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I've succeeded in helping people quite well on Stack Overflow, but life on Meta seems to be in a completely different world, and apparently without any guidelines.

I am quite happy to accept that "it is what it is", but are there some magic words that I need to know for my enquiry to even be accepted here?

I've recently learned that there are only four tags here, and I don't think I can request a new one. (Huh?) And also that it's a bad idea to use more than one tag at a time, although the system does nothing to prevent me. Isn't that weird? Is it laid out anywhere?

As a GUI, Stack Overflow is pretty poor, but I think that Meta is the only place to represent such misgivings, and I have never been successful in getting any of my concerns even considered. It feels hugely political, and as if good ideas will be mocked unless they come from a select few

I would be more than happy with "I understand you, but it doesn't make sense because we also have to do X and Y". Instead I get scorn and sarcasm far worse than anything on SO itself. I guess I don't know the handshake

I think I am not alone, given the frequency with which many common concerns are brought up here, and the corresponding stasis of pretty much every aspect of the site

What sort of question will get me reasoned and intelligent answers here on Meta?

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    Umm, here's the tag list for meta: meta.stackoverflow.com/tags Commented May 31, 2017 at 20:37
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    You and I have crossed paths before here, and there are some things that you've said in your feature requests that haven't made sense. I want to write up a proper explanation after work when I have time, but for a primer: some of your most poorly received ideas are suggestions we'd normally expect from one who isn't that familiar with the site (i.e. one with a lot less rep to do things with). It's likely the gap between our perceived expectation of you and your actual site knowledge is causing the backlash. I'm not assuming anything, but I do want to author a proper response.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 31, 2017 at 20:41
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    This might be relevant: "How do I participate in Meta and not die trying?"
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented May 31, 2017 at 21:00
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    I find that most answers on meta are reasoned and intelligent, even the hopelessly wrong/unacceptable ones. Commented May 31, 2017 at 21:02
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    Summary of Brad's link: talk about "waffles, ponies, unicorns and bacon". Commented May 31, 2017 at 21:03
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    You've not provided much in the way of evidence that you "get scorn and sarcasm" in responses. I'm guessing you're talking about this recent feature-request. In that case, you're asking for an exception to a known standard for just Stack Overflow comments. The downvotes are disagreeing with your request for the feature, and the comments are questioning whether the feature is necessary. Commented May 31, 2017 at 21:32
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    @MikeMcCaughan: I don't expect to have to provide "evidence" in my posts. It certainly isn't a common requirement in SO or in conversation outside court. The question you linked has precipitated this one, but it is far from being my only experience of exclusivity here. There are no answers, and the comments don't dispute that my case is rock solid. I just have a whole boxful of downvotes for a reasonable request. I'm still wondering what the incantation may be.
    – Borodin
    Commented May 31, 2017 at 21:42
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    @BradLarson: I have read that post before. Like all other threads on Meta it is full of disapprovals and inconsequences. Please point me to a productive post here that has been the result of real change.
    – Borodin
    Commented May 31, 2017 at 21:45
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    Well, you don't have to provide anything, obviously. But it seems like, if you want to be taken seriously when complaining about a perceived issue, that you provide some indication that the perception is founded in reality rather than just in your head. Regarding that feature request, you're asking for Stack Overflow to violate a standard so that it's easier for you to read the markdown of a comment; the people downvoting disagree that this would be a helpful addition. I'm not sure that your comments waving away violating standards as "facile" did anything to win your argument. Commented May 31, 2017 at 21:49
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    I don't see an enormous problem in your previous meta posts, only one got a negative score. You do like to use the [discussion] tag but then don't seem to be terribly thrilled when somebody actually engages into that discussion. It is in the nature of the beast, you'll hear first from people that have an opposing opinion, those that agree with you tend to just upvote the post and not otherwise add their "yeah man, you are totally right" comments. You could easily tag this specific question with [support] instead, discussing hurt feelings never pans out that well. Commented May 31, 2017 at 21:56
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    @Borodin: You do need to provide evidence in Meta posts. Certainly not the same standard of evidence as a criminal trial, not even a civil court. But enough to convince people to spend their time on your problem, instead of just moving along to one of the six million other things they could be doing today.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 1, 2017 at 2:07
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    @JoshCaswell ...and probably Show your work: one simple trick to make meta effective
    – gnat
    Commented Jun 1, 2017 at 14:33

4 Answers 4

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Asking and answering questions on Meta requires a slightly different approach than on the main sites. On Stack Overflow proper, it's enough to state facts or present a problem, and that's it. On Meta, you need to win over the community to your point of view, convince them that your feature request is a good idea, or get them interested in a general discussion about something.

As a result, your tone and presentation matter a lot more here than you might think. The community generally doesn't respond well to an adversarial attitude. It's easier to get people on your side if you don't make them defensive. Keeping things polite and understanding goes a long way here.

For feature requests, you have to convince the community that what you propose would be an improvement over how things are. It's worth doing a quick search to see if people have proposed something similar here, and what arguments, if any, people made against that similar proposal. See if those apply to what you're suggesting and defuse them in your suggestion.

It also helps to weigh the amount of developer time that might be required to implement what you want. A small UI tweak to a specific part of an interface will probably require less of an argument than a complete revamp of the closing system. Is there a simpler way that the developers might be able to solve the problem you're seeing?

A site this large does experience some inertia in getting things changed. As Shog9 states:

We pretty much had the whole "programmer Q&A" thing ticking along 8 years ago. There was still a lot of optimization to be done, a lot of knob-turning and such, figuring out how to scale it up and make it run smoothly... But the basic engine was running; it worked, it made money, it generated a repository of knowledge. Not very much knowledge, but... Enough to demonstrate the concept. Six years ago, that pile of knowledge was a lot bigger... And we were starting to see that defensive thinking set in, both in the folks here on meta and within the company. Today, we have millions of users and hundreds of employees who all depend on this machine running constantly, consistently, every day 24/7. Changing anything that might threaten that operation requires getting past row after row of guards, on the site, here on meta, and within the company itself. We're all in "defense mode":

The changes that do get made have to work around or compensate for deficiencies in all of the stuff that doesn't change; the end result of this is a huge, impossibly complicated system that few fully understand and where no one can predict what changing it will actually do.

Finally, don't take downvotes on Meta personally. They are used for well-presented feature requests that people either disagree with or don't believe are worth developer time. They are used for opinions that people disagree with. It doesn't mean that people dislike you or think your suggestions or opinions are worthless. I've used downvotes on my own posts to gauge community sentiment, and learned quite a bit from them.

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    We have crossed paths before, and you have a remarkable propensity to ignore the obvious while sticking to your own story. You would make a great policeman, but that shouldn't be your role here. As before, nothing that you have assumed about my attitude is accurate, but something smells very badly here and I really don't want to be part of what it has become. I would be surprised if you don't know immediately what I mean, but even in naivete if you look at the few comments and upvotes that I have received then you should see that something is wrong. You could do something to fix it.
    – Borodin
    Commented May 31, 2017 at 23:03
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    @Borodin: Brad's not telling you how he wants things to be, he's telling you how they are. Following his advice is necessary to get your Meta posts actually considered rather than dismissed as naive/lacks research. I believe you started your question by saying you that this particular instance is about understanding the system, that you want to be told the way it is. Well, everything Brad said -- that's the way it is. Not because he chooses that way or because I choose that way, but because we've spent thousands of hours on this site and observed the community.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jun 1, 2017 at 2:16
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    Spot-on answer, IMO. I'd just like to add that convincing the community to throw support behind a feature request is also only a part of the overall task. The other part is convincing Stack Overflow the Company to actually spend the time/effort to implement the change. Justification of need matters even more there since we have a lot of things we're working on at any given time. You generally have to either sway a substantial number of users or convince at least one employee to come around and advocate for your proposal internally. Or some measure of both. (cc @Borodin)
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Jun 1, 2017 at 3:30
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    While this all great information, I'd like to point out that this is basically answering the question of "how do I get people to agree with my proposal". The meta question asked was how to get reasoned and intelligent answers. The OP here was getting reasoned and intelligent answers, they were just reasoned and intelligent answers that disagreed with the proposal.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 1, 2017 at 17:14
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What sort of question will get me reasoned and intelligent answers here on Meta?

Well, the first part is to do research before asking for something. For example, the question "Relax syntax for inline hyperlinks" is poorly researched. Why? Because SO did not invent the syntax for inline hyperlinks, or for most of what we use. SO simply adopted Markdown; this pseudo-standard is what defines our syntax.

That changes the nature of the question. It isn't a simple, "let's make a small change". It is actually, "let's make this change in defiance of the widely-used Markdown 'standard'." That requires a lot more justification than personal preference for shorter lines.

To people who've been on the site, who've done the research, asking for such things is annoying. Just like it is on SO. So it's no surprise that a question that demonstrates little research effort received downvotes and no answers.

It is also a good idea to think through the effects of an idea before posting it. For example, "I should be allowed to answer closed questions" was railed against because it would have the effect of making question closure utterly meaningless. The OP did not seem to realize that the primary purpose of question closure is not to put "[on hold]" in the name, but instead to stop people from answering. That's a failure of research, but it would also be a failure of thinking about how such a change would impact the site.

Similarly, for people on this site who understand how the system works, it's rather off-putting for someone to appear and start claiming that we should make radical changes when they're unaware that their changes are indeed radical. These sorts of things tend to draw downvotes and bile.

It's also a good idea to focus on solving problems, rather than having meta-meta discussions. For example, "Questions where the author is the problem" is essentially a complaint that an issue that a long-standing issue hasn't been addressed. Well... yeah, we know that. Is the complaint going to get that changed? Odds are good, no, it will not. The case for the feature was better made on the original question, so the post amounts to very little.

Obviously, you've probably noticed that all these examples are highly downvoted posts of your own. There's a reason for that.

the comments don't dispute that my case is rock solid.

This is also the sort of thing that is likely to cause a negative reaction. You classify this feature request as a "rock solid" case.

Ignoring what was said about this post earlier... you didn't actually make a case at all. You merely declared that it should work the way you want it to. You state that the syntax exists as it does "for no ambiguity reason that I can see". But that's not a case for changing it.

Even if such a change wouldn't create ambiguity (and I don't know that it does), that's not an argument for actually making that change. It's merely an argument that, if the change were to be made, the grammar would still work out.

If you're going to argue for a change, you need to argue that the change is necessary. And the only need you show in that post is your own personal preferences.

That's not a "rock solid" case by any reasonable definition of that term.

I don't expect to have to provide "evidence" in my posts.

Well... why not? Evidence always helps. When you're asking someone to do something, it is never wrong to provide more than simple words. Evidence is how you can separate BS artists from people who actually know what they're talking about. Evidence makes arguments a lot more functional.

Evidence makes it clear who does and does not have a "rock solid" case.

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A handful of other people have given wonderful answers here, which largely cover what I wanted to hit, so I'll focus on another angle.

First, whether this is intentional or not, we have certain expectations of a user who has a certain amount of rep on Meta. That is to say, when a user with your amount of rep posts on Meta, we assume - either consciously or subconsciously - that they are acutely familiar with the site and its trappings. To say nothing of your past positive contributions to the site, seeing you suggest changes to comments which make no kind of sense is a bit jarring. The suggestion wasn't one I'd expect, and worse, the defense of it was...well, there wasn't any. Interestingly enough, you've pitched the idea before, and it didn't get met with a lot of warmth, either.

That could also be due to you wanting to optimize the most insignificant thing about Q&A; we don't even allow you to search by comment, so any improvements to comments at all outside of allowing them to be removed faster would need strong justification to even pass muster from the community-at-large. Don't even get me started on the response from the dev team. That's another can of worms.

I don't want to berate you for your suggestions; you suggested them and that's fine, but there's a double-edged sword at play here. Nicol Bolas struck the point well:

... [F]or people on this site who understand how the system works, it's rather off-putting for someone to appear and start claiming that we should make radical changes when they're unaware that their changes are indeed radical. These sorts of things tend to draw downvotes and bile.

If you're going to pitch a change, it needs to be justified. As I'm sure you're aware, in software development, doing anything is more expensive than doing nothing, and if there's something to be done, it has to be worth the ultimate expense. Whenever you use the tag, this is your opportunity to justify that expense. Failure to do so, or an insistence on an attitude of, "just do it", will merit lots of heat and backlash.

For example... this comment wouldn't have won anyone over to your side in this argument, nor would this one.

Next, to actually answer the question you pose...it's kind of two things at work here. One is this underlying perception that somehow, the answers you're getting aren't reasoned or intelligent. Take this question for instance; not only do you receive a good answer for it, you even accepted it. It's tough to justify an argument where the answer there isn't reasoned or intelligent.

The other element at work may be one where you're not enjoying the fact that people just aren't agreeing with your suggestions. Hans Passant alluded to this much in his off-the-cuff comment (of which he's been doing a lot of), but to summarize: discussion is a two-way street. Both sides are having a discussion, and it isn't just your view point (or mine, or anyone else's) that gets to "win". By and large, it's about consensus and bringing people over to see your point of view. I've personally had my own successes and significant, massive failures; both of which have helped correct my perception of the community, and how Stack Overflow (and to some extent, the larger network) is administered.

Lastly, I'll leave you with some general tips on what not to post in questions. In skimming a few of your questions on Meta, some of your better-received questions contain less combative phrases. This one about Perl highlighting is perfectly fine and concisely explains the point, which is why no one bothered to contest you on it. This one about questions where the OP is the issue (not a novel concept but definitely an issue nonetheless) makes it seem like the problem is being actively ignored or shunned, which definitely isn't the case. It's ill-advised to imply that the developers or community are being lazy or complacent in a problem; it could easily be that the problem wasn't on anyone's radar, or is actively being dealt with. Both of those perspectives are snuffed out by the phrase, "I have tried to understand why this problem has always been ignored."

If all else fails, perhaps take a break from Meta? We'll always be here anyway. Cooling off could be beneficial for everyone.

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I guess it just depends on what your goal is.

There are more than 4 tags, but there are only 4 main categories.

  • : Where you reference the past to raise an issue that is important to the way the site works.
  • : Where you reference as much as humanly possible to attempt to influence the company itself to make a change.
  • : Report a bug, preferably with a screenshot and some environment details.
  • : Request some explanation of a feature or misunderstanding with how to use a feature.

Bug and support are rather straightforward, and I won't address them much anymore.

I have rather extensive experience with meta, but that doesn't mean if I request a poor feature it wont be downvoted heavily. Similarly, if I post a discussion which is a rant I would expect to be heavily downvoted as well.

There are some magic words.

The best thing you can do for your meta post is to read up on what you are about to discuss or request. There is a vast history of meta. It may not be entirely obvious, but Meta Stack Exchange was for a long time Stack Overflow Meta up until the split in 2014.

Meta Stack Exchange has 82,000 questions, and 60,000 of them came from Stack Overflow Meta. If you are curious about discussing something, start by looking there. In all honesty, looking there should solve most curiosities. If not, include those sources and explain what you took away from them and what you still would like to discuss.

Try to create a place for discussion by using an unbiased starting point. Show the situation that led to what you want to discuss, its history, perhaps some data from SEDE, and then let the community discuss that situation.

If you want to have a feature request work out well, it is best to start a discussion about the problem the feature would solve. Community consensus is the best way to move a feature request forward, and that requires figuring out what the community feels is the best solution to a problem, or if the problem even presents itself as something that needs solving.

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    I would order those tags with discussion at last. Discussion is mainly for stuff that doesn't fit other tags proper.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 1, 2017 at 2:32
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    There is no order to the tags. I also disagree with your casual dismissal of the discussion tag as a catchall.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jun 1, 2017 at 4:40

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