-26

I have seen multiple times recently where drive-by reviewers are flagging or voting things very incorrectly. When this happens, I can often see how the mistake could have been made, but only if the person is not comprehending the post that they are taking action on before taking the action. This has happened to at least the last 3 posts that I have participated in, and I have seen it in other posts that I have lurked at.

I will give two examples:

Example 1: I asked a question last year, got 1 answer which did not answer my question fully enough that I felt the green check mark was appropriate. We went back and forth in the comments a few times before the answerer gave a comment which satisfied me. I told that person I would accept their answer if the comment were added to the question. Months later I decide I really want to be able to accept the answer, so I edited the answer to include the answerer's own comment into the answer, which really should have been part of the answer to begin with.

This edit was refused with a reason stating that it significantly changed the answerer in a way that is not in line with the answerer's intent. That is a long stretch since the comment by itself would have made a better answer to my question than the original answer, and it was the answerer's comment to begin with.

That Q/A is here. "gcc/g++ not producing debug symbols for variables"

Example 2: This one is even less debatable and a better example. I answered a question, and the question was marked a duplicate of a completely different question. The question was not at all the same in any way. I can see how the mistake could be made if the reviewer misunderstood the title and did not examine the question, the comments, or the answer, but it is still a mistake made from skimming the cover and not paying enough attention, seeing merely that the word "swap" happened to be used and assuming it meant "make a=b and b=a" despite the question's explanation and code sample.

Note that the usage of the word swap in this question was not incorrect either. The question-asker has since changed the wording anyway, despite the original wording being just as correct.

That Q/A is here. "What is the correct and efficient way to reassign new ArrayList? [duplicate]"


In both edits I have suggested this week (example 1 being one of them), reviewers declined them, but fortunately in both cases the owners of the posts agreed with me and overruled that, even the case of the months-old answer that I thought was abandoned.

Question:

Should reviewers be required to understand at least the basics of the item they are reviewing, or should reviewers risk drive-by no-context moderation to keep up with the queue?

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    You are talking about edit reviewers, which are normal users with sufficient reputation (2000). Nothing to do with Moderators, it is part of community moderation. Did you make your change comment clear? Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 17:43
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    @Aaron The action is a moderation action, yes, but the person performing it is not a moderator. Claiming that they are both demonstrates that you don't understand the site that you're attempting to critique, and is going to cause confusion in your readers. Knowingly using incorrect terminology isn't going to help you get your point across.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 17:53
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    @Aaron You know what a moderator is here. You know that the actions taken by the users you described weren't moderators. You called them moderators anyway. You knowingly used incorrect terminology. That's only ever going to harm your point here. If you want to propose SE start referring to every single user as a moderator, and come up with a new word for the people currently called "moderators", I guess you could propose it (I don't have high hopes for you) but just intentionally using incorrect terms will, again, at best just confuse your readers, and at worst make you look uninformed.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:05
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    @Aaron Telling people that you're going to intentionally use incorrect terms because you feel like it is likely going to hurt you just as much, if not more.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:07
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    Y'know, at first I thought you were just flaming users - it certainly comes across as that - but it seems like you've raised a couple of genuine concerns. I'll try to address them before the question gets closed, but no guarantees...
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:14
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    @Aaron: yet on this site we use terms less easily confused. The shorter term moderators generally refers to the diamond moderators or elected moderators. The community moderation actions are narrowed down to the actual actions taken. In this case you are talking about reviewers. Other subgroups might be flaggers, dupe hammerers, close voters, etc. That ensures there is no ambiguity as to what specific task you are talking about here. Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:14
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    You don't like the dupe for the second example? Here's another one. There are so many posts discussing how variable assignment works and how addAll works. We don't need more. Move your answer to those other established ones. Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:16
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    @Aaron: each of those community moderator groups has a different make-up, mostly because through the reputation system, different users get access to a different mix of those abilities (you can wield a dupe hammer in a specific tag without being able to review tag wiki edits, for example). Being precise about what kind of community moderation you are addressing here is therefor important, because that defines the context of your question. Using the term moderators puts your post in the wrong context here. Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:19
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    @Aaron - essentially your request is "robo-reviewers should stop robo reviewing". If you would propose sensible solution for that you'd get way better reaction... So far none was found... Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:22
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    Example one is unfortunate, as you're taking the right action. That information should be in the answer, not in a comment on the answer. Changing answers to include additional info is generally frowned upon. So it's not surprising a reviewer might not understand the full context and reject. Comments aren't included in the review queue, so you'd have to add lots of clarification in the edit comment, and even then it might not help. (aaah, you did, and it didn't)
    – user1228
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:24
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    @Servy ,vaultah ,Toto Concerning your on-hold reason... This question specifically seeks to elicit discussion from the community. As for the link you provided ("What is meta and how does it work?"), I quote from it: "Meta invites the community to discuss, debate and propose changes to the way the community itself behaves" That is exactly the point of this question. This question seeks to discuss, debate and propose changes to the way the community itself behaves. The reason provided and materials linked to suggest that this is a model question.
    – Loduwijk
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 19:23
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    @Aaron You've made it very clear, both in your question, and in your comments, that you're just here to vent, and you're not actually here to hold a constructive discussion on the topic, and no, you aren't proposing anything, you're just complaining about something you don't like, hence the closure.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 19:26
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    @Servy I want to continue with you, but I doubt that would accomplish much. I will just leave you with the note that you are completely, utterly, 100% wrong about the "you're not actually here to hold a constructive discussion on the topic," and "you're just complaining about something you don't like" I was here with the exact purpose of discussing the topic, and I was specifically trying to help. There was 0 non-discussion / complaining involved. Unfortunately, very few people (Thank you Makoto) provided any real discussion about the question itself. Oh well. I tried.
    – Loduwijk
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 19:44
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    Your question—while mentioning specific problems—doesn't speak to a specific issue other than the fact that you think all reviewers suck at reviewing (sorry, moderators suck at moderating if we go with what you insist be used as terminology). The fact of the matter is that—while some reviewers do suck at reviewing—there is no evidence to suggest that all or even the majority of reviewers suck at reviewing. You have phrased your post to make sweeping accusations in an inflammatory manner. Doing that will undoubtedly cause friction with the community.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 20:09
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    Regardless of how you think your post should be interpreted, the only thing that matters is how the rest of the community interprets your post. I knew your post was going nowhere fast as soon as I saw the title.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 20:48

2 Answers 2

5

For your first example, this situation isn't new. Edits that come from comments are often rejected because the reviewers aren't paying close enough attention to the context.

The worst part is that you did highlight where the new info came from, but it seems like the reviewers were on autopilot there.

Just know that you don't ever have to accept an answer, nor should you feel obligated to accept an answer. If you want to make an edit to an answer from any context, do so because it's the appropriate thing to do, and not because you have you hand out a green checkmark.

To your second example, the question reads a bit confusing; it's not immediately clear to me if the OP is talking about swapping elements or swapping reference points. (It's likely they're talking about swapping elements, so the duplicate would suffice, but they should be clear on this point.) For now I tacitly agree with the dupe closure (although I really wish we wouldn't be so damned hasty in deleting questions like this before the OP has a logical chance to edit it); if they can edit the question to be clearer in intent, then perhaps it could be reopened.

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  • The dupe in the 2nd example address the pass by value issue in that question. The original question here assigns to a static field. That part is off, sure. Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:23
  • @SotiriosDelimanolis: Truth be told, I'm trying to answer "WTF are they doing" before I say definitively "this looks to be the same question", which is why I tacitly agreed with the dupe closure. It's closed correctly for almost the wrong reason.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:27
  • @Makoto That's just it: the question for example 2 is specifically not doing a "a=b and b=a" kind of swap. It is just doing a "a=b, and b=b (still)". It is not "swapping the places of a and b," but rather it is "swapping out the value of a to replace it with b, but b stays the same." The question is specifically "which of these two ways is better?" The question asker must have noticed the confusion and eventually edited to change "swap" to "reassign" to clarify.
    – Loduwijk
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:36
  • @Aaron: It's too confusing to me to say definitively one way or another if they're asking this question. They're asking some kind of question but again, it doesn't make a lick of sense to me what kind of "swap" they're doing. They need to come back and edit that question (provided it doesn't somehow get deleted...) to clarify that point.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:39
  • @Makoto Did you look at the code? The question does not ask for any help with code that does not work, rather it asks "I have two ways I am doing this. Which one is more efficient?" Though, to even ask which one is more efficient does demonstrate a high lack of understanding for the language, in which case the code might not even do what the questioner thinks it does. I do not see how the question is unclear, especially given the code, unless you suggest the asker is completely mistaken about their code; a complete possibility for a new programmer, but not something that should be assumed.
    – Loduwijk
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 19:12
  • @Aaron: Yes, I looked at the code. That's why I'm confused. They're asking about a way to reassign a collection, which in and of itself makes little actual sense - you use = to accomplish this, but seriously what for? - and they present both the = method to use this and they wipe out their other, original collection and replace it with another. This is why I said it seemed like they were asking to swap elements instead of reference points, which is why the dupe makes sense. Asking which is "best" between two completely orthogonal approaches isn't a useful or even viable question.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 19:26
-15

I have seen this problem around for a while, and my opinion is it seemed excessive on Stack Overflow, but now it is to the point where it is difficult to step anywhere on the site without seeing this kind of disregard. Over-moderation can be just as detrimental to a site as under-moderation.

It is a good thing that these moderators are trying to help out and they should be commended for cleaning up the site, but they do need to slow down enough that they don't cause a lot of new problems to take the place of the problems they are dealing with.

Can a message be sent to certain people (perhaps automatically when flagged, or based on a referral system, or maybe other moderators have such an ability...), or to everyone if too difficult to send to 1 person, something to the effect of:

"Hey, you're making a lot of mistakes. It seems likely to me that your mistakes are caused by not understanding the context of your target well enough. I suggest you take a moment to review enough of the facts (i.e.: skim over the answers a question got, look at the description for the edit, maybe glance at the comments which might address the very thing you're taking action about) that you can make a sound judgement."


To clarify in response to Clive's comment, "Can you quantify that? How fast are they going versus how fast should they be going? Relative is fine if you don't have real data but "they should slow down" doesn't really mean anything"

The speed should not be quantified to react to this. That would just cause more problems through over-moderating the moderators which would be ironic, given my question. X actions per minute restrictions on moderation would be a bad thing.

"How fast are they going..." - fast enough that they don't comprehend the item they are moderating as is evidenced by their actions. "... versus how fast should they be going?" - slow enough that they understand the item, whatever speed that is.

These are humans, not robots. We do not program them to work at X speed to maximize efficiency while minimizing errors. Instead, we expect them to use their brain. Treat them like humans.

"They should slow down" means everything, not nothing. On the contrary, if you make an effort to let moderators know that their error rate is getting too high, as I am trying to do here, then any of them who care about the quality of Stack Overflow will try to self-check and adjust their actions if necessary.

If this was a request for "Make sure moderators don't do > X actions per minute" that would be a feature request. That is not what this is, instead it is a discussion, hence the tag, and I am addressing my peers in a civilized manner as fellow humans.

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    Can you quantify that? How fast are they going versus how fast should they be going? Relative is fine if you don't have real data but "they should slow down" doesn't really mean anything
    – Clive
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 17:46
  • @Clive My response to that makes a reasonable addition to my answer. Edited
    – Loduwijk
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 17:59
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    I'm fairly certain that we're still in the "under-moderation" zone
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:00
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    Tens of thousands of moderation actions happen every day. They aren't all going to be perfect. Saying, "I found two moderation actions I disagree with" is rather meaningless. There are systems in place to deal with the fact that moderation actions are often subjective, and some may not agree with an action taken, and even that users can simply make mistakes that need to be corrected. There are always ways to reverse any action taken, ways to deal with individual bad actors, etc.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:03
  • "These are humans, not robots" - also the people you are calling out are "robo-revieweres"... so maybe they are robot - no way to know on internet :) Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:19
  • @Servy Your initial statement is correct that "I found two moderation actions I disagree with" would have been rather meaningless, but fortunately that's not what I said. As for the second part of your comment, if there are ways to get these corrected other than posting about them in Meta, then please inform me. Or better yet, I will make a question about that. Posted: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/343508/…
    – Loduwijk
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:29
  • @AlexeiLevenkov Please elaborate on that. Are you saying that some of these actions might actually be automated, and that some of what I am pointing to could possibly be the result of an algorithm rather than a person?
    – Loduwijk
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:30
  • @Aaron Sure, what you actually said was, "here are two moderation actions that I think are wrong, should moderators moderate correctly" which is just as meaningless. Of course moderators should moderate correctly. It's not likely you're going to find people telling you that we don't want people to moderate correctly. Of course, wanting people to always moderate perfectly is simply never going to happen, so saying that you want things to be better is meaningless. If you can propose a way of actually helping people moderate better, then that could actually be useful.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:34
  • @Aaron Posting on meta because you have a specific moderation issue that you would like to discuss isn't unreasonable at all. Had you described a specific moderation issue that you disagreed and asked for help resolving the issue, that would be different. You didn't do that, you just said, "here are two things I think are wrong, now fix all moderators so that they never make mistakes ever".
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:35
  • @Servy Except that is not at all what I said. I said "I have been seeing so many mistakes recently that I feel like it's hard to go anywhere on the site without seeing them. Here are two prime examples. Now lets give all moderators a pep and hope that it reduces the number of errors." And recently for me is relative since sometimes I go long periods without acting in the site. It just seems like an extraordinarily high rate of moderation when none is necessary, or moderation when it is necessary but doing the wrong action.
    – Loduwijk
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:50
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    @Aaron Again, just saying that you want moderation to "be better" accomplishes nothing. You can want moderation to be better all you want, we all do, but just saying that you want it to be better isn't useful. If you have an actual idea for a proposal that would help improve moderation, rather than just saying that you wish such a thing existed, could actually be helpful.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 18:53
  • @Servy Despite you sounding like you're trying to argue with me, it keeps seeming like you're actually trying to support me at the same time. Once again you are suggesting that I did something I did not, then you suggest what I should do instead and that happens to be exactly what I did. I had an actual idea and a specific suggestion. Very specific and very actionable. This is the type of suggestion that people can walk away from and actually take action on, as opposed to suggestions like "Do better," which you then wonder "Ok, then how do I do better?" I am confused by your comments.
    – Loduwijk
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 19:29
  • @Aaron You did not propose any specific suggestion. You asked if reviewers should actually review correctly. The answer to this is self-evident. Of course they should review correctly. If you have a proposal to help reviewers review correctly more often, then by all means, share it, and the community can evaluate it and see if they feel it would actually help.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 19:32
  • @Aaron "robo-reviewer" is term used on Meta to describe people who blindly approving all the changes or (rarely) blindly following some personal simplified rules rather than actually understanding the change. So far there were no publicly known cases where such process was completely automated. Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 19:50
  • @Servy That was specifically and exactly what I did do. Saying to someone "Hey, you're making a lot of mistakes. It seems likely to me that your mistakes are caused by not understanding the context of your target well enough. I suggest you take a moment to review enough of the facts (ie: skim over the answers a question got, look at the description for the edit, maybe glance at the comments which might address the very thing you're taking action about) that you can make a sound judgement." I don't understand what is so difficult to understand about that. It is normal in the work place...
    – Loduwijk
    Commented Feb 10, 2017 at 20:29

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