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Something I have noticed is that generally people have "zero tolerance" with the questioner asking a "basic question".
They get downvoted to the stone age and the question is either deleted, closed or put on hold.

Just recently I answered in a question where a comment was "check the related questions", I was curious, so I did too. I found a question about how to use the strpos() function in PHP, that is a function to find the position of a char/word in a string for those who are not PHPers.

The question has 2160 upvotes and 10 downvotes: How do I check if a string contains a specific word?

Some may argue that it was a hard question back then.
I had no clue of PHP back then, but googling a while and looking in the PHP manual gives me clues that this function strpos() has been around at least six years before this question was posted.

Why is it such a big difference in opinion how/what a good question is today vs then?
Posting a question and not knowing "all" functions is almost a crime today.
Is it correct to downvote the way people do today, or is it correct to upvote the way people did in the past? Or is both correct, meaning it has evolved to an standard where each questioner has to know it all before posting a question?

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    You don't need to know everything, but you do need to do your research, and make a reasonable effort to try to find the information that will answer your question before you ask it. That was true then, just as it is now.
    – Servy
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 15:41
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    For what it's worth, looking at the score from 2017 is very misleading. For about a year, that post had only 3 upvotes, and it didn't reach a score of 5 until January 2012 (over a year!). The fact that it's been upvoted so highly is because it's been useful to so many other people, not because it's an exceptionally well written question.
    – Aurora0001
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 15:47
  • @Aurora0001 I didn't know you could see those stats. How do you find them? Thank you!
    – Andreas
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 16:05
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    @Andreas There's no UI element to get to the timeline; you'll need to go to stackoverflow.com/posts/<POST_ID>/timeline where <POST_ID> is the number in the question's URL.
    – Aurora0001
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 16:06
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    @Aurora0001 I see! Thank you. It gives a much clearer picture of how and why such a basic question has the up/down vote it does.
    – Andreas
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 16:08

2 Answers 2

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To start with, one simply can't 'know it all', and if it was indeed possible, the whole SE network wouldn't exist because why start up a question & answer site if you can, like, plug a USB drive into your head and copy knowledge into your brain? (This is how I imagine 'knowing it all').

To my mind, people are downvoting because as they see more content, they develop their own, probably subconscious rules.

A lot of questions asked today are duplicates of older questions, so when one sees a question they feel they've already seen somewhere on SO, they could downvote because "This has been asked hundreds of times, dude, why don't you use the search before asking??!"

Also, when a question is closed as a dupe, people can visit the dupe target and, given that these are often well-written/well-answered questions, upvote it as it often solves the OP's problem.

Lots of questions are also very basic:

-Hey guys, I wanna add two numbers but fail:(

-Damn, Daniel, you've got a typo here...

Or:

-What does char test[256]; mean in C?

-Huh? Have you ever read any introductory book about C? Or any tutorial? I mean, this is extremely basic stuff.

So there's actually nothing to answer, and some people may follow the usual routine: downvote + close vote.

I'd say, the standards are evolving. The more content you see, the more quality you demand, otherwise SO would be a giant pile of garbage.

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    I see your point. But sometimes I see that people are more or less mean instead of just giving the hint what is the problem. For example a missing ; or as you mentioned a space or a missing delimiter. I just think people are too trigger happy on the downvote and "search before you post" commenting instead of helping.
    – Andreas
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 16:03
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    @Andreas, helping the helpless is absolutely helpless.
    – ForceBru
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 16:07
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    @Andreas SO isn't your private tutor, or your own personal free programming consultant. If you're providing low quality content that's not helpful to the site, and is in violation of the site's standards, you simply can't expect everyone to ignore all of that and do what you want anyway. That's what it means to have rules and quality standards. If you want someone to search Google for you because you can't be bothered, then hire someone, or go to a site that considers that behavior welcome (or just search Google yourself; it's a skill worth learning, trust me).
    – Servy
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 16:07
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    @Andreas 'I see that people are more or less mean instead of just giving the hint what is the problem.' is it mean to get annoyed when asked the same question 1000 times? If you think that a simple donwvote is mean and want to help with such questions, please give us your email address so that the thousands of questions per day in that category can be forwarded to you for help. The rest of us will carry on just down/close voting and answering the good questions while you panic 24/7 trying to keep up with the utter dross. Commented May 30, 2017 at 17:28
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    @Andreas what you see is LITERALLY fatigue. You are right. First time you see a newbie who forgot a ';' get shunned down, it looks bad. Now start looking at the new posts, and try to be nice and helpful to EVERYONE who posts basic questions. After being told for the Nth time "shut up, just fix my issue" (in whichever nice way the new user will decide to insult you), you'll get tired and go down the same path. Sucks.... but everyone who has tried seemed to hit that point eventually....
    – Patrice
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 17:36
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    otherwise SO would be a giant pile of garbage. You mean it isn't? ;) Sure, there's good content here, but there's also a lot of "bad" content. Commented May 30, 2017 at 17:47
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    @Patrice I understand that too. If it's an attitude "issue" with the questioneer like you say than that's one thing. But if it's only a clueless newbie why not just help out? Yes you are supposed to "do your homework before posting" but if you have no clue what to look for, what are you going to do? Just like the first time someone answerd one of my questions with "regex". I had no clue that excisted. I read programming in the 90´s, with c++ and html 2.0. Surely we can all agree that one day long time ago/or not that long ago we were at that point where we were clueless just like those whoask?
    – Andreas
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 19:12
  • @Andreas, notice that nobody says that none of such questions are answered. Some questions may get downvotes as well as answers, these two aren't mutually exclusive.
    – ForceBru
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 19:16
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    Another issue I see is that new members are not allowed to comment. I know why and I understand the reasons meta.stackexchange.com/questions/214173/… but it's not making it easy for the clueless new member. First he gets downvoted because of a question beeing "bad", then when he/she wants to answer he/she can't comment and ask a simple question to get all facts correct but can't. So he/she posts it as an answer and get's downvoted again and possibly loosing the two points he/she gained on accepting an answer.
    – Andreas
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 19:17
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    All I'm saying is, maybe "we" should be easier on the new people?
    – Andreas
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 19:18
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    @Andreas why be easier on the 'new' people'? Why not just treat everyone the same? It's not even possible to detect 'new' people - 'Member for today' on the profile could mean a genuine new user, or sock-puppet #101, or voting-ring link 17 :( Commented May 30, 2017 at 19:49
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    Low rep points, few badges and a question that is low quality is a good hint. But sure you can click on the username also and find out the joined date.
    – Andreas
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 19:52
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    There isn't time to go through some extended analysis of users. I don't care about the rep, or joined date. If the question is bad, it gets downvoted or closevoted, and I look at the next question. If a user, new/old/whatever, asks a non-obvious-dupe, has actually tried to run the code, (yes, newbs dump code without even trying it), shown inputs and outputs, error messages and.or symptoms better than 'it doesn't work', and made some attempt to debug, (even if just added a few variable prints), then I am more than happy to try and help. Commented May 30, 2017 at 20:10
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    @Andreas, all of this has been discussed hundreds of times already! What a pity it's impossible to mark comments as duplicates... This is real life, man, nobody'll go easy on you or anyone else. If they ask questions that don't fit here somehow, they'll get down- and closevoted, this is it. Also, this question is very different from the one you're discussing here, so please stick to the point.
    – ForceBru
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 20:18
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    @Andreas and see... After 2-3 dozen users like this... You get very jaded and don't have patience to hold the hand of everyone... It truly sucks :/... But yeah...
    – Patrice
    Commented May 31, 2017 at 22:57
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Short answer to question as asked: 1) SO culture has become toxic and elitist (which Joel and others admit and are tackling head on as priority this year), and 2) admins are suffering from burnout.

Long answer:

1) Reading the comments here is extremely frustrating to me as a user. It seems that this year's giant smackdown from on high, https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/04/26/stack-overflow-isnt-very-welcoming-its-time-for-that-to-change/ has passed some people completely by. If you have not read it yet, please do.

There is a definite problem in SO with elitism and hostility.

This has been acknowledged at the highest levels.

Having our first questions downvoted until we learn the "right" way to ask is a very clear part of that problem.

Why, then, are people arguing against this obvious truth with the openly fallacious and toxic idea that "well, if you've answered a lot of newbie questions, then it's OK to start downvoting them once you get sick of them"?

That's not OK.

That's arguably a violation of the code of conduct (https://stackoverflow.com/help/be-nice). “Be welcoming, be patient, … and don’t expect new users to know all the rules — they don’t. And be patient while they learn.”

2) I see people asking "is it mean to get annoyed when asked the same question 1000 times?" (if it'd be mean after once, then yes: repetition in your experience changes nothing in a usr's first experience), and saying "you'll get tired and go down the same path", their "patience runs thin", they "get very jaded" and suffer "literal FATIGUE", to the point where they are behaving in a negative way to those new users who do not ask "good questions" on their first try.

These are descriptions of burnout.

That's awful. Please don't let SO do that to you. And don't do that to yourself, using SO as a blade.


But what can be done?

While Andreas brings up some good points (things like: newbies can't even comment to ask for clarification on what they did wrong), I think item 1 there is being dealt with well enough by Joel et al, and I'm excited to see what comes out of it this year.

But item 2 is perhaps something that only the burned out admins can fix, for themselves.

And the fix is to step away. Pet our cats, walk our dogs, blow stuff up in a computer game.

Here's Joel (https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2018/04/23/strange-and-maddening-rules/), explaining that, yes, it is fine for newbie programmers to ask questions, and if that bugs anyone, then they can just walk away, even if that means forever:

We understood that this might mean that some of the more advanced people might grow bored with duplicate, simple questions, and move on. We thought that was fine: Stack Overflow doesn’t have to be a lifetime commitment. You’re welcome to get bored and move on if you think that the newbies keep asking why they can’t return local char arrays (“but it works for me!”) and you would rather devote the remaining short years of your life to something more productive, like sorting your record albums.

Forever is, I suspect, far too long. But "until the burn of the burnout has faded" is probably wise. We should avoid admin tasks when we're "annoyed" - we're all worth more than that. Give yourself the space you deserve to get your head in order.

If burnout makes us affect even a small slice of the community negatively, even if our effect is generally positive for the ones who ask what we decide are "good questions", then it's time to step away for a while, if not for our own sanity and wellbeing, then for that of SO.

SO will still be there when we return. We'll still be awesome if we help later rather than sooner. It's not a race to help the most.

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    What is wrong with downvoting (and give a comment as to why) to let a new user know that there is a problem with his/her question? Or are programmers nowadays such precious snowflakes that they cannot handle a downvote? Besides there are a LOT of terrible questions that cannot be answered or even commented on for a fix.
    – VDWWD
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 19:42
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    @VDWWD Nothing, if you'd do that the first time you saw it too, such as a downvote-as-dup. Doing so to non-dup newbie questions only once you've seen a hundred of them, particularly if you do it out of "annoyance", "FATIGUE", "thin patience", being "tired", etc, however, is not OK: that's the burnout voting and commenting. Commented May 11, 2018 at 19:57
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    Lets say I or other users don't do anything to a bad question. The question will be left there to fade. That also does not help the OP. He does not get an answer and may post a new question in the future which is just as bad because no one warned him on the previous one. PS i do not have a burnout ;)
    – VDWWD
    Commented May 11, 2018 at 20:05
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    @VDWWD I didn't say nobody should act. I say that people expressing the litany of terms I quoted (a significant proportion of comments in this question and its answers) should step away until those terms no longer apply to them. "Step away" shouldn't be the only answer: suggest others? Perhaps tech solutions might help people not get fed up as fast, for instance? Burnout's a legitimate problem here, it affects the atmosphere Joel et al are working to fix, and the comments I quoted are a crystal clear expression of it. But it's not insurmountable, once it's accepted as a problem. Commented May 11, 2018 at 20:49
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    I'll take a stand for fairness in the treatment of questions any day of the week (check out my meta history if you don't believe me), but... posts like this make me sick. You want fairness, but you're attacking a large swathe of the community from a stance of entitlement. Fairness for you, but not for me, right?
    – user4639281
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 19:06
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    @DewiMorgan I am troubled by long-time users being called "burned out". A burnout is a serious condition, and it is different from getting annoyed by new users who don't care about the community. I am also troubled by using a quote from Joel as legitimation for suggesting users to walk away from SO. I find Joels quote pretty belittling. Why should users who care for the quality and invested time in SO walk away to do "something more productive, like sorting record albums"? A disappointing stance. Commented May 12, 2018 at 20:11
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    @DewiMorgan Further more I have the feeling that reactions of new users are getting more and more toxic. Just happened: user posts a very helpful and neutral comment on a question of a new user and gets hit with a very rude comment in return, including racial slurs. Comment apparently got flagged and removed, with seemingly no consequences for the offending user. Out code of conduct should apply to all users, and I am missing the part of new users being accountable for their actions in the whole "being welcoming" discussion, too. Commented May 12, 2018 at 22:02
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    I have seen "burn-out" quoted as the specific reason for potentially unwelcoming behaviour many, many times. Both by the one accused of being unwelcoming and other users justifying the behaviour in question. So I think @DewiMorgan is totally on-topic here. If so many of us use it to justify our behaviour, we have to admit it's a problem. Only then can we fix it. If that means some of us stepping away for a while or longer, so be it.
    – jpp
    Commented May 12, 2018 at 23:46
  • @jpp Thanks :) Though, I do feel "step away" can, at best, only be minimally effective advice: very rarely can we admit we're human, with human limits that we've exceeded for a while (burned out, jaded, frustrated, fed-up...). I know I very rarely can: my wife usually has to tell me! So it's a bigger problem than can be dealt with by my pat advice, and needs better systems (social? technological?) to address it. If "acknowledge the problem" is just step 1, advising "step away" is just step 2. And I have no idea of any sensible path of steps after that :( Commented May 13, 2018 at 21:19
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    Hmm... nothing is wrong with using downvotes to indicate a problem with a question, @VDWWD. But as far as people imagine, the issue is that newbies don't understand that downvotes aren't meant as a form of hostility, and that some users seemingly do use them as a form of hostility. Perhaps there needs to be a little message that appears on a user's first downvoted post, explaining to them that while downvotes are meant to convey that there's an issue with a post, it's one that they might be able to fix. And that even if it's not, that doesn't mean people are against them personally. Commented May 17, 2020 at 2:21

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