opinions. I don't believe anyone with any authority or responsibility should have any say in Meta at all; I have no idea whether I can trust you. And "asking for an answer while wanting to disregard the circumstances around the original issue is naive at best" I am happy for you to mention the circumstances, but not to build up a faux answer entirely based on them and to ignore the actual question that I asked. Surely even you must see fifteen up votes as being a little weird for a non-answer?
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:29
  • 28
    Frankly, after being accused of acting in bad faith, I have nothing more to say to you, nor the inclination to.
    – Oded
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:32
  • 1
    If you were acting in good faith, you wouldn't post and defend a completely off-topic answer at a cost to me and to the clarity of the thread. I hope your disinclination persists.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:45
  • It's also interesting that you plead "good faith" without considering that my original rollback, which you are so focused on here, was also in "good faith". If I was wrong regardless, and therefore the sole topic of your "answer" then so are you wrong to post a distracting and irrelevant note. What you have to say is destructive, conceited, and presumptuous, and good moderators must have different qualities from those.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 20:15
41

I am asking here about the final result, which is the reopening of an extremely disliked question by a moderator, whose actions wouldn't have the same effect had he been a regular user.

The question was closed as "unclear what you're asking". However, Benjamin's edit (which you rolled back) made the question clear as to what the OP was asking.

In other words, had you not rolled back Benjamin's edit, I postulate the question would not have been closed.

Given I was handling a flag about your abusive rollback, I felt it within the boundaries of my moderator duties to revert consequences of your rollback; one of which (I believe) was the closure (and eventual deletion) of the question.

In its current form the question is clear. Yes, it is a "give me the codez question", which shows little research, but you'll note we purposefully don't have that as a close reason. As for the question being disliked? We don't have a close reason for that. Either.

Disliked questions should be downvoted. Off topic questions should be closed.

8
  • 1
    Yes. But there is no category for trivial, lazy or idiotic questions that would provide no value for Stack Overflow. There has been massive resistance for as long as I can remember to any such closure reason, and in the mean time people generally use Questions seeking debugging help must ..., too broad, or unclear, none of which are properly appropriate. Given a properly phrased category of too lazy or too stupid I am sure that the votes would have used one of them; after all it wasn't so hard to glean the meaning of the original question.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:16
  • 2
    But in forbidding an appropriate category and arcanely giving the nod to too broad clearly meaning too lazy our hand is forced into using a weapon that you then come back and use against us. The bottom line is that the question now has twelve downvotes and shouldn't be open, and if you weren't a moderator it would still be closed.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:19
  • I am sure the treatment I have received here and the expectation that anyone else posting here will get the same battering relieves you of many unwanted challenges. But you can't have any pride in what you're doing while no one has any option but to agree with you for fear of ridicule and suppression. Oded has done you a great service by posting an answer to a different question altogether and given you all the chance to vote up his nonsense. That doesn't wash with the majority of ordinary users.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:35
  • "I felt it within the boundaries of my moderator duties to revert consequences of your rollback" Even though most of those close votes were cast after ikegami had reverted my rollback? If you felt so strongly that I had influenced the votes, then you should have undone the votes and left the voters free to repeat them. As I have said elsewhere, despite many requests there is still no appropriate close reason for lazy or frivolous questions and because of that many posts like this one are closed every day for false reasons.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:41
  • 3
    You should certainly not consider overriding five other experienced users down votes and delete votes to reopen such a ridiculous question. I am sure that many agree with me. In fact your colleagues probably agree with me, and I would hope that you do too. But it seems that solidarity comes first, and the user must be made out to be at fault. My only hope is that you will do and say what you believe is right, and not letting the opportunity for high-handedness go to your head.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:43
  • 13
    Re "However, Benjamin's edit (which you rolled back) made the question clear as to what the OP was asking.", Indeed! Unaware of what was happening, I made pretty word for word the same edit Benjamin did after Borodin had reverted it!
    – ikegami
    Commented Jun 11, 2017 at 7:24
  • 1
    "I made pretty word for word the same edit Benjamin did after Borodin had reverted it!" Which is precisely why Matt undeleting and reopening was out of order: my rollback was in place for only a very few minutes, and the question certainly didn't get all of those close votes during that time. I wasn't about to start a rollback war. And there wasn't a single delete vote when I finally left the page. Those came much later.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 12, 2017 at 20:31
  • There were two delete votes when I did my edit.
    – ikegami
    Commented Jun 13, 2017 at 3:47
28

The mod also removed all of my comments which explained why I had made the rollback, which was to keep the down votes and related comments relevant. Those comments are also now gone.

I just want to address this.

Comments and votes aren't the point of this site. The Q&A is. When Q&A posts get improved, comments that are obsolesced should be deleted.

We don't keep posts in poor condition to keep comments from being deleted.

Poor question, yes. Not much of an improvement, yes. Your votes are up to you. But this site is not about comments - it's about the Q&A.

A comment said:

If what you say is true then it would be fine to give a 24-hour life to every comment.

Absolutely not. Some posts never have their problems fixed. If the problem is not fixed, comments addressing the problem should not be deleted.

1
  • 2
    I think this is misleading. If what you say is true then it would be fine to give a 24-hour life to every comment. That would save enormously on the storage space that SO had to pay for, and tidy up the pages enormously. So why do you think they're kept when they "aren't the point of this site" and are so inconsequential?
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 20:14
14

I'm not going to pretend to like this question (in question); it seems like it's asking for code wantonly.

However...

  • It was edited into relative shape; what was a horrible mess is less of a mess now.
  • Deleting the question means that the OP can never rephrase it into a question that's better.

While I don't exactly agree with it being reopened, it would've been fine to leave it closed and undeleted. Giving the OP at least a chance to rephrase their question (since it was deleted within two hours of it existing) is better than not. At a minimum, it gives them a chance to understand why this sort of question isn't the best to ask...

I'm also going to stop short of calling this abuse. The moderator probably believed they were doing what was best for the question, which was to undo the rollback and to restore the question. It did seem like it was deleted in a bit of a huff.

Oded's done his part in explaining the moderator's stance, and I'll leave him to explain that. I'm only commenting from the perspective of an unaffiliated editor.

3
  • Thank you for a reasonable response. But "The moderator probably believed they were doing what was best for the question" is irrelevant; it doesn't stop it from being abuse of privilege. I similarly believed I was doing what was best for the question, but the guy with the diamond wins out, and the result is one of very few questions with a net -9 votes that is still open. The OP still hasn't accepted the one answer he got despite his reprieve.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:08
  • 1
    @Borodin: When deleting a question, what's "best" for the question is no longer relevant, since deletion is meant to remove it from the community. To that point, the net number of votes is also immaterial; if the question could be improved, it should be improved. Deleting the question eliminates any possibility of it being improved.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:44
  • As you say "it would've been fine to leave it closed and undeleted" and I agree. But undeleting and reopening such an unpopular question leaves us in the ridiculous situation that we have now. As I wrote above, if votes could be undone and the votes returned to their makers but with the question tidied up then it would have made some sense. But Matt came along and thought "I am certain that none of these eight people would have voted that way if the question looked prettier. I shall fix their decisions for them" leaving no way for any of us to assure him that he was wrong.
    – Borodin
    Commented Jun 10, 2017 at 19:52

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