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Not everybody does (or can) think or work the same way as everyone else. I can get good results but I've never been able to do it quickly or head on. I just have never been able to get things right the first time in many cases. I make a lot of mistakes. I have some good days and a lot of bad days.

I've only been able to get around that problem and get good results with a lot of determination and a lot of iteration. Way more than other people find normal, or even understand usually. And that includes not only my answers to questions here, but everything in life. I have really struggled with this and often been misunderstood.

I probably don't have classic OCD or full-blown ADD, but I am sure I am much further along those spectrums than the average person, and I have struggled with it all my life and it has made things very difficult. I have to constantly manage it. I just want to make good contributions.

I have been editing a question iteratively trying to perfect it putting hours in for a few days, and was pretty much wrapping it up today. But I've always done that here and didn't know it was a problem. I edit it, look at it for awhile see something else to fix and just keep going at it. Just a lot of little changes until I can see it because I can't see everything clearly in one or two sittings because I can't keep my attention on enough details at once consistently. Just trying to make it look good, say things right for a respectable answer.

I just got PM'd by a moderator who said I was excessive and he thought I was trying to get attention to nudge out other posts and editing makes it come up front and disrupts annoys others. I was not aware of that. It was never my intention and I would not want to do that.

I just wish there was some way that I could work like that without people getting upset or it interfering with others or site operations. Like maybe a draft area where one could work on an edit for awhile, days maybe, before committing it, along with with a good side-by-side preview area or something. I just don't think people should be punished for working or thinking differently. I don't think letting people at least try to improve their answers in whatever way they can would or should be a bad thing. Wouldn't it just improve the site while helping others, and even the contributors and in the long run tend to improve the quality of the site? Maybe I can't work as fast or keep up with the prototypal programmer or expert here, but I still think I can be of assistance and create things of value. I want to.

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    When I saw the question title, and the username, I knew that this wasn't going to be your typical accessibility question. I'm not sure if I should be relieved or intrigued. (And I say this as someone that's also firmly on the spectrum.)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 6:39
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    Yes, it's an area of accessibility that hasn't received as much attention. There's lots of information out there about screen readers for persons with visual and/or cognitive problems that interfere with reading, one-handed keyboards for persons who can only use one hand, closed-captioning for persons with difficulty hearing, and similar adaptive technology. Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 6:42
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    @Robert Columbia: >tfw your invisible disability is so invisible, even technology can't see it
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 6:50
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    One issue here is the markup language is unique to Stack Overflow and we have to edit in an open browser window/tab and only have the choice of committing the edit or abandoning it, or risk leaving an unclosed edit session floating indefinitely while dealing with life. That's why I thought a feature where people could to work on drafts would be very helpful since the moderator said a "minor edit" feature is always rejected here, prone to abuse (how, I don't know).
    – clearlight
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 6:50
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    @BoltClock, right now, I can think clearly. Things are coming out well and easily, but it's lucky rare and cyclical. But it's like Memento, tomorrow I may be all thumbs and making a ton of mistakes again. I have to work myself up with a lot of effort to a high rev before this happens and I can't always do it on any given day.
    – clearlight
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 6:52
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    @clearlight: In exactly the manner the moderator described to you in their message. Here's a recent example of clear abuse: stackoverflow.com/posts/34826036/revisions (and it's beginning to look like I'm gonna have to step in again, bloody hell).
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 6:52
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    FWIW I don't think your edits were purely cosmetic or anything like that. Certainly not on the same level as what I just linked to. But it is true that you're making far too many edits in a short period of time, and it is true that the site lacks affordances around making significant iterative edits to long-form posts with minimal risk of losing work.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 6:54
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    @BoltClock I will try to restrain myself and approach it differently since it has been brought to my attention. This is another thing that I didn't know was an issue and am still trying to get my head around why it should be like that, to discourage people from improving their answers cosmetically or how they see fit even, but I understand it's just a balancing act with other factors.
    – clearlight
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 6:57
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    "One issue here is the markup language is unique to Stack Overflow" Not really. Markdown has become very standard. You can get lots of different Markdown editors that run on your local computer or mobile device. I personally have MarkdownPad installed on my Windows box. Most programmer's text editors have Markdown-support modules. Use Google to find one you like. The only thing we really have that's unique is Stack Snippets, and that's just a wimpy version of JSFiddle anyway. :-)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 7:49
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    Ah, I guess I don't get around enough. I will definitely look into it! I don't think the onus of the site is to pander to every idiosyncrasy. Just looking for a way to make it work. I'm getting the hang of more of how this all works gradually. Thanks again. Much appreciated.
    – clearlight
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 7:52
  • I do this all the time, too. What I try to do is group by edits in 5-minute clusters because that won't lead to every single edit pushing the post back up (I think).
    – Pekka
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 16:04
  • there are some decent markdown editors out there (like vscode and markdown monster), you could use them to draft your questions prior to posting them. It'll give you an opportunity to make as many changes at whatever pace you desire, without any side effects (probably won't be a problem from mods, but possibly from question answerers or folks seeing your question bumped often).
    – user1228
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 18:18
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    Wonder how feasible it would be to have a "Minor edit" checkbox in edit mode that wouldn't bump your question/answer back up to the front-page. Something that Wikipedia/Confluence seem to have to avoid notifying watchers of changes that only fix typos. Not sure if part of getting bumped up again is to protect against drastically changing posts later on without anyone noticing? If so, I guess this wouldn't work. Just a thought though Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 9:24
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    The self-diagnosis part of your question struck a chord with me. Have you considered getting professional help for that, instead of struggling with it by yourself and figuring everything out more slowly than necessary?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 11:10
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    @CodeCaster I've seen counselors a few times in my life at key crises points. i don't recall discussing those particular concerns, but no one ever suggested that I was out of bounds or needed other help or medicine. I've accepted it and managed this stuff for decades. Not trying to do psychoanalysis here or go for pity or that kind of help or advice. My point is that while someone like my daughter can write a essay after maybe 1 or 2 drafts, I'd have to do 50 or more edits to get it into high quality form and I seriously doubt there's much could do about that w/o some uncomfortable tradeoff.
    – clearlight
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 15:27

3 Answers 3

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Does the site value contributions of people with disabilities? Yes, definitely. People with OCD, on the autism spectrum, who have emotional disorders, and so forth often find this site to be a wonderful refuge because (A) it focuses on technical skill, not on personality or emotion, (B) it allows them to help others in an environment where they won't be judged on their [perceived] interpersonal deficiencies, (C) collaborative editing and refinement is encouraged (to a reasonable extent), helping you to feel less "on your own", and so on.

Does the site do enough to accommodate contributions of people with disabilities? Maybe not. Why not? I can only speak for myself, not the team that runs the site, but most likely because we don't know what else we should be doing in the way of accommodation. It's difficult because everyone is different, and we need to make sure that no one is able to take advantage of any accommodations that are provided as a way to abuse the system. Unlike in the real world, say with your employer, we can't simply document that you have a disability and create a plan of accommodation. On the Internet, anyone can claim anything they want to, and use that as a means for abuse. It's a horrible thing, to be honest, but it is a concern. Also, the same things I mentioned above that make this site a refuge for people with certain types of social "disorders"—specifically, the focus on content rather than people—also makes it difficult to provide individual, personalized accommodations.

If you have ideas about how to increase the value of the site for anyone, but especially people with disabilities, then I encourage you to share them. They might get ignored by the team, but at least if you share them, no one can use the excuse that they didn't know.

I just got PM'd by a moderator who said I was excessive and he thought I was trying to get attention to nudge out other posts and editing makes it come up front and disrupts annoys others. I was not aware of that. It was never my intention and I would not want to do that.

This is a perfect example of the difficult balance that we have to strike. There are users who will abuse the system, repeatedly editing their post to bump it to the top of the "active" list, ensuring that more people will see it. Edits "bump" a post to "active" status by design for a great number of reasons, moderation being one of the most important, but when done repeatedly, it gets very annoying to other users and is a way of monopolizing our resources. It is very selfish behavior, and moderators will step in to stop it.

Now, obviously, this was not your motivation—but how was a moderator to know that? Well, maybe they could have been more careful and looked at the quality of the edits you were making, and determined that you weren't simply making trivial edits as a way to abuse the system. Or maybe they were that conscientious, and each of your individual edits were, when taken out of context, completely trivial. I don't know. I believe that it wasn't your intention, and you did a fabulous job asking this question, so I really want to make it clear that we do value your contributions, we appreciate your efforts to continuously improve the things you have contributed, and we applaud the fact that you've made great strives in your life to overcome your disabilities.

What solutions exist? Well, you could do the revisions locally, in an editor on your computer, and only submit them once you have something non-trivial. That way, you have all the time in the world, and can make as many changes as you want to without disrupting anyone. Sort of like how might push changes iteratively to a local Git repository, and only push them to the master when you have a finished product that you're relatively happy with. I'm not sure that the onus needs to be on this website to provide you with that feature when it already exists elsewhere.

If you really like the website's editor and preview, you could just do all of this in your browser, without hitting the "Submit" button. Unfortunately, there isn't a side-by-side preview area—I think this would be a great feature for everyone, not just those with disabilities, and it has been proposed several times, but no action has been taken on that front.

I just don't think people should be punished for working or thinking differently. I don't think letting people at least try to improve their answers in whatever way they can would or should be a bad thing. Wouldn't it just improve the site while helping others, and even the contributors and in the long run tend to improve the quality of the site?

Yes, yes, agree. You just ran into an edge case—one that I think you understand now, and one that I'm just not sure how we fix.

I can get good results but I've never been able to do it quickly or head on. I just have never been able to get things right the first time in many cases. I make a lot of mistakes. I have some good days and a lot of bad days. …

Maybe I can't work as fast or keep up with the prototypal programmer or expert here, but I still think I can be of assistance and create things of value. I want to.

I think you are vastly underestimating yourself. Everyone I know is like this, and the smartest and most talented of people that I know are probably even more like this than the average person. I'm reminded of one of my favorite blog posts by Raymond Chen, a developer at Microsoft:

I wrote two lines of code yesterday

They were both wrong.

This is great because it illustrates that it happens even to the best of us. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you, or that you aren't a good programmer, or that you can't be of tremendous value to a company, a website, or an entire community.

It honestly doesn't matter that you get something right the first time. It matters that you learn from your mistakes and that you get it right the next time.

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    Thank you SO much! That is perfect. Appreciate it. Each time I'm dinged I do try to improve. I know I've overreacted and probably annoyed people but I love this place and I respect the great design in so many ways and people like you who are sincere and helpful.
    – clearlight
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 7:11
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    I needed this too today, thanks.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 7:33
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    @BoltClock Someone mentioned to me the in another post that you mods work pretty hard and have a pretty heavy load. Having not seen behind the curtain it's hard to envision perfectly but I am learning anecdotally from visits to meta. I respect that, learning to understand more what it's like form your perspective and why an action that may feel unfairly maligning to a user is not intended like that and may not be that way at all in the broader context.
    – clearlight
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 8:00
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    @clearlight: It's all good. There are other battles I'm fighting as well (which is the actual reason for my comment). We just need to be reminded of that every now and then, because it's (understandably) all too easy to get caught up and forget.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 8:03
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    @BoltClock. Thanks for your service, because this site works amazingly well and helps a lot of people in the real world. Your efforts make a difference.
    – clearlight
    Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 8:05
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    "Unfortunately, there isn't a side-by-side preview area" There is a nice user script for this Side By Side Editing. It's also built in to SOX Commented Jan 27, 2017 at 20:58
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    Another great post Cody!
    – user692942
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 9:18
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I really like your idea of having a draft area that could be saved between sessions without making a formal update submission. I often need hours and sometimes days to formulate some questions or answers. I would love it if Stack Overflow would allow me to save a private draft.

I know that automatically saving supposedly exists and that my edits should still be there when I come back, but if I don't hit a save button and there is no [drafts] area for me to go back to, then I don't really trust it.

As was mentioned, one could save drafts on the computer and then submit them when ready. However, it would be much more convenient if this functionality were built into the website. I regularly work on different computers with different operating systems. It's just not convenient to save drafts other places.

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    "It's just not convenient to save drafts other places." I'm a user and big fan of SimpleNote. You can save anything and everything you want in plain text (or use Markdown, since that's also plain text), and then have it accessible on virtually any OS imaginable by using a rich client, and/or access it via the web. Not affiliated with them, just a satisfied customer. At any rate, I wouldn't oppose a draft area. Documentation has one, so the technical hurdle has already been jumped. (At least, mostly—it's got a fair number of bugs.)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 11:30
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To complement Suragch's helpful suggestion (add the ability to save private drafts) with a suggestion that addresses the frequent "bumping" issue:

As on Wikipedia, the site could provide the option to opt out of a bump with a check box labeled something like "This is a minor edit."[1]

I too frequently revise my posts, and while I've never been admonished for doing so, I often wonder whether I am generating too much "noise" with small, incremental edits (that are too small to warrant a bump every time, but in aggregate can make a difference).


[1] Preventing abuse:

  • To prevent others from sneaking in malicious edits: restrict the ability to mark edits as minor to the OP.

  • To prevent spammers from later sneaking in malicious edits to their own posts: enforce a minimum reputation threshold (specific value TBD) for use of the this-is-a-minor-edit feature. The rationale is: spammers won't put in the time and effort needed to build up reputation just so they can spam.

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    That's a really good idea!
    – duplode
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 20:23
  • I mentioned the same idea to the mod who told me he was about to lock my post if I didn't stop editing it and he said every time a minor edit is suggested here, and it has been a few times, it is shutdown because it could be abused. I think I asked him how, or something, but that was the end of the dialog, I never got a reply.
    – clearlight
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 20:41
  • I found this: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252249/…
    – clearlight
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 20:51
  • @clearlight: Very curious. I personally can't think of a way in which this can be abused. I wish we knew what the mod meant, so we could at least discuss it here.
    – mklement0
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 20:57
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    @clearlight and mklement0 "I personally can't think of a way in which this can be abused" -- One possibility I can think of is marking a bad edit as minor to sneakily reduce its visibility. (I'm not really sure about how important the active questions feed is for spotting bad edits, so I can't tell how much of a problem that might be in practice.)
    – duplode
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:21
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    @duplode: Good point, but that's easily remedied by restricting the availability of the feature to the OP.
    – mklement0
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 1:47
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    Indeed -- that would stop abuse for pretty much all purposes except self-vandalism. Another countermeasure might be a toggle to show minor edits in the feed, like the one in Wikipedia, to be used by edit patrollers.
    – duplode
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 2:40
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    Spammers would want a way to hide their edits, and that is often a hard enough problem to combat as it is.
    – halfer
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 22:10
  • @halfer: Good point - please see my update.
    – mklement0
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 0:41
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    Yeah, I think I've suggested something similar in the past, so my readability edits do not disturb the front page too much. +1
    – halfer
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 8:36

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