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I have just written an answer to a question, where I felt the explanation would suffer visually if I couldn't use math notation and graphs freely to explain the logical errors behind it. So I've taken the liberty of describing the method I used there in a meta post as a workaround for the highly-requested/disputed MathJax solution, hopefully to help out people who have the same problem, and possibly interest the SO devs in that kind of approach as an alternative to MathJax.

However, whether MathJax should or should not be used for such a thing (and I am fully aware and accept many of the reasons outlined in the answers to this now-controversially popular question) it is my impression that there is a big divide of opinion regarding to what extent latex math (or math notation in general) is useful or necessary on SO.

It seems to me that the community is divided between opinions like this or this, who feel math has almost no place in SO, versus people who keep getting disgruntled because they want to use it all the time, and that both opinions are vocal, but there is no real indication of how many *actual* users would benefit, or are hurt by the absence of such a tool, or at least a standardised workaround.

So, I was hoping people might post / link to answers or comments below demonstrating and discussing actual use cases for math on SO, and present actual arguments on why math notation is useful or not on this forum (like my example above), to gauge whether there's an actual need for a more appropriate bespoke solution, as opposed to resorting to cumbersome / nonstandardised workarounds like the one I posted.

To clarify: whether or not this solution ends up being MathJax or not is not the question I'm asking. The question I'm asking is "can we finally gauge whether this need is real or not from the actual users here, rather than rely on anecdotal evidence and scattered opinions on whether it is or isn't an issue?" If we gauge that it is, then maybe we can discuss how to approach the problem (MathJax or otherwise). If it is not, then we can put that issue to rest, fully confident that we are not disgruntling a large majority of users (and specifically of the scientific programming user group).

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  • @MartijnPieters Are there any suggestions as to how to re-word my question to make it more useful? Or is the message that we do not want to know whether math is useful to anyone here? Commented May 29, 2017 at 13:05
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    Asking for a list of use-cases is simply too broad. You already know why it isn't enabled, the perf penalty is simply too large. We'd have to have a significantly larger number of posts needing it for it ever to be worth-while to enable. Do you feel that there is a large enough number of types of posts? Then discuss that, bring numbers. But right now it feels like an insignificant number of posts out of the millions and millions of posts here.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented May 29, 2017 at 13:09
  • @MartijnPieters thank you for this comment. But I feel you have completely misunderstood my question (and hence closed it). I am not interested in "bringing MathJax to SO". As you say, this has been covered extensively, as well as the reasons for it. The question I'm asking here is exactly the one you flag yourself: "Do you think the need is significant? Discuss that, bring numbers. Otherwise it feels the need is insignificant". This is what this post is. An attempt to "bring numbers" and examples from people who feel the issue is important. How we fix it if it is is another matter! Commented May 29, 2017 at 13:14
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    Yes, I know what your goal is, but asking for people to post use cases is too broad. And it's not about the number of use-cases anyway; it is about pure quantity. What ballpark percentage of posts do you think would benefit from using mathjax or similar tech? Even if that was 10%, I'm not sure that the perf penalty is worth inflicting on the other 90% of posts.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented May 29, 2017 at 13:17
  • @MartijnPieters Fair enough, thank you. Though, as I said, this is not about MathJax or the perf penalty related to it. I'm literally linking to my workaround in the question! So the question being broad by nature is one thing, but if your concern is that "no amount of evidence would justify the MathJax perf penalty hence this discussion is irrelevant", then I'm just pointing out this really isn't the issue here. Commented May 29, 2017 at 13:28
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    As for "pure quantity", I disagree with this. You will find that scientific programming questions are far less in volume (and in votes!). A typical average c++ question will garner votes in the hundreds; a typical matlab question is typically less than 10. But scientific programming is an important aspect of this community, and a large portion of scientific programming questions would benefit from math notation. The fact that math notation is rarely needed in c++ / java framework questions which are overrepresented in SO, doesn't mean it's not a real problem for specific subgroups here. Commented May 29, 2017 at 13:30
  • I can't think of a lot of use cases - personally I never needed more math than ⅗√⁽ⁱ⁺⁵⁾⁄₍ₐ₊₆₎, but I can certainly imagine that if MathJax were allowed, we would have many examples of its use by now on SO, all of them very useful and illustrating why we couldn't do without it!
    – Mr Lister
    Commented May 29, 2017 at 14:16
  • It doesn't really seem like you're trying to solicit meaningful discussion here, and with your penchant to edit your title in strange and unfruitful ways, I've decided to help close this question. Please don't edit your question in that way again; it's not going to help this question at all.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 16:53
  • don't know where my previous comment went but, sorry about the edit. I just felt the edit made by the other user was not constructive so I rolled back. I commented to say that since you think the edit was constructive I won't rollback again, but, eh, since you closed, so be it :) Commented May 30, 2017 at 16:56

2 Answers 2

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In my five and a half years on Stack Overflow, and of the 25 posts I've made with pictures on it (chiefly answers), I see exactly two instances in which I've ever made use of any TeX.

Example 1

Example 2

I've even authored some details on how one could include TeX in their question/answer, which predates your workaround by at least a year. It's effectively the same thing: if you want TeX, you take a picture of it and embed it.

Stack Overflow does not deal with math as its primary focus. Stack Overflow shouldn't deal with math as its primary focus. It's very much the case that it comes up now and again, but I really don't want to incur a 20% penalty every time I load a question without TeX.

To put a narrower perspective on it: given that my TeX content are answers, and given my rate of answering ~450 answers a year, that means I'd benefit from the additional boost of having TeX around 0.4% of the time, whereas I'd incur the performance hit 99.6% of the time instead.

No thanks! I think the workaround is fine. If one needs to ask math-oriented programming questions, then perhaps they should look to see if their question fits on Computer Science.SE instead.

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    Or on Computational Science or Signal Processing ...
    – user6655984
    Commented May 29, 2017 at 19:25
  • @Gerry: I singled out Computer Science specifically because the questions I answered lend itself more to CS discussions than anything else.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 29, 2017 at 19:26
  • -1 - Why would you "incur a 20% penalty every time you load a question without Tex" if MathJax is not involved? You are answering a different question! Do you have any comments relevant to the question I asked? (i.e. examples where your answer would suffer, not examples where it doesn't!). If your expertise on Stack Overflow is not one that involves questions likely to have maths (albeit in the context of legitimate SO questions), then your personal experience isn't really relevant here. If anything your answer says to me "Even I, a non expert has needed math on occasion". Commented May 29, 2017 at 23:21
  • Not to mention, the goals of Computer Science SE and the like are very different from SO. I find it highly inappropriate to migrate questions that are appropriate for SO and inappropriate for CS, just from a desire for math notation to be involved in the appropriate phrasing of a question / answer. Commented May 29, 2017 at 23:36
  • @TasosPapastylianou: Right...so, in turn: I have answered your question. You asked if there were use cases in which TeX was needed/used, and I have illustrated them. I'm a very small sample size, but I would strongly suspect that there are a significantly small portion of users who would actively post math formulas. The penalty comes from turning it on at all; it isn't like it can be selectively enabled. Also, sites that use TeX/MathJax enjoy fractions less traffic than Stack Overflow, which has a mandate to be very responsive.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 29, 2017 at 23:41
  • @TasosPapastylianou: I illustrate that the workaround is fine since there's no real reason to move on MathJax/TeX on Stack Overflow at all. I'm not convinced, after five or so years, that needing to render algorithms or formulae are useful in its limited space here on SO. Lastly, I highlighted Computer Science due to the nature of questions related to Big-O. Chiefly that's where I'd expect users to want for TeX, and depending on how much science and how little programming is involved, it'd probably find a better home there.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 29, 2017 at 23:42
  • @TasosPapastylianou: Lastly, and I do feel like I need to highlight this to you - this is a wide-reaching change you're talking about. Devs have already tested the load when there was nothing to do on the site. Imagine if there was actually something for MathJax to render; I wouldn't want to wait five seconds for every page load just because one dev out of 10,000 others decided to ask with an algorithm, when everyone else is content to post code. This optimization isn't worth it.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 29, 2017 at 23:44
  • @Makoto Oh for the love of ... I agree MathJax is not the solution! Why are people coming back to that?!? I'm more concerned with the fact that people are claiming there is no problem! My interest here is to enable people who require math to raise their voice. NOT to promote MathJax. F*** MathJax! Kill it in a fire! I honestly don't care! The question is not about MathJax! In fact, right about now, I hate MathJax with a passion! Commented May 29, 2017 at 23:47
  • @TasosPapastylianou: It's part of their stack. Regardless of your passion for or against it, it's what they're using, and that's kind of what you have to deal with. I don't see you actually suggesting an alternative, but here's another post which does. I'd also encourage you to settle down a bit; this isn't something to get so riled up over.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 29, 2017 at 23:49
  • @Makoto I'm not suggesting an alternative because my aim is to gauge if there's a problem requiring a solution in the first place, and if so the exact nature of it, which I felt is knowledge that would be of value to the community to address this criticism once and for all. Sorry about the outburst ... but I've spent the last 2 days dodging comments about "the unsuitability of MathJax", when the post has absolutely nothing to do with it. The kind of rancid general reaction I've received on this post is probably the single most upsetting experience I've had in SO so far, but yes, sorry. :/ Commented May 30, 2017 at 1:06
  • Looking at this only response (appart yours), it doesn't seem to be a problem requiring a solution.
    – Veve
    Commented May 30, 2017 at 9:20
  • @Makoto sorry about that. I didn't feel the edit was constructive; but since you seem to think it was I won't rollback. Commented May 30, 2017 at 16:53
  • Those pictures are absolutely horrendous (at least in Dark Mode). I suggest that you fix them.
    – Nike
    Commented May 18, 2023 at 20:20
  • @Nike: You can edit them; I'll welcome it if you're so inclined to see them improved
    – Makoto
    Commented May 20, 2023 at 20:48
  • @Makoto are you inclined to see them improved? Have you seen their appearance in dark mode?
    – Nike
    Commented May 20, 2023 at 21:26
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Here's some personal examples from my own profile, just to show you what I mean / expect as an answer:

Feel free to "attack". This is the point of the post. To see whether questions / answers like these show whether math notation enhanced those answers or not, or whether they belonged to another forum in the first place, as per the arguments.

I feel obliged to repeat, this post is not about mathjax or what the best solution to this problem is. This is a post about trying to figure out from users when and where they've felt compelled to use math notation, whether the community deems such examples to be appropriate uses of math notation or not in the context of SO, and to therefore figure out whether there's a problem that requires a solution in the first place. (and if it does then we can start talking about how crap MathJax is and whether we should consider alternatives or not). But until one figures out whether there's a problem, and if so what is the exact nature of it, discussing the merits and demerits of a particular solution is irrelevant.

And no, loud protestations from people who don't need math notation is not evidence that this is not a problem, any more than loud protestations from people who desire it being evidence that it is. So let's talk about numbers, appropriateness of examples, math notation impact in those examples, and evidence of use and necessity instead, to define whether there is a problem in the first place.

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