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Does the tour page actually give you enough information to use the site well?

Take, for example, the fact that Stack Overflow isn't a discussion forum: "This site is all about getting answers. It's not a discussion forum. There's no chit-chat." Can you actually reasonably infer from that how, exactly, Stack Overflow differs from a discussion forum? And what, exactly, constitutes "chit-chat"? Are "me too!" comments posted as answers chit-chat, for example? Are requests for clarification posted as answers chit-chat?

In terms of formulating questions, it has a brief discussion of what you should and shouldn't ask about here. For example, it advises not to ask about "Product or service recommendations or comparisons" - but is this really enough to realize that things like library recommendation requests are off-topic? For example, is a request for a tutorial actually a "product or service recommendation"? (Incidentally, I recently saw a post asking for a library recommendation from a new user who had earned the Informed badge 36 minutes before posting).

Obviously, this isn't nearly enough information to realize what constitutes a good, on-topic question. At a minimum, it seems like it should directly link to the on-topic guide, the How to Ask page, and the article on how to construct a Minimal, Verifiable, and Complete Example in that section. (In fact, I read an answer on SO Meta awhile back - which I've unfortunately been unable to locate - that showed that new users with the "Informed" badge are only approximately 2% less likely to have their questions closed, and it's unclear if the tour page was the actual cause of that).

It does contain a generic link to the help center at the end, but that's not enough to tell which articles there are actually important to read (or even why you'd need more details in order to be able to start using the site). Four of those articles in particular (On-Topic Guide, How to Ask, MVCE, and How to Answer) would probably be enough to eliminate most of the Close and VLQ queue.

Obviously, the site tour won't actually be enough information in and of itself - it can't include everything - but should it be expanded to include at least those items?

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    I didn't down vote your Q&A but I might for various reasons. The title of the question is too long AND says nothing about what it's actually about. The Q itself is very rambling and extremely specific. You might be answering a general question but at a glance it appeared to be something so specific that it's probably only useful to you. I reads more like a blog post than a Q&A for SO. I hope that's constructive info. It's awesome that you want to help people out and share knowledge. It sucks that easiest way to give feedback is just to downvote and/or close. People are busy tho so they pick ez
    – gman
    Apr 17, 2017 at 7:05
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    I downvote and/or close without comment not because it's "ez" but because the downvote is clearly defined as stating the question lacks research effort, is unclear, or is not useful. The close reasons are clear and presented to the user when the question is put on hold. I agree that the tour could be more informative, but you just can't put everything in it, if for no other reason than even fewer people will read it. They'll click through enough until they get the badge. Apr 17, 2017 at 14:15
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    @MikeMcCaughan I disagree with you about downvotes - there are lots of reasons you might downvote a post, so it may not always be obvious (especially to new users) exactly why their question (or answer) is getting downvotes. I still think that it's helpful to explain exactly why you think a post is unclear (or poorly researched) so that the OP can improve. For example, when I was new here I got downvotes on an answer because I was flat-out wrong; I wouldn't have known that unless someone had explained my mistake, though, and I was able to correct my answer based on the feedback. Apr 18, 2017 at 15:45
  • And not every downvoter needs to leave a comment. Just one of them. Some explanation as to why, even if it's just "please do some research first." I've seen more than a handful of questions (or answers), and on one occasion my own, where there were several downvotes with no comment. An error might be obvious to you, the downvoter, but not to anyone else. If there's no comment already explaining the low quality, comment, then downvote. I've been around a while and I still see downvotes cast that make me scratch my head. Apr 21, 2017 at 13:38

2 Answers 2

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As a newbie user, I would say no.

A week ago, I posted a question that I already had the answer to. It was a non trivial answer that took me a few hours to figure out, so why not help other people out and document this?

So I posted my question and self-answer. The form to fill out the question is basic on instructions, asking for questions to be specific and answerable. So I do my best to meet this criteria.

First thing that happens is it gets downvoted, with the user saying it was a possible duplicate. I had already checked that question out and it wasn't related to my issue. I updated my question clarifying this.

This is where I first learned you cannot directly message other users, so you can only hope after you update your question that the other user will see it and remove the downvote.

The next day, my question gets marked as "on hold" and off topic, apparently because the question itself does not have code snippets and working example of the problem. I had put the key code snippet to solve the issue, along with a working example, in my answer. Anybody who had read both the question and answer wouldn't have a problem, so (as a newbie) I thought this wouldn't be an issue.

I update my question with code snippets and working example of problem. Because you cannot directly communicate with other users, I cross my fingers that my edits will be enough to undo the block.

I checked the status today, and it is now marked as closed (off-topic), with no response in regards to my last set of edits. I am not even sure if anyone saw it, or "on hold" gets turned to "closed" after a few days. I cannot contact the users who block it, so my little attempt at helping others out and documenting knowledge learned, has resulted in failure. I have probably spent over an hour fine-tuning my question/answer to get it right; all time wasted.

As a newbie, this is not a positive experience, and I don't have much interest in finding out all the other ways I can expect to get burned by using this site.

A couple of suggestions:

  • If code snippets and a working example are required in questions, then this should be mentioned when filling out the question.
  • It should be possible to directly communicate with others, at least when it comes to petitioning the status of a question.
  • Downvotes should require short explanation, with chance to respond. This would open up communication for mistaken downvotes (like if question is possible duplicate).
  • If you are answering your own question, why do you have to wait 2 days to mark it as answered?
  • There should be a lower bar for following stackoverflow decorum when a user just wants to do document a snippet of knowledge. The purpose is to let people quickly document solutions to non-trivial problems. If it is an uphill battle to do this, people aren't going to spend the time and trouble doing it.
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    Good points. I agree about downvotes, I've always thought that it's rude and counterproductive to downvote without explanation. Apr 16, 2017 at 22:49
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    I think that the question you link to is reasonable too - I think that people tend to be too harsh about self-answered questions, which I don't understand because it's beneficial to the community. I voted to re-open the question, I think that it shouldn't have been closed to begin with. Apr 16, 2017 at 22:51
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    For future reference, using @ and the username in comments will notify a commenter, an editor, or a mod or gold-badge-holder who closed the question. (Not other close voters or downvoters, though.) Not sure how to make this more obvious in the tour, but it couldn't hurt. (Requiring downvoters to supply a comment has been hashed out at great length, and rejected many times for its counterproductive side effects.) Apr 16, 2017 at 22:51
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    Very good to know about the @ username. That would have helped me out a lot. It would be helpful to have reply button next to username in a comment; when you press it, it starts a new comment that prefills with @ username. Also, thank you @ejoshuas for giving my question a second look; I understand better how to format questions and it's nice to get a second chance.
    – Mike
    Apr 16, 2017 at 23:06
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    Isn't this obvious? Like the @ before a username? That is very common in most forum and online-community software. Shouldn't one infer that a user should at least a minimum of online-experience before starting threads on SO? I might be a bit tired of hand-holding everyone, but I for one expect users to read not only the tour, but actually read the help-section before they start asking questions. Maybe have a look at highly voted questions and answers before making their own, and so on. I have my share of mistakes on SO, by all means, but there is a lot of bad Q & A out there. Apr 17, 2017 at 10:02
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    I'm not sure why you find it surprising that a question would need to actually contain enough information for it to be answered (which frequently entails showing the code you have a problem with, so that it can reproduce the problem) but regardless that information is described in the help center. If someone needs to read your answer in order to understand the question, then that is a bad question, and it's expected that the feedback reflect that.
    – Servy
    Apr 17, 2017 at 14:28
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    The "downvotes should require explanation" complaint is something that's been brought up many thousands of times. You can do simple search if you want to see why it's a really bad idea. You can do the same to see why you have to wait to accept an answer, although that's not nearly as frequent of a duplicate.
    – Servy
    Apr 17, 2017 at 14:30
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    @aw04 If the point this is trying to express is that updating a question is pointless, then this is a fantastic counterexample. The question had problems, was informed of such, was edited to address those problems, and was reopened. The example demonstrates that actually fixing the problems in your question isn't pointless.
    – Servy
    Apr 17, 2017 at 15:02
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    @Servy You missed a step -> post something to meta to call attention to your question. I don't imagine you're advocating that posting to meta is a sustainable part of that process (see comments above where people are voting to reopen, suggesting the meta effect is reason for the turnaround)
    – aw04
    Apr 17, 2017 at 15:11
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    @aw04 I'm sure the post has gotten more votes in total as a result of the meta question, sure. It only had like 1 downvote at the time he posted, so it's not like you need to get a posse together to get the question back to a positive score if it's actually improved.
    – Servy
    Apr 17, 2017 at 15:23
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    If you are answering your own question, why do you have to wait 2 days to mark it as answered? To give other users a chance to answer it. I think a lot of the trouble you ran into is that you assumed that because you were answering the question yourself, you didn't need to make sure other users could answer it as well.
    – BSMP
    Apr 17, 2017 at 16:45
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    @junkfoodjunkie: It's not obvious at all. Most forums I've seen don't support @ for replies. Reddit doesn't use @. No comment system I've seen on any blog, news site, or webcomic uses @. IRC doesn't use @. StackExchange comments are the only system I can think of that uses @. There is literally nothing in the interface that suggests @ does anything until you actually type @, and even then, the system only suggests @ing other commenters. Maybe you've seen a ton of @ systems, but if so, you use a very different set of internet communities from me. Apr 17, 2017 at 22:03
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    @junkfoodjunkie: Yep, that's a very different set of internet communities from what I use. I'm on one Xenforo site and none of the others, and I've never even heard of XDA. Some quick research seems to indicate that most of those systems let you @ pretty much anyone anywhere, unlike StackExchange, so people relying on their experience from other sites are still going to get it wrong. They won't even know they're getting it wrong, because there's no indication whether or not you've successfully pinged someone. Apr 17, 2017 at 23:26
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    We shouldn't rely on people being on the "right" non-StackExchange sites and correctly guessing exactly which parts of their previous experience should transfer over. The UX should be usable for people who don't have a Facebook or Twitter account. Apr 17, 2017 at 23:32
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    I'm sorry. I think knowing, and if you don't know, experiment, should be a staple. Yes, I understand that the level of knowledge differs, but seriously... This is a site for advanced programming problems (and answers). Quite a bit of what you find here is easily solved by RTFM, or Googling. Quicker too. Maybe I use too much time online, but having knowledge about how things might work is just as important when it comes to figuring out stuff do work. Also, there is a help-section. Apr 17, 2017 at 23:36
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Does the tour page actually give you enough information to use the site well?

No, but the tour page is also not intended to give you enough information to use the site well.

The last button of the tour reads

Looking for more in-depth information on the site? Visit the Help center

The help center is where you have enough information to use the site well.

Maybe your question is whether the tour page should provide this information. I do not think so: you can not expect a tour page of a tool to be a source of documentation on how to use that tool well.

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    Perhaps we should only give the informed badge to people who read the help center :)
    – RyanZim
    Apr 17, 2017 at 14:25
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    I think the tour could definitely be more clear, though. For example, they don't give any details about what constitutes "chit-chat" - they could at least include a few examples or something. Apr 17, 2017 at 18:34

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