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I edited this question Why does termcolor output control characters instead of colored text in the Windows console? so that the title reads "Why doesn't termcolor outputs colored text in the console window, but its control character instead" which is more precise and describes the issue accurately, as it conveys more information than the previous title "Why doesn't termcolor work for Python 2.7 on Windows?".

The title describes what the problem is by communicating what happens (control characters instead of colored text), what is expected to happen (colored characters), the method (using termcolor), where (console window), while the previous one only says "it doesn't work", and we all know that one of the common reasons to ask a question on the site it is that something doesn't work.

Despite all of this, I was accused of "butchering" the title, when I believe I actually conveys more information that allows people to identify easier whenever or not the question is related to their issue. What's the preference here? Personally, I sacrifice anything if I could have a descriptive and accurate title.

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  • 1
    On that same topic, I'm trying something new here: "Automatic downvote raised on line 1. Error: "meaningless title"." It worked – kind of – on How to do this operation, which got marginally improved to "How to do this list operation in python", but not (yet) on Is there something wrong with this?.
    – Jongware
    Feb 6, 2017 at 1:37
  • 14
    My use of wording was potentially a bit harsh. In terms of rolling back, it's because the two edits in combination made the post worse. Removing the tags, and adding a grammatically incorrect title which wasn't any better than the original. "Why doesn't termcolor outputs colored text in the console window, but its contrl character instead (question marks for questions)". In addition, it's hard to parse as it's a double negative, more naturally would be "Why does termcolor output control characters instead of colored text in the console window?"
    – Rob Mod
    Feb 6, 2017 at 1:47
  • 1
    .. I was reading Meta top-bottom. For others: this appears to be prompted by a complaint about a specific change. However, it may be useful to not concentrate on that single issue but more "in general", and leave comments/answers on the incident (if it can be called thus) in the other question.
    – Jongware
    Feb 6, 2017 at 1:49
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    @RadLexus sadly, that's something generalized across the site. How many times have I clicked a question since the title seems to describe my issue, just to find out that the question has nothing to do with the title. It is particularly frustrating.
    – Braiam
    Feb 6, 2017 at 2:08
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    @Rob let me see if I get you: you rolled back my title for something you were capable to fix to a worse title, that doesn't describe the issue of the question at all, and at the same time adds two irrelevant tags (cmd isn't relevant to the problem). You need to put your stuff in order.
    – Braiam
    Feb 6, 2017 at 2:44
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    @Braiam The whole point of the other post is that windows was not an irrelevant tag - as noted by the voting outcome on the other meta post, and from what I've read, neither is cmd, as the answer directly addresses the windows terminal. Removing relevant tags and not even spell checking your title edit is rollback worthy, I would argue. It certainly wouldn't (shouldn't) pass a suggested edit, which is a good bar to judge your edits by. My 'stuff' is in order, thanks.
    – Rob Mod
    Feb 6, 2017 at 2:48
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    "Don't we prefer descriptive titles over lazy ones?" Sure we do. Except the title you refer to is anything but lazy. "while the previous one only says 'it doesn't work'" No, it says "it doesn't work for [specific Python version] on Windows". It's fairly easy to deduce that a possible, and likely, meaning of "doesn't work" is "doesn't output colored text" given the entire purpose of termcolor is to, y'know, output colored text. And at the very least they included information about the environment, which is far better than the vast majority of question titles out there. Give 'em some credit.
    – BoltClock
    Feb 6, 2017 at 3:44
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    To be clear I'm not saying there's no room for improvement. But if you think that's a lazy question title, hoo boy are you in for a shock.
    – BoltClock
    Feb 6, 2017 at 3:49
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    @BoltClock and all that information is irrelevant. The issue has nothing to do with the python version, it's how termcolor tells the terminal (or in this case, the console window) how to display the colors. It's so irrelevant, that I could trivially reproduce the issue in a non-python environment.
    – Braiam
    Feb 6, 2017 at 9:51
  • @usr2564301 I think you were RadLexus, right?
    – Braiam
    Feb 6, 2017 at 10:27
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    The new title was ungrammatical, contained a spelling error, and contained a confusing reference to "its" control characters (whose?). The original title wasn't perfect, but the introduction of awful English was sufficient reason to roll back (and now we've eventually reached a title that is a good improvement on the original and doesn't introduce problems). In general, the first rule of editing that I apply is "make sure not to do anything that the original author would be embarrassed to have their name on", and introducing horribly broken English into their question title definitely counts.
    – Mark Amery
    Feb 6, 2017 at 11:43
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    @Braiam "and" I'm claiming that the damage done to the quality of the English in the title prevents the change from being an improvement and justifies the rollback, without any other considerations coming into play. You asked what the community's preference was in these cases, and I'm stating mine: to roll back (or fix) edits that badly break the English of another user's post, especially in the title, even if the edit is otherwise an improvement.
    – Mark Amery
    Feb 6, 2017 at 15:26
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    @Braiam I'm not "missing the point", I'm disagreeing with you. The detail added to the title (that the way that termcolor was not working was by outputting control characters) was unimportant, one of the details removed (that it was on Windows that this error happened) was crucial, and even if none of that was the case, adding more information to another user's title but butchering their English in the process isn't a good tradeoff.
    – Mark Amery
    Feb 6, 2017 at 15:47
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    @Braiam sigh. Yes, I concede that if you install some kind of Unix terminal on Windows and run Python through that, then Unix terminal features will be available. Likewise, you can probably produce all sorts of bugs on Linux that people claim are Windows-specific bugs by running software through Wine. Clearly, we can't possibly assume by default that somebody talking about terminal behaviour on Windows is talking about the Windows terminal, and so the reasonable thing to do is tell anyone labelling such issues as platform-specific they are talking nonsense and should "read some source code".
    – Mark Amery
    Feb 6, 2017 at 16:08
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    "It's so irrelevant, that I could trivially reproduce the issue in a non-python environment." So, since all that information is "so irrelevant" to you that you could trivially debunk it, you therefore think the asker has put no effort whatsoever into writing their question and that you can do so much better. Give yourself a pat on the back, then.
    – BoltClock
    Feb 6, 2017 at 16:54

3 Answers 3

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The more descriptive, the better.

When we were building the help and improvement queue, we originally thought of including a "strength" meter for the title of the question, similar to how you commonly see password strength visualized through some set of arbitrary criteria.

The ratio of uncommon words to common, the overall length, does it actually look like a question or does it look like a statement? This and other factors seemed interesting, but we couldn't quite come up with something that would be helpful universally, and the thought of trying to maintain different sets of criteria for different tags just seemed like way too much for the gain.

But that's really it, the more concisely you can use a sentence between (around) 60 to 100 characters (not counting spaces and punctuation) that summarizes your problem in question form, the more likely you'll be to get more answers, and get them faster. It's a definite benefit to question askers.

As others have noted, it also drastically picks up the quality of what we've got in search engine indexes, at least as far as indicating how relevant a result might be in the context of whatever you're trying to solve.

To be honest, I'd still love to make that title-strength-o-foomatic-indicatory thing.

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  • "I'd still love to make that title-strength-o-foomatic-indicatory thing" can we just issue a non-blocking warning on a extremely small sub-set of titles instead of shoving it to triage? I feel that we are missing out a huge opportunity here and until there are filters for triage our best bet is that the asker could summarize the issue in the title.
    – Braiam
    Feb 6, 2017 at 10:20
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    @Braiam We experimented with that a few times over the years and .. we learned that folks are much better at beating a regex than they are actually writing good titles. That's kinda what led to us showing some kind of indicator that people would want to move if they saw it was low.
    – Tim Post
    Feb 6, 2017 at 12:35
  • I was thinking about the "ratio of uncommon words to common" as the score.
    – Braiam
    Feb 6, 2017 at 13:07
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    @Braiam That alone yielded .. kind of meh. The real problem surfaced when we started drilling into Android / IOS and got clear signal that as far as common words go, certain tags tend to have way more 'common' words above what English itself does. But then again, we didn't have a whole data science team back then so ... I've set a calendar thing to bump it again for me in a few months once things are slightly less crazy on their end.
    – Tim Post
    Feb 6, 2017 at 17:15
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Don't we prefer descriptive titles over lazy ones?

We sure do! Though I wouldn't go as far as calling the original title "lazy", I fully agree that it is always worth to look for ways of improving titles. That said, let's compare original title...

Why doesn't termcolor work for Python 2.7 on Windows?

... with the proposed one (using Rob's variant without the double negative):

Why does termcolor output control characters instead of colored text in the console window?

On the one hand, the proposed title does describe the issue better. On the other hand, it leaves out the environment in which the issue appeared (Python 2.7 and Windows). We might trying adding it back...

Why does termcolor for Python 2.7 output control characters instead of colored text in the console window on Windows?

... but the result is uncomfortably long. Not all is lost, however. Firstly, there is no significant loss of clarity if we replace "console window" with "console". Secondly, given that the accepted solution isn't specific to Python 2.7, it is in all likelihood okay to drop "Python 2.7" from the title. That brings forth...

Why does termcolor output control characters instead of colored text in the Windows console?

... which is (approximately) what I have just changed the title to. Case closed?

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    One might argue that information about the environment is already reflected in the tags. But by that logic you might as well retitle it to "Why doesn't this work?" since everything is reflected in the tags.
    – BoltClock
    Feb 6, 2017 at 3:39
  • @BoltClock Yup, a little redundancy doesn't hurt. (Personally, when I am watching a feed of questions I notice the title at least a few seconds before the tags, though I'm not entirely sure of how usual that behaviour is.)
    – duplode
    Feb 6, 2017 at 3:46
  • I think pretty much everyone does that.
    – BoltClock
    Feb 6, 2017 at 3:52
  • Me personally I look at the tags only when the title is too unclear. I'd rather have the title spill it out, much easier to skim listings that way.
    – Gimby
    Feb 6, 2017 at 8:23
  • "using Rob's variant without the double negative" it's my title, actually.
    – Braiam
    Feb 6, 2017 at 9:52
  • I feel that mentioning console window somewhere it is more important: the problem is that the console window doesn't interpret the ansi escape codes the same way other terminals do, ie. Cygwin Terminal. Saying only "terminal" may imply that on any terminal running on Windows would have the same issue. This can be seen reflected on the comment on colorama, which is why I preferred not using terminal.
    – Braiam
    Feb 6, 2017 at 10:13
  • I agree that "console" is better than "terminal", since that's what Windows actually calls it. But wow, how many cycles of iteration does a question title realistically need to go through? Feb 6, 2017 at 13:13
  • @Braiam "it's my title, actually" -- That's why I said "Rob's variant" -- variant of your title.
    – duplode
    Feb 6, 2017 at 15:38
  • Braiam and @CodyGray , you are right about console vs. terminal. Another reason I thought of changing that was the mention of Far Manager, but I had forgotten that said program simply uses the same console.
    – duplode
    Feb 6, 2017 at 15:38
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Personally, I prefer precise and compressive titles even if they are verbose. There's nothing more annoying that coming from a search engine with a title that promises one thing, but the body is another, or worse yet, a title that doesn't describe the issue and you can't identify it and potentially missing important information that helps you to solve the issue.

Saying "doesn't work" in any of its incarnations is a waste of reading time as that one of the main reasons why would people ask questions on this site. It's better if the title describe what doesn't work or in what way, like including the error message on the title, as there are many examples on the site, or describing the (un)expected result, as the questions asking "why X happens". Preferring the later to the former makes the questions easier to find in the long run, it's sad that most askers doesn't do this from the start.

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  • Why this netted so many downvotes, I will probably never understand.
    – Gimby
    Feb 7, 2017 at 9:53
  • @Gimby the cost of being popular :P
    – Braiam
    Feb 7, 2017 at 12:37

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